Ecollar Obedience and Force Fetch

[Grommet]

I was talking with a pro trainer yesterday about ecollar use during FF training and it got me thinking. How many of you use momentary stimulation vs continuous stimulation for various training situations? And why do you use one vs the other in that situation?

[Dakotazeb]

I had a problem with my dog with her delivery. She wanted to drop birds short, 6-7 feet from me. I took her to a trainer. He put her through a FF program and if she dropped the bird and pick it up on command he gave her a "nick". Basically using the e-collar in place of a ear pinch or toe hitch. That way when i got her back I had a way to enforce the retrieve in the field. Work great.

[Neil]

I was talking with a pro trainer yesterday about ecollar use during FF training and it got me thinking. How many of you use momentary stimulation vs continuous stimulation for various training situations? And why do you use one vs the other in that situation?

I use both, depending on the exercise. Continuous for aversion, momentary for most all else. I have never used one for FFing, but you would use continuous.

This is unsolicited, but if you want your Boykin FF ed and it is your first dog, either have an experienced spaniel pro do it or consult closely with one. Boykins are great dogs, but usually their temperament does not tolerate heavy handedness. They can hold a grudge and sull up on you. The males particularly can be a caution. I can tell you stories.

[polmaise]

I was talking with a pro trainer yesterday about ecollar use during FF training and it got me thinking. How many of you use momentary stimulation vs continuous stimulation for various training situations? And why do you use one vs the other in that situation?

How many different dogs going through the same program? and how many through the trainer you were talking to ? What did the pro say ?

[gundogguy]

Instead of a long diatribe on this process this video does a good job in explaining the process e collar force training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paKEj47Em54

[mnaj_springer]

I view the e-collar as long (or short) invisible leash or check cord, and then use nick or continuous accordingly.

Personally, I don't use the e-collar with FF... I just like to feel how much pressure is being applied for it. Now if that means I must wade out into a duck slough to pinch an ear, so be it. That's the choice I have made.

But honestly, my experience has been that once collar conditioned properly, I hardly ever use the collar, and when I do it's the vibrate setting to get the dogs attention.

[Grommet]

How many different dogs going through the same program? and how many through the trainer you were talking to ? What did the pro say ?

I'm not sure how many dogs but he has been training professionally for many years (mainly labs but pointing dogs and spaniels as well). His method of FF used a series of nicks until the dog complied. To me it just appeared to confuse the dog. I feel like continuous stimulation until compliance is achieved is a clearer form of communication for the dog. I was just wondering what others did. I've never FF'ed a dog myself but I have collar conditioned my dogs and used it for obedience. For obedience I use nicks as a substitute for a tug on the leash. They figure it out very quickly with the lowest level to get a response.

[polmaise]

How many different dogs going through the same program? and how many through the trainer you were talking to ? What did the pro say ?

I'm not sure how many dogs but he has been training professionally for many years (mainly labs but pointing dogs and spaniels as well). His method of FF used a series of nicks until the dog complied. To me it just appeared to confuse the dog. I feel like continuous stimulation until compliance is achieved is a clearer form of communication for the dog. I was just wondering what others did. I've never FF'ed a dog myself but I have collar conditioned my dogs and used it for obedience. For obedience I use nicks as a substitute for a tug on the leash. They figure it out very quickly with the lowest level to get a response.

interesting ? for me as I thought it was a conditioning process rather than a compliance ? So your observation with the 'Pro' was different to what is or has been achieved?....Your slant on it so to speak?..The concept of 'conditioning' may be lost when compliance is priority perhaps?

[oldbeek]

Instead of a long diatribe on this process this video does a good job in explaining the process e collar force training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paKEj47Em54

I used constant pressure with light stem during FF. I used the Standing stone vidios as a guide. Rick Smith method of a flank collar with continuous stem worked good for me on whoa. I transitioned from flank lead to flank e collar.

[crackerd]

I feel like continuous stimulation until compliance is achieved is a clearer form of communication for the dog.

Like Robert said:

...I thought it was a conditioning process rather than a compliance ? So your observation with the 'Pro' was different to what is or has been achieved?....Your slant on it so to speak?..The concept of 'conditioning' may be lost when compliance is priority perhaps?

And continuous stimulation ain't the way to train a flushing dog or, particularly, a retrieving gundog such as a Boykin - for compliance or e-collar conditioning.

MG

[mnaj_springer]

And continuous stimulation ain't the way to train a flushing dog or, particularly, a retrieving gundog such as a Boykin - for compliance or e-collar conditioning.

MG

Why not?

[crackerd]

Because continuous is preventive use of the e-collar, a/k/a "direct pressure," and it's also reactive training. Momentary stimulation - a nick - is proactive use of the e-collar, which constitutes indirect pressure, and it's also progressive training that advances the dog to the highest level of work where the e-collar is worn but almost never used.

In other words, the dog isn't jolted out of the blue (or nagged) on a "correction," doesn't fear the e-collar because it's been trained on it instead of by it, nor have any apprehension about working while wearing a necklace; in fact, usually the opposite, because when the e-collar comes out, the dog recognizes it's fun time for going to work.

MG

[Grommet]

Crackerd,

I see your point in general. What didn't make sense to me is the use of the nick for conditioning FF. If you are using an ear pinch or pulling a toe you don't stop until the dog has fetched the item. That seems easy for the dog to understand...command followed by pressure until the dog complies with the command then the pressure stops...do what you say and the pressure stops...in other words the dog learns he can make the pressure stop by complying with the command fetch. When you use a nick you give a command followed by a nick, maybe the dog figures out to put it in his mouth maybe he doesn't but either way after a moment the pressure is gone he didn't have to do anything to make it stop. To me that seems more like nagging and more confusing to the dog.

Also I am not talking about training Boykins specifically just FF in general.

[crackerd]

grommet, most retriever trainers force fetch conventionally, with the ear pinch. Some of them then overlay the e-collar (after the dog has been force fetched) for using the nick after the "Fetch!" command (the nick followed by a repeating of the command so the dog can credit itself for having complied with the command). Don't know any trainers who rely solely on the e-collar for imparting force fetch from the start.

Never overlaid the collar for FF myself, but after "chronic" canine civil disobedience by one of my field trial dogs, it's sure more of a thought now than it has been...

That's not a Boykin, by the way - Boykins are sort of as Neil noted high on the sensitivity scale and you need to be cautious but decisive in force fetching them. Nor would I use anything but the ear-pinch with a Boykin, namely because spaniel ears give you so much of a sensitive area to work with. And once done with FF, a Boykin's not likely to be "fall out of compliance" in the retrieving department, either.

MG

[mnaj_springer]

Because continuous is preventive use of the e-collar, a/k/a "direct pressure," and it's also reactive training. Momentary stimulation - a nick - is proactive use of the e-collar, which constitutes indirect pressure, and it's also progressive training that advances the dog to the highest level of work where the e-collar is worn but almost never used.

In other words, the dog isn't jolted out of the blue (or nagged) on a "correction," doesn't fear the e-collar because it's been trained on it instead of by it, nor have any apprehension about working while wearing a necklace; in fact, usually the opposite, because when the e-collar comes out, the dog recognizes it's fun time for going to work.

MG

I'm still unsure of what you're saying... Preventive and proactive seem very similar. Maybe I don't understand how you're using the terms "direct pressure" and "indirect pressure."

I do agree that a well conditioned dog doesn't fear the e-collar, and in fact likes it.

[crackerd]

Preventive (and direct pressure) is your using your "invisible or imaginary leash" to whoa or stop the dog without any command preceding the stimulation.

Proactive (and indirect pressure) is your using a command that the dog knows, whether verbal or whistle, then when the dog complies with that command, you give it a nick (generally at a low level), followed immediately by your repeating the command, whether verbal or whistle, to "tell" the dog it's done the right thing and should now await your next command.

Lot (lot) more progressive and fairer to the dog than direct pressure, regardless how you have the e-collar expressing it (vibrate, tone, stimulation).

Use direct pressure on a retriever going for a mark or running a blind, and instead of stopping it, you'll only spur it into the next county or lake.

MG

[chrokeva]

Thank you for that simple explanation Crackerd! I wish I would have read your explanation several months ago.
When training my little cocker (with the help of a pro) we used the indirect pressure method almost exclusively and I had a very hard time grasping it. My pro use to tell me it was using the collar like a "yes" instead of a "no".
He also tells me not to use the collar when she is doing wrong but wait until she is doing it right then give her the nick (yes).
It really is a new way of training for me and I still struggle with it.

[mnaj_springer]

Proactive (and indirect pressure) is your using a command that the dog knows, whether verbal or whistle, then when the dog complies with that command, you give it a nick (generally at a low level), followed immediately by your repeating the command, whether verbal or whistle, to "tell" the dog it's done the right thing and should now await your next command.

So this essentially is clicker training with an e-collar? When the dog complies you give a nick in the place of a click?

Also, the direct pressure you referred to is NOT how I use an e-collar.

[crackerd]

So this essentially is clicker training with an e-collar? When the dog complies you give a nick in the place of a click?

That's a novel way of looking at it, and it may entail a tad of clicker, psychologically. Although a nick couldn't be construed as a reward al a the clicker - nor do you give the nick every time as the dog complies. Because retrievers are trained based on obedience already in place before you start training with indirect pressure, they're going to comply 98% of the time with the original command. That's obedience. Should the dog comply with that command, then proceed to take the wrong cast or go where it shouldn't, you repeat the command, this time followed by the nick the instant the dog sits as commanded, and then the command given again. That's indirect pressure - you are not stimulating the dog for what it did wrong but to "clear its head" through what it's done right and start afresh with what you want the dog to do.

Now tell us how you do it

Also, the direct pressure you referred to is NOT how I use an e-collar.

MG

[polmaise]

you are not stimulating the dog for what it did wrong but to "clear its head" through what it's done right and start afresh with what you want the dog to do.
MG

That's a 'nugget' right there 'schoolboy'

[CDN_Cocker]

I don't believe in using continuous for anything, that's just too much pressure. A quick nick is all that is required to get a dog's attention.

[aksportsman]

I don't believe in using continuous for anything, that's just too much pressure. A quick nick is all that is required to get a dog's attention.

I don't think you are taking into account the situation here, not sure how you can take force fetching to the collar with just a quick nick... the training is simply not about getting attention.

[mnaj_springer]

Crackerd, thanks for the explanation. I think I'd have to see it just to be sure I understand it before I'd try it.

I use my e-collar like a checkcord or a leash, as I said already. Take the recall command for example... I teach my dog what it means first, without consequence for not following through, just teaching. Once they know it (and done a lot of reps), I teach them about pressure. I pull on the checkcord (pressure) and then command "come." Once they start coming when they feel the pressure I switch to the command first and then the pressure of they do not obey. Then I overlay the CC and e-collar so they understand the new stimulus and how to react to it.

After that I hardly ever use the collar. If I do, it is how I'd use a CC. Continuous until they turn off the pressure or if I would've just given a quick tug, then a nick.

[polmaise]

For me 'Personally' , some get this direct pressure /in-direct pressure thing mixed up ? ..Many who also use the philosophy of clicker' also get this 'nick' thing wrong with timing and understanding ?
When those that 'mix it up' with all the variants available at the touch of a button on the internet and elsewhere :roll:
Unless I'm getting it completely wrong..So educate me ? please . The OP is 'Ecollar Obedience and Force Fetch' ..
That is two different things ..well several actually but mnag has them bagged as one .
Question?...If you don't hardly use it then why use it at all ?
I see lots that 'tug' on a lead when the dog is pulling and say 'Heel' at the same time?. ...I bet the dog at that time when it's pulling on that lead thinks ''heel'' means ''pull'' ?

[mnaj_springer]

Polmaise, oops, the language barrier must be getting in the way!

I have not "bagged them together." In fact I don't use the e-collar for FF, which I stated previously. I've only been commenting on obedience with the e-collar.

But I use it, and condition for its use, because dogs are not perfect, and even the best dogs will blow off commands under the right (wrong) circumstances. When that moment comes, I want to be able to enforce the command regardless of where I am in relation to the dog. And when the dog thinks commands will be enforced at any distance, they will be reliable at any distance.

I also like them for the occasional "trash breaking."

[Swampbilly]

[CDN_Cocker"]I don't believe in using continuous for anything, that's just too much pressure. A quick nick is all that is required to get a dog's attention.

Am assuming you don't train Retrievers( labs) thru a complete FF'ch program.
(Respectfully)

[CDN_Cocker]

[CDN_Cocker"]I don't believe in using continuous for anything, that's just too much pressure. A quick nick is all that is required to get a dog's attention.

Am assuming you don't train Retrievers( labs) thru a complete FF'ch program.
(Respectfully)

No I do not train labs you are correct. For my purposes I only trained FF to FTP

[Swampbilly]

[CDN_Cocker"]I don't believe in using continuous for anything, that's just too much pressure. A quick nick is all that is required to get a dog's attention.

Am assuming you don't train Retrievers( labs) thru a complete FF'ch program.
(Respectfully)

No I do not train labs you are correct. For my purposes I only trained FF to FTP

Gotcha'.
So-
(And just curious),
You don't do a low level burn initially to the pile to start 'em off (?)
And no continuous in transitioning from ear pinch to collar FETCH on the table.(?)

Have never FF'd a Spaniel..and with what M.G. mentioned in terms of pressure in regards to a Spaniels' MO.-would be my guess why you don't, (although that pressure not overwhelming).

[CDN_Cocker]

No I don't. Initially when I got to pile work even a nick would overwhelm him (new situation I guess adds stress) so I had to be sporadic even with those until he got going. I'm sure people do, but for my dog anything more than a nick will cause him to shut down. Spaniels for the most part are quite soft and not as forgiving as most labs I have seen when it comes to corrections. For me personally a nick was all I needed. Even while still on the table, while transitioning to collar from ear I used the nick. At that point he was already diving to get the bumper with the ear pinch so the nick was basically just being done to correlate the two. I may be wrong in the way I did it but it is the way that worked best for my dog. Continuous collar pressure (even low) causes him to shut down or spin, neither of which I want.

[Neil]

I do not find Spaniels soft, my oldest male Boykin was tough, and hard. He would keep retrieving dove when the temps in the 90's and the Labs were laid up in the shade, and I often had to break ice for him when duck hunting. He fought and killed a badger, and retrieved many wing tipped geese. His name was Blueduck, and he lived up to his namesake.

I think it important to understand this to successfully train them.

Pam Kadlec calls them sensitive, but hardheaded. They don't react well to nagging or heavy hands, they learn quickly and are eager to please, but will shut down if they judge you unfair by forcing them when they don't understand the command. Boykins made me become a better trainer. You must train through each step, you cannot go 1 2 4 5, and for sure not 1 3 2 5, their minds just don't work that way.

Some will say I am generalizing, but some 20 Boykins after Blueduck, tells me they are similar in temperament. And for an old pointer trainer they were a revelation. I have found most setters, goldens, and Brittanys much softer.

[CDN_Cocker]

I do not own a Boykin. I also believe most that own springers and cockers would tell you they are a lot less hard headed in general than their brown dog counterparts. I was strictly speaking from my own experience with my dog. Results may vary

[Neil]

I do not own a Boykin. I also believe most that own springers and cockers would tell you they are a lot less hard headed in general than their brown dog counterparts. I was strictly speaking from my own experience with my dog. Results may vary

Agreed, I just have not found any of the Spaniels soft.

[Gordon Guy]

I noticed that my Gordon will start balking and give me a slower response when I use the e-collar on continuous (Set at the lowest level I can detect a response). I guess that could be her "Shutting down". At that point I find a good place to stop after she complies with my next command and come back to it the next day going over the command again. She seems much more compliant if I don't use the e-collar and use the ear pinch if needed. I would think the e-collar is less stress. Maybe she's not thoroughly conditioned to the collar???

Some folks have used the term "shut down" after their dog received "Too much" stimulation, nick vs continuous. When you notice the dog shut's down what do you do to finish the training session? Do you just finish on a good note and start again some other time without stimulation?

The guy that's in the Youtube video, in one of the previous comments states that if a dog is slow to respond to the command "Fetch" the trainer isn't using enough pressure, i.e. I understand him to mean Increase the stimulation.

If a trainer discontinues the training session when the dog shuts down, doesn't the dog win by manipulating the situation?

I'm learning here..help me

[polmaise]

I just have not found any of the Spaniels soft.

Try a Cocker ?...but you have to find them first ..
Seriously, you 'con' them little buggers .

[Neil]

Some of your questions need more expertise, but as for the dog winning, I have never known to keep score. So I don't either. Training a dog is often two steps forward and one step back. As long as we are making progress I don't care if he slides back a little. Saying the dog is winning sounds like an ego thing on the trainers part. I am looking to having a trained dog, if I want to win at something, I play checkers.

[Gordon Guy]

Neil, Don't get hung up on one word...

helpful...think helpful

[Neil]

Neil, Don't get hung up on one word...

helpful...think helpful

win by manipulating the situation

seem grievous enough to earn my response. I think it very helpful to those that let their egos look at every encounter with their dog as a contest, instead of a team with the same goals. Perhaps it is my tone that is off putting.

[Gordon Guy]

Neil, Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I'll consider what you said.

I found what I needed by viewing the video again, at 7:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paKEj47Em54

[gonehuntin']

No need to post here. Nicely stated Crackered.