Trouble locating shot birds.

[getzapped]

So i took the dog out for first time shooting birds. I dropped 9 birds in the field. She pointed 8 i shot 6. (Im not a veru good shotgunner). 2 i shot too quickly and there wasnt much left of them. So the problem i have is that the dog is having a hard time finding the downed birds that have been shot. She found 1. I found 2 more one was never recovered. It went like this. Dog points, i move up slowly to where she was pointing, kick the bird up, dog breaks, i shoot. The bird falls the dog has no idea where it went. The one she did find was because i had her looking in the area it went down. How do i improve this?

[mnaj_springer]

How much work have you done with "marking?" How much retrieving have you done in that kind of cover?

I think you need to figure out the problem. Was it the cover being too tall? Is she not looking the right direction? Does she have the desire to find the dead birds?

I wouldn't worry much on a first hunt. Young dogs are inconsistent.

[CDN_Cocker]

Mnaj hit the nail on the head. Dog hasn't had enough marking practice. Sounds like maybe you've put lots of emphasis into bird finding but no so much on retrieving. Work on retrieving (dead birds, dummies, etc) and increasing the lengths of the throws (you can do this by making the dog stay and you walk away and then throw). Marking is definitely something that needs to be practiced in order to become better at it. This is why labs and other retrievers do so many. I am a little surprised though that the dog did not scent the downed birds, but I think if you build this retrieve desire it will make the dog hunt harder for downed game in order to get the retrieve out of it.

[getzapped]

She does love to fetch. We are still working on coming straight back to me. Yes it was tall cover. I just assumed she could scent it and find it. I guess i will be working on retrieving in tall cover and see if that will help. I think that maybe she doesnt understand yet that they are dead.

[Neil]

This time of year the poor scenting conditions (heat, pollen, shifting wind, dust, etc) makes finding downed birds tough for experienced dogs. Go easy, it will workout.

[oldbeek]

So i took the dog out for first time shooting birds. I dropped 9 birds in the field. She pointed 8 i shot 6. (Im not a veru good shotgunner). 2 i shot too quickly and there wasnt much left of them. So the problem i have is that the dog is having a hard time finding the downed birds that have been shot. She found 1. I found 2 more one was never recovered. It went like this. Dog points, i move up slowly to where she was pointing, kick the bird up, dog breaks, i shoot. The bird falls the dog has no idea where it went. The one she did find was because i had her looking in the area it went down. How do i improve this?

Your Quote " She was pointing, I kick the bird up, DOG BREAKS, I shoot. Dog has no idea where it went." Train the dog to hold, at least till shot, preferably shot and fall. Other comments about training fetch in tall cover and distance also apply.

[mnaj_springer]

Getzapped, keep in mind that young dogs that haven't had practice retrieving in thick cover with poor scenting conditions may give up quickly. Experience, through training and hunting, gives them the confidence to continue the dead bird search.

[greg jacobs]

Just a pup isn't she? I wouldn't worry.

[getzapped]

It is completely a no pressure situation. The trainer has us working on steady to shot. She has been stready to flush for a while, its just takin some time keepin her still until shot. She will get it eventually. She is only 8 1/2 months old. I'm not putting a great deal.of pressure on her, we are just out havin fun right now. I just wanted to make sure i wasnt encountering a pronlem that needed immediate correction. We will keep.workin on it. Thanks for the advice.

[Soarer31]

How can that be??
You say ... Dog breaks on the flush ?.... and yet the dog doesn't see where the bird falls??
Is the dog searching for the bird?
May be the dog gets distracted from the gun blast causing the dog to take its eyes off the falling bird?

[getzapped]

Here is what i think happened. She never expected the bird to fall, every other time we train the bird just keeps flyin. It was a new area for her and the weed were pretty high. She was searching but it was almost like a frantic search. If that makes any sense.

[Neil]

Here is what i think happened. She never expected the bird to fall, every other time we train the bird just keeps flyin. It was a new area for her and the weed were pretty high. She was searching but it was almost like a frantic search. If that makes any sense.

Makes lots of sense, she is learning, love the enthusiasm that frantic conveys.

[slistoe]

Here is the thing that makes internet training so hard. One poster said not enough marking practice - but really it could be just the opposite as well. It sounds to me like the dog was using its eyes to search - being too used to seeing and object fall and then having it lay right there to run for and get. Not enough use of the nose in locating fetch objects. When the falling object (bird) landed in heavy cover the pup ran around frantically "looking" for the bird.
Get some orange training dummies and throw them on a mowed lawn mixed in with the white ones - they disappear in plain sight to the dog forcing it to use it's nose to locate what it knew from the flight was there. Then gradually make the fetching more difficult by throwing the marks into the edges of heavy cover and then deeper into the cover itself to develop depth perception in your pup across uneven cover/terrain.

[getzapped]

That makes alot of sense to me. I think you are right, she was looking and not scenting.

[CDN_Cocker]

She does love to fetch. We are still working on coming straight back to me. Yes it was tall cover. I just assumed she could scent it and find it. I guess i will be working on retrieving in tall cover and see if that will help. I think that maybe she doesnt understand yet that they are dead.

Yes retrieving in cover is a must. Teaches the dog to mark an area, using not just their eyes but their ears as well. Practice practice practice. Marking is something that always needs work, so the dog learns new situations. An example is throwing a dummy/bird into the water. If you throw lots of these the dog gets real good at it... Now add in an island or an opposing river bank... The first time or 2 that you throw it all the way across, young dogs that are used to retrieving from water will just look in the water instead of going up on the land on the other side. These are all experiences a gun dog must go through to become truly successful and learn how to problem solve for itself.

[gundogguy]

Your ok with what your pup is doing at this time. here are some observations. Dogs learn to handle the frenzie of the flush through experience. Dogs that learn through experience,the running down wind of the mark, thus using their noses as they pass the birds. Every bird that has ever been shot in the history of mankind is cover with the smell of gun powder and blood, once a dog figure that out they will find your birds. Dogs and birds means one thing "Time and Tide"! Generally I like to make those first few shot flyers in lighter cover before moving to the heavier stuff. Chance are you overwhelmed the pup with the stiffness of the cover and conditions. Keep steadying to flush it will become your best friend..

[RayGubernat]

There may be several different things going on here, most of which I would not worry about, as they will sort themselves out.

First off, I would not plan to kill that many birds in a training session for youngster just learning the ropes. One killed bird is OK, two is fine three is about all you should do for a single training session.

Secondly, the dog may benefit from some yardwork that is focused on encouraging it to use its nose.

I teach all my dogs to "hunt dead" in the yard. I take the smallest doggie treats and when the youngster is running about in the yard, I drop a small handful(6-8) in an area, move off and drop another handful. Then I call the dog over and command "HUNT DEAD". The pup will catch scent of the treats and start rooting around, finding them. I keep encouraging with the same command until all the treats are found and eaten. I then walk nearby the other spot and command "HUNT DEAD". The pup almost always comes over, drops its head and starts snuffling for prizes. I have pointers, field trial bred ones, so getting them to drop their heads and search the dirt is not something they do naturally.

You can use this command and trained response in the field when you kill a bird. If you send the dog for the retrieve, and it is having trouble, you can help if YOU have marked the bird. Go to the area of the fall, give the hunt dead command and let the dog drop its nose and find the prize. It shouldn't take long dfor the youngster to understand tht using all of its abilities gets it to the retrieve much faster,

With pointers, they would much rather be running and finding birds than looking for a downed one, but I HATE losing birds that I've shot. My dogs have learned that they ain't goin' noplace until they come up with that shot bird. I do not let them quit searching. Sooo, they apply themselves, get it done, find the shot bird and THEN get released to hunt again.

This time of the year, it can be really difficult for a young dog to find a downed bird. The scent is airwashed, the cover is green and lush and the air is hot and still. That can make locating it hard for an experienced dog with a good mark, much less a youngster whose attention is all over the place.

Lastly, I am sure you know this part, but I gotta say it... Be patient with a young pup. Be encouraging and cheerful with your voice, not gruff, demanding or harsh. Be lavish with your praise when the dog does find the bird and even if it does not, call the dog over to you, call it up on you and when it jumps up, look it straight in the eye and give it a head scratch. Let the youngster know, no matter what, it is OK, you are still friends. That is even more important for the dog to know... when things have not gone well. Be slow to take the bird from the dog and be gentle when you do. Allowing a youngster to carry the dead bird around for a while ain't a bad idea either, as long as it doesn't chomp down on it.

RayG

[getzapped]

Im gonna try that with treats. Thanks.

[polmaise]

I teach all my dogs to "hunt dead" in the yard. I take the smallest doggie treats and when the youngster is running about in the yard, I drop a small handful(6-8) in an area, move off and drop another handful. Then I call the dog over and command "HUNT DEAD". The pup will catch scent of the treats and start rooting around, finding them. I keep encouraging with the same command until all the treats are found and eaten. I then walk nearby the other spot and command "HUNT DEAD". The pup almost always comes over, drops its head and starts snuffling for prizes. I have pointers, field trial bred ones, so getting them to drop their heads and search the dirt is not something they do naturally.

You can use this command and trained response in the field when you kill a bird. If you send the dog for the retrieve, and it is having trouble, you can help if YOU have marked the bird. Go to the area of the fall, give the hunt dead command and let the dog drop its nose and find the prize. It shouldn't take long dfor the youngster to understand tht using all of its abilities gets it to the retrieve much faster,

RayG

Sound advice 'getzapped' ..
I use similar with the Spaniels in cover that some Billy Goats would have problems eating through ! ..I throw raw tripe in the middle of it especially when the dog has not been fed ! ..Once it knows the value of a $20 note in a hawthorn hedge it will draw blood to get it

[SwitchGrassWPG]

Training partner and check cord. If you are trying to train steady to shot and fall by yourself, in the manner you described, you'll never get there. You need another individual flushing and shooting the bird while you work on keeping the dog steady through the sequence. It also doesn't hurt to let a birds fly while working through this.

For a young dog, three to four birds are a better training number than nine, especially if they don't fully grasp what is expected of them.

As stated already, try working the dog in shorter, more sparse cover to give an opportunity for success.

[getzapped]

The reason I brought 9 birds is because every other time i go out I lose some. If I bring 3 I lose one, if i bring 5 i lose 2. I figured if i brought more we would find 4-5, but these birds stuck right where i dropped them. I have had some slip out of my hand and fly away, several times I have watched the hawk swoop in and snatch em.

[RayGubernat]

The reason I brought 9 birds is because every other time i go out I lose some. If I bring 3 I lose one, if i bring 5 i lose 2. I figured if i brought more we would find 4-5, but these birds stuck right where i dropped them. I have had some slip out of my hand and fly away, several times I have watched the hawk swoop in and snatch em.

One of the biggest lessons I had to learn about training a dog was knowing when to quit. It is always best to quit a winner. This way the dog has that memory, that perfect repetition in its mind when you put it away. The way a dog's mind works, that last memory will get burned into its memory and very often will be the first thing that pops into their head when the same situation happens...whether it is tomorrow, next week or next month.

Which would you want the dog to remember... The one where the dog did it perfect and got praised or the one where they screwed up and got disciplined??

But when you have only one dog to train, have driven an hour, set everything up, have a bunch of birds to use up, etc., etc. it can be hard to say...We're done!! after the first or second repetition, pack up and head home.. The urge to see JUST ONE MORE can be real hard to deny.

RayG

[polmaise]

. The one she did find was because i had her looking in the area it went down. How do i improve this?

By repeating it I guess?

[DonF]

Sound's like maybe a couple thing's going on. Tall cover, can the pup even see over it? Why expect a pup to fetch what it can't see fall? Marking. When I work on fetching, I do it in a mowed field. My dog can see every object it's asked to retrieve. Once it's doing that, I move closer to cover and then throw the dummy to the edge of cover and then into the edge of cover. Don't throw into cover to far to start, just into it, kind of a gimme for the pup. As the pup progress's you should notice the pup going straight to the spot the dummy landed. When that happens, start throwing the dummy in farther. In time you can just start right off throwing the object into deep cover, it has learned to mark.

Back on the short grass, I'll set up several different falls that the dog can see. I go one to another and give a lead with my hand for direction. Each will be quite away's from the other's. What happens in the beginning is the the dog goes for the last object thrown, that's fine, just send it for the last one thrown. Then move around to the next and send it there. Don't throw them very close together, your dog is likely to switch on you if it see's the other or it might grab the one you sent it for and seeing the other, try two at one time. From there the routine is the same as sending the dog into cover in the beginning, with one fall except this time the dog can't see the other falls but it does know they are there. Always give a line on multiple falls or on blind falls! Use your hand and move the dog's lone of sight toward the object you want. it's nothing more than creating habits. It get's harder as you go along but simple in the beginning.