scared on the leash

tailcracken pointer · Post by **tailcracken pointer** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:13 am

I have a EP that is five months, old I have had her for a month I take her across to the park on runs but I have a dangerous road that I carry her across , but nnow she is big enough for a leash so when I put it on her she is wild as heck on it which I expected but here is what im not sure what to do she stays put and like I have to pull her to come on walk with me ? Its like she thinks I am punishing her? What do you guys think?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:17 am

Give her a treat and ignore it.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:44 am

Good reason why puppy's need a short small check cord from the start. Get her to where you let her run and put a 15" ck cord on her and then let her be. Make the ck cord out of cotton cloth's lone.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:25 pm

Does she like the park? At 4-5 month fear alerts set in again.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:36 pm

How does she react to a leash when you walk her in less stressful locations?

Bill

tailcracken pointer · Post by **tailcracken pointer** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:00 pm

I just put her on the leash to cross the dangerous street, then when we get far enough away she is hunting and covering ground awesome

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:16 pm

tailcracken pointer wrote:I just put her on the leash to cross the dangerous street, then when we get far enough away she is hunting and covering ground awesome

So, if you only put a leash on when the situation is scary and dangerous, how would you expect the dog might react to the leash?

Bill

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:22 pm

Spy Car wrote:
tailcracken pointer wrote: then when we get far enough away she is hunting and covering ground awesome
So, if you only put a leash on when the situation is scary and dangerous, how would you expect the dog might react to the leash?

Bill

Because : .................!
Or probably just 'Stravaiging' ! ...But it looks good

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:14 pm

You can put your pup on a stakeout or (or chaingang if you have any other dogs) and get out of her way. Leave the area but be in a place where you can keep an eye on her. Let her fight it without association with you. Pretty soon she will learn that resistance is futile and she'll give to the pressure.

Then you can move to the lead. If she fights it, just stand there until she quits. Don't talk to her. When she settles, take a step. Rinse and repeat.

Don't fall into thinking your poor puppy is just terrified. Some dogs are great at deceiving us...the big scaredy thrashing thing is really a hissy fit about control.

Whichever she is showing you, the technique of calm quiet control on your part will work.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:23 pm

shags wrote:You can put your pup on a stakeout or (or chaingang if you have any other dogs) and get out of her way. Leave the area but be in a place where you can keep an eye on her. Let her fight it without association with you. Pretty soon she will learn that resistance is futile and she'll give to the pressure.

Then you can move to the lead. If she fights it, just stand there until she quits. Don't talk to her. When she settles, take a step. Rinse and repeat.

Don't fall into thinking your poor puppy is just terrified. Some dogs are great at deceiving us...the big scaredy thrashing thing is really a hissy fit about control.

Whichever she is showing you, the technique of calm quiet control on your part will work.

Because further associating a lead with bad things is a good idea :roll:

Good grief.

Bill

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:38 pm

OK then...whenever your dog is acting like an idiot, give it a treat. Then it can associate poor behavior and rewards.

Whatever :roll:

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:21 pm

Spy Car wrote:
shags wrote:You can put your pup on a stakeout or (or chaingang if you have any other dogs) and get out of her way. Leave the area but be in a place where you can keep an eye on her. Let her fight it without association with you. Pretty soon she will learn that resistance is futile and she'll give to the pressure.

Then you can move to the lead. If she fights it, just stand there until she quits. Don't talk to her. When she settles, take a step. Rinse and repeat.

Don't fall into thinking your poor puppy is just terrified. Some dogs are great at deceiving us...the big scaredy thrashing thing is really a hissy fit about control.

Whichever she is showing you, the technique of calm quiet control on your part will work.
Because further associating a lead with bad things is a good idea :roll:

Good grief.

Bill

Funny -

I don't see it that way at all.

A dog has got to do what you tell them to do, when you tell them to do it and the way you tell them to do it. Not all training can be accomplished with "positive reinforcement". Sometimes discipline needs to be applied.

Calmly and patiently demonstrating to the dog that it is your way...or no way, can be, very often, an excellent approach. I don't usually do it that way myself, but then patience is a virtue that I do not have enough of.

Very low pressure and just as soon as the dog submits, it gets rewarded by being able to move off, under the handler's control of course.

Sounds like a very sound way to proceed, but hey...what do I know?

RayG

Maybe the patience thing is why women often make better dog trainers than men.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:05 pm

shags wrote:OK then...whenever your dog is acting like an idiot, give it a treat. Then it can associate poor behavior and rewards.

Whatever :roll:

Except I wouldn't give a treat to a misbehaving dog Shags. Rewards come from good behaviors. You never studied how conditioning works?

Bill

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:18 pm

shags wrote:You can put your pup on a stakeout or (or chaingang if you have any other dogs) and get out of her way. Leave the area but be in a place where you can keep an eye on her. Let her fight it without association with you. Pretty soon she will learn that resistance is futile and she'll give to the pressure.

Then you can move to the lead. If she fights it, just stand there until she quits. Don't talk to her. When she settles, take a step. Rinse and repeat.

Don't fall into thinking your poor puppy is just terrified. Some dogs are great at deceiving us...the big scaredy thrashing thing is really a hissy fit about control.

Whichever she is showing you, the technique of calm quiet control on your part will work.

this is good advice and exactly how to proceed

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:04 pm

Spy Car wrote:
shags wrote:You can put your pup on a stakeout or (or chaingang if you have any other dogs) and get out of her way. Leave the area but be in a place where you can keep an eye on her. Let her fight it without association with you. Pretty soon she will learn that resistance is futile and she'll give to the pressure.

Then you can move to the lead. If she fights it, just stand there until she quits. Don't talk to her. When she settles, take a step. Rinse and repeat.

Don't fall into thinking your poor puppy is just terrified. Some dogs are great at deceiving us...the big scaredy thrashing thing is really a hissy fit about control.

Whichever she is showing you, the technique of calm quiet control on your part will work.
Because further associating a lead with bad things is a good idea :roll:

Good grief.

Bill

Can you explain how that's a bad idea? He is teaching the dog that the lead is nothing to be concerned about. After the stake out the pup will give in to pressure on the collar.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:00 pm

Staking a dog to a post so that it fights (and fails) free itself or tethering it more dominant dogs who will drag it around are not ways to teach a dog that a lead is "nothing it should be concerned about." Quite to the contrary, this teaches a dog to fear the lead (and with good reason). These sorts of methods are not effective, and are inhumane.

Teaching dogs to heel is easy.

Bill

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:33 am

Bill,

Please tell us how many dogs you have personally seen that had a negative reaction to the chain gang? Or is it logic? I have trained over two hundred that way with none resenting it; but more importantly, Rick, Ronnie, Delmar Smith (and those they have trained to train) have used the chain gang or stake out without the reaction you predict on tens of thousands.

It works. Still I say in this case, with a pup so young, all need do is hook up the lead and when the pup settles, snap his fingers and treat the pup. Step out, ignore any reaction, snap and treat compliance, repeat.

There are a number of ways to train a dog. The chain gang is a proven tool.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:36 am

shags wrote:You can put your pup on a stakeout or (or chaingang if you have any other dogs) and get out of her way. Leave the area but be in a place where you can keep an eye on her. Let her fight it without association with you. Pretty soon she will learn that resistance is futile and she'll give to the pressure.

Then you can move to the lead. If she fights it, just stand there until she quits. Don't talk to her. When she settles, take a step. Rinse and repeat.

Don't fall into thinking your poor puppy is just terrified. Some dogs are great at deceiving us...the big scaredy thrashing thing is really a hissy fit about control.

Whichever she is showing you, the technique of calm quiet control on your part will work.

This is excellent advice, the last sentence golden.

KCBrittfan · Post by **KCBrittfan** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:37 am

Spy Car wrote:Staking a dog to a post so that it fights (and fails) free itself or tethering it more dominant dogs who will drag it around are not ways to teach a dog that a lead is "nothing it should be concerned about." Quite to the contrary, this teaches a dog to fear the lead (and with good reason). These sorts of methods are not effective, and are inhumane.

Teaching dogs to heel is easy.

Bill

I should know better than to read a training forum when I've got insomnia; now I'll never get any sleep before its time to go to work. Spy Car, I don't think you understand the chain gang or the stakeout post.

The chain gang is a long main chain with smaller drop chains attached at intervals. Chain is used because any defeat of your equipment will be extremely counter-productive and prolong the entire process. Dogs are attached to the drop chains which are spaced far enough apart so the dogs can not come in contact with each other. The main chain is firmly anchored at both ends. There is no dragging around of one dog by the other!!!! The idea for this training situation is to attach a few veteran dogs along with the new trainee, then walk away and get out of the dogs' sight. For safety's sake you need to frequently peek in on the dogs; or better yet, watch from a spot where you can see them without them knowing. The new trainee is going to fight the situation and fail (assuming you set your equipment up correctly); meanwhile, the veteran dogs calmly accept things. They learned a long time ago that fighting the equipment is futile, so they no longer try. If the trainee has a grudge it is with the collar, chain, and anchor; not with the trainer. In fact, the trainer becomes the good guy in this situation. After the trainee calms down, give him some water and affection. Commiserate with him, then walk away again. When he calms down again, go to him, pet him, release him, and let him run it off awhile before going about your normal business. The trainee will learn from the example set by the calm veteran dogs and eventually he won't fight the chain at all. The veteran dogs will also move around and adjust their positions. As they do, they will often cause the trainee's drop chain to tug on his collar. Eventually the trainee will learn to give in to those tugs and position himself so there is not tension on his collar. When this happens you have a trainee that no longer fights when his freedom is taken away by the drop chain and he gives when he feels slight tugs on that lead. Now he is ready for you to take the place of the long main chain. The drop chain (i.e. the lead) is in your hand instead of being attached to the main chain and the two of you can move about in a much smoother manner.

I skipped some details, but you get the main idea. For this training, the stake out post is just a variation of the above. The main difference is that it is usually set up for a trainer who doesn't have access to a couple of calm veteran dogs.

There is nothing inhumane about this. The equipment and/or the calm veteran dogs do most of the "heavy lifting" while the trainer's presence and affection become a reward for his good behavior. The way the equipment is used is not much different than using a proper fence to contain the dog. (By proper, I mean everything possible is done to prevent escape.) He may push on it, fight it, and try to escape it, but in the end, the fence is just a fact of life the dog has to learn to accept. Giving in to (and not being able to defeat) the lead, chain, check cord, or whatever you use also has to become an accepted fact of life for the dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:53 am

Spy Car wrote:Staking a dog to a post so that it fights (and fails) free itself or tethering it more dominant dogs who will drag it around are not ways to teach a dog that a lead is "nothing it should be concerned about." Quite to the contrary, this teaches a dog to fear the lead (and with good reason). These sorts of methods are not effective, and are inhumane.

Teaching dogs to heel is easy.

Bill

Bill, once again a definitive statement that flies directly in the face of a method used with success on all types of animals for years that not only works but one of the only ways you can break a larger animal and works for our dogs 99.9% of the time with no bad side effects. This is what makes your posts so hard to accept when you post things as fact that we all know is wrong. I agree teaching dogs to heal is normally pretty easy to do in several different ways but to tell people the number one method doesn't work and is ineffective is like telling someone that everything we have learned in the past hundred year is all wrong.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:18 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:Staking a dog to a post so that it fights (and fails) free itself or tethering it more dominant dogs who will drag it around are not ways to teach a dog that a lead is "nothing it should be concerned about." Quite to the contrary, this teaches a dog to fear the lead (and with good reason). These sorts of methods are not effective, and are inhumane.

Teaching dogs to heel is easy.

Bill
Bill, once again a definitive statement that flies directly in the face of a method used with success on all types of animals for years that not only works but one of the only ways you can break a larger animal and works for our dogs 99.9% of the time with no bad side effects. This is what makes your posts so hard to accept when you post things as fact that we all know is wrong. I agree teaching dogs to heal is normally pretty easy to do in several different ways but to tell people the number one method doesn't work and is ineffective is like telling someone that everything we have learned in the past hundred year is all wrong.

Larger animals (like horses) don't need to be "broken." One need not use the harshest and most abusive training methods.

Bill

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:24 am

KCBrittfan wrote:
Spy Car wrote:Staking a dog to a post so that it fights (and fails) free itself or tethering it more dominant dogs who will drag it around are not ways to teach a dog that a lead is "nothing it should be concerned about." Quite to the contrary, this teaches a dog to fear the lead (and with good reason). These sorts of methods are not effective, and are inhumane.

Teaching dogs to heel is easy.

Bill
I should know better than to read a training forum when I've got insomnia; now I'll never get any sleep before its time to go to work. Spy Car, I don't think you understand the chain gang or the stakeout post.

The chain gang is a long main chain with smaller drop chains attached at intervals. Chain is used because any defeat of your equipment will be extremely counter-productive and prolong the entire process. Dogs are attached to the drop chains which are spaced far enough apart so the dogs can not come in contact with each other. The main chain is firmly anchored at both ends. There is no dragging around of one dog by the other!!!! The idea for this training situation is to attach a few veteran dogs along with the new trainee, then walk away and get out of the dogs' sight. For safety's sake you need to frequently peek in on the dogs; or better yet, watch from a spot where you can see them without them knowing. The new trainee is going to fight the situation and fail (assuming you set your equipment up correctly); meanwhile, the veteran dogs calmly accept things. They learned a long time ago that fighting the equipment is futile, so they no longer try. If the trainee has a grudge it is with the collar, chain, and anchor; not with the trainer. In fact, the trainer becomes the good guy in this situation. After the trainee calms down, give him some water and affection. Commiserate with him, then walk away again. When he calms down again, go to him, pet him, release him, and let him run it off awhile before going about your normal business. The trainee will learn from the example set by the calm veteran dogs and eventually he won't fight the chain at all. The veteran dogs will also move around and adjust their positions. As they do, they will often cause the trainee's drop chain to tug on his collar. Eventually the trainee will learn to give in to those tugs and position himself so there is not tension on his collar. When this happens you have a trainee that no longer fights when his freedom is taken away by the drop chain and he gives when he feels slight tugs on that lead. Now he is ready for you to take the place of the long main chain. The drop chain (i.e. the lead) is in your hand instead of being attached to the main chain and the two of you can move about in a much smoother manner.

I skipped some details, but you get the main idea. For this training, the stake out post is just a variation of the above. The main difference is that it is usually set up for a trainer who doesn't have access to a couple of calm veteran dogs.

There is nothing inhumane about this. The equipment and/or the calm veteran dogs do most of the "heavy lifting" while the trainer's presence and affection become a reward for his good behavior. The way the equipment is used is not much different than using a proper fence to contain the dog. (By proper, I mean everything possible is done to prevent escape.) He may push on it, fight it, and try to escape it, but in the end, the fence is just a fact of life the dog has to learn to accept. Giving in to (and not being able to defeat) the lead, chain, check cord, or whatever you use also has to become an accepted fact of life for the dog.

KC, I know very well how a chain gang work. One lets doninant dogs do an owners dirty-work.

Rather than using patience and constantly owner use the harshest of methods to shortcut the process, while playing the "good guy" in the end. This stuff is 50 years behind the times.

And not the appropriate sort of technique to use with a 5 month Old that is already scared. We're it nothing but a bunch of bold young pups, maybe. This dog is beyond that stage and already has a problem one should not make worse.

Bill

Kellym · Post by **Kellym** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:40 am

Spy Car wrote:
shags wrote:You can put your pup on a stakeout or (or chaingang if you have any other dogs) and get out of her way. Leave the area but be in a place where you can keep an eye on her. Let her fight it without association with you. Pretty soon she will learn that resistance is futile and she'll give to the pressure.

Then you can move to the lead. If she fights it, just stand there until she quits. Don't talk to her. When she settles, take a step. Rinse and repeat.

Don't fall into thinking your poor puppy is just terrified. Some dogs are great at deceiving us...the big scaredy thrashing thing is really a hissy fit about control.

Whichever she is showing you, the technique of calm quiet control on your part will work.
Because further associating a lead with bad things is a good idea :roll:

Good grief.

Bill

shags advise is good. Even if you don't have other dogs the chain gain is a valuable tool. The pup learns to give to the pressure. when you move to the lead you want a loose lead not a pup that is constantly pulling on the lead. Make sure pup is calm before you take it off the chain. You may need to stand on the chain to shorten a bit but don't even look at the pup until he is calm then remove from the chain. you should then work the pup on a command lead.

http://www.huntsmith.com/#article:5

Neil . IF you have a child that wants to throw a fit in the grocery store, lay down on the floor kicking and screaming because he wants candy. Are you going to give that child a treat?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:03 am

Bill -

You are just being argumentative.

Chain gangs work and leave no imprint on the dog that a momma dog would not leave on a puppy. Stakeouts work also, with the dog's only adversary that steel pole stuck in the ground which the dog will eventually come to terms with. Doing heel/whoa drills works. Standing there with the dog on a lead, until the dog settles down... works.

You have done nothing but criticize other approaches. That is not particularly constructive. How about simply answering the OP's question? How would YOU suggest the OP proceed?

I for one would like to know.

RayG

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:24 am

Bill,

You ever train a horse?

I, too, have a problem with the nomenclature of "Break" and "Broke", but it is part of our lexicon, and most translate it to mean "trained". An untrained dog is a nuisance, an untrained horse will kill you.

Your out of your depth on this thread, some of this cannot be learned in front of a computer.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:52 am

Neil wrote:Bill,

You ever train a horse?

I, too, have a problem with the nomenclature of "Break" and "Broke", but it is part of our lexicon, and most translate it to mean "trained". An untrained dog is a nuisance, an untrained horse will kill you.

Your out of your depth on this thread, some of this cannot be learned in front of a computer.

Yes, Neil. Many.

In my younger years I helped train some of the finest horses in Southern California in dressage, three-day, hunter-jumpers, and I also conditioned polo ponies. These were the highest trained horses who competed at the most elite levels (as well as some a notch below that). Many of those horses were valued more than an average home. Trust me, I know the importance of well-trained dogs and horses, and what it takes to get there.

We didn't "break" horses, and people who used cowboy methods were considered stupid and crude. This is not the way top equines are trained.

Bill

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:23 am

Bill,

Impressive resume. I am pretty confident 90+% of those horses you conditioned were first taught to give to the halter with either a snubing post or by being tethered to another horse and "ponied".

I work hard at being a no pain trainer and use the least amount of force as I can. I once spent hours everyday over 4 months training a five year old stallion that had ran free his whole life, had never had a hand laid on him. I got there with no pain and force free, but few are willing to invest 500 hours on a horse when 3 days on a stubing post would have reduced it to a 1/10th or less.

Think of the chain gang as a snubing post.

Sorry about my out of depth comment, you are just wrong, not inexperienced.

Neil

tailcracken pointer · Post by **tailcracken pointer** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:10 am

So after reading all this, what age do you put a dog on the chain gang I do know about that method and know trainers that use it , just not sure of age to start?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:56 am

You can start at any age. I know a couple that start at 10 or 12 weeks. Most wait till they start running them in the field. I would start them young whenever you decide to teach them to lead on a leash. Puppies need to find out there are things they have to comply with when they don't want to. There is a saying that actions have consequences, and puppies as well as people need to find that out when they are young. You will find that setting boundaries is a positive thing even though it feels negative in the beginning. It is always good to know and understand just how far you can go because it takes away the pressure of having to find that point when you aren't sure. An example is a friends standard poodle who will go get her leash when we has to go out to potty. If you snap it too her collar and give the rest back to her folded so she can hold it in her mouth you don't need to go with her as she will stay in the yard. Without the leash she will leave the yard and tour the neighborhood. But she always asks to have the leash because it sets the boundaries for her so it is just one less thing to think about. We use that same method when teaching a dog to be steady by throwing the CC over the dogs back when we walk in front to flush the bird. It just helps to take pressure off of the dog because it now thinks you are making the decision instead of it having to do it.

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:00 am

I've staked out little puppies, like at 8 or 9 weeks. My dogs must learn to handle restraint because of other things we do with them; they must know how to sit or lie down quietly when tethered.
Be very careful with the little guys though, and use a short drop made of something that won't easily wrap around little legs. Cable run through old garden hose works pretty well. Never leave them unattended, always have an eye on them.

tailcracken pointer · Post by **tailcracken pointer** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:02 am

ok so next question, how long do you leave them on it ?

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:18 am

Until they give to the pressure.
When the pup sits, stands, or lies down quietly, release him. If he goes nuts when you approach, take a few steps back and wait for him to settle. When he does, approach. If he is still, release; if he isn't still, step back. Do it until he is still at your your approach. Then do some happy time with him. Warning - this whole thing can be aggravating if your dog doesn't "get it" quickly so keep your patience and also keep your mouth shut.

After happy time, you might put him back on the stakeout for Round Two. In my experience Round Two is shorter than Round One - but then I have very intelligent dogs ( setters)

:roll:

so your mileage may vary. Anyway, repeat the steps and end with happy time.

One or two rounds at most for the little pups.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:19 am

tailcracken pointer wrote:ok so next question, how long do you leave them on it ?

At least till they accept it and lay down or quit fighting. I usually left on it as long as I need to have them tied while I was working other dogs. I tend to do things as long as I need them instead of just worring about the pup. If it doesn't learn today there is always tomorrow but in all honesty it usually doesn't take too long for them to get the idea.

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:23 am

My dog here is about 5 months old IIRC

This is what I want before I release

This is acceptable to me as I approach for release

Nutmeg247 · Post by **Nutmeg247** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:37 am

shags wrote:You can put your pup on a stakeout or (or chaingang if you have any other dogs) and get out of her way. Leave the area but be in a place where you can keep an eye on her. Let her fight it without association with you. Pretty soon she will learn that resistance is futile and she'll give to the pressure.

Then you can move to the lead. If she fights it, just stand there until she quits. Don't talk to her. When she settles, take a step. Rinse and repeat.

Don't fall into thinking your poor puppy is just terrified. Some dogs are great at deceiving us...the big scaredy thrashing thing is really a hissy fit about control.

Whichever she is showing you, the technique of calm quiet control on your part will work.

What Shags describes at the level of training for loose leash walking is in fact one of the main methods "force free" trainers use, along with treats, to produce a dog that walks well on a leash (as opposed to an obedience heel). Yes, the leash involves some compulsion, but the method is considered acceptable and humane even by people who don't like or endorse other aversives as training methods. Many people even throw in "penalty yards" for pulling or struggling.

Stakeouts are opposed by those people, but not because of what Shags describes in terms of training. If you take out the chain gang or stakeout reference, it's surprising to me that the basic method of learning good leash behavior causes much controversy at all. Using the leash, it might be one area where 98% or more of trainers could find consensus as to a method being useful and desirable.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:31 pm

Spy Car wrote:
Neil wrote:Bill,

You ever train a horse?

I, too, have a problem with the nomenclature of "Break" and "Broke", but it is part of our lexicon, and most translate it to mean "trained". An untrained dog is a nuisance, an untrained horse will kill you.

Your out of your depth on this thread, some of this cannot be learned in front of a computer.
Yes, Neil. Many.

In my younger years I helped train some of the finest horses in Southern California in dressage, three-day, hunter-jumpers, and I also conditioned polo ponies. These were the highest trained horses who competed at the most elite levels (as well as some a notch below that). Many of those horses were valued more than an average home. Trust me, I know the importance of well-trained dogs and horses, and what it takes to get there.

We didn't "break" horses, and people who used cowboy methods were considered stupid and crude. This is not the way top equines are trained.

Bill

Bill -

Horses are prey animals with a particular mindset that is pre-programmed to a "flight " response. We have selected, bred and molded those abilities to our use.

Dogs are predatory animals with a completely different pre-programmed mindset. A pack of wolves(essentially big dogs) is right up there as an apex predator. The best bird dogs have very high levels of predatory genetics, that have been molded and modified to our use.

What works for a horse may not work for a dog, and vice versa.

In addition, What you need a horse to do may well be totally different from what you need a dog to do. I cannot think of a good reason to have a dog run in place or sidepass like a horse doing dressage. I cannot think of a good reason to "park out" a dog any more than I can think of a good reason to force fetch a horse to retrieve.

Even when we want the two different animals to do the same thing...it is often for very different reasons. We want a horse to stand there quietly when we dismount and not run off and leave us. We want a bird dog to stand tall on point until we can get there to flush and kill the bird.

FWIW, the methods that have been mentioned to condition a dog to performing correctly when on leash are some of the very same ones that I have seen used on some of the most successful shooting dogs in the country, by some of the most successful shooting dog( and all age) field trial trainers in the country.

RayG

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:08 pm

Clicker/treat-based operant training works on everything from insects all the way up to dolphins and whales, to say that horses and dogs need different types of training is 100% incorrect. There are some things that's been pretty well proven by peer reviewed science, and this is one of them. Any dog training methods based on dominance or pack hierarchy's have also more or less been found to be bunk too, even if they work.

If the dog has a bad association with the leash and road, putting a dog on a stakeout doesn't guarantee it will make the association with the leash and the road. If the dog just doesn't like the pressure of the leash/collar combo then the chain gang will work, but there are also less stressful ways of doing it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:07 pm

clink83 wrote:Clicker/treat-based operant training works on everything from insects all the way up to dolphins and whales, to say that horses and dogs need different types of training is 100% incorrect. There are some things that's been pretty well proven by peer reviewed science, and this is one of them. Any dog training methods based on dominance or pack hierarchy's have also more or less been found to be bunk too, even if they work.

If the dog has a bad association with the leash and road, putting a dog on a stakeout doesn't guarantee it will make the association with the leash and the road. If the dog just doesn't like the pressure of the leash/collar combo then the chain gang will work, but there are also less stressful ways of doing it.

Why do you feel it necessary to inform people who have more experience that what they and thousands of other don't know what they re talking about and their methods just don't work.. I have no doubt the methods of training and feeding work for you because you said they do and I also have no doubt that those of us that do it our way are just as successful as you are. I have no problem with you feeding and training any way you want and if you could do the same for us we can discuss what we do and we all might learn something. But when you get on just to tell the other posters they don't know what they are doing there is nothing left to talk about and most people are not going to believe what you say since you have already told them they don't know what they are doing even if they have been successful for the past 20 to 50 years doing it their way.

Think about it, you will enjoy the forum a lot more and maybe learn something too.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:42 pm

clink83 wrote:Clicker/treat-based operant training works on everything from insects all the way up to dolphins and whales, to say that horses and dogs need different types of training is 100% incorrect. There are some things that's been pretty well proven by peer reviewed science, and this is one of them. Any dog training methods based on dominance or pack hierarchy's have also more or less been found to be bunk too, even if they work.

If the dog has a bad association with the leash and road, putting a dog on a stakeout doesn't guarantee it will make the association with the leash and the road. If the dog just doesn't like the pressure of the leash/collar combo then the chain gang will work, but there are also less stressful ways of doing it.

I have to learn more about training insects. It means flea circuses are for real. What type of treat do you use? May I please have a link?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:57 am

Spy Car wrote:
shags wrote:OK then...whenever your dog is acting like an idiot, give it a treat. Then it can associate poor behavior and rewards.

Whatever :roll:

Except I wouldn't give a treat to a misbehaving dog Shags. Rewards come from good behaviors. You never studied how conditioning works?

Bill

Here we go with studies again. Forget what really works and read a study. :roll:

Charlie

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:15 am

Spy Car wrote:
shags wrote:OK then...whenever your dog is acting like an idiot, give it a treat. Then it can associate poor behavior and rewards.

Whatever :roll:

Except I wouldn't give a treat to a misbehaving dog Shags. Rewards come from good behaviors. You never studied how conditioning works?

Bill

You need to study how to get a bratty dog to walk on a lead? OK then

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:41 am

Having very successfully trained dogs and horses I understand the differences between them. I'm also aware that both species can be trained using harsh/cruel methods, and ones that are humane. The latter are more effective.

Reveling in ignorance in the work done in studying conditioning (when those understanding have informed the real world work of the highest level animal trainers in the world) is hard to fathom. Yee Haw!, or whatever :roll:

Bill

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:48 am

You wanna explain how the stakeout or chaingang method is cruel and inhumane?

If you can, you get a participation trophy.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:02 am

Spy Car wrote:Having very successfully trained dogs and horses I understand the differences between them. I'm also aware that both species can be trained using harsh/cruel methods, and ones that are humane. The latter are more effective.

Reveling in ignorance in the work done in studying conditioning (when those understanding have informed the real world work of the highest level animal trainers in the world) is hard to fathom. Yee Haw!, or whatever :roll:

Bill

You know you can teach a child the word HOT and give them a treat every time they say hot when they get near a stove, but they will never have a real meaning of the word till they put their figure on the burner and find out it hurts. Is that cruel and inhumane? Doesn't seem to be since it has happened and continues to happen and always will. Our big problem today is failing to understand and then teaching our kids and or dogs that actions have consequences and many of them hurt. I think maybe that is the way God intended it so we all would have a real reason to take responsibility for our actions and pain though pretty much harmless is a great way for us to remember the lessons we need to learn.

I fail to see where that is severe or inhumane treatment since it happens in nature everyday. Now if you are creating pain for someone or some animal just for your pleasure then it becomes a problem.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:18 am

clink83 wrote:Clicker/treat-based operant training works on everything from insects all the way up to dolphins and whales, to say that horses and dogs need different types of training is 100% incorrect. There are some things that's been pretty well proven by peer reviewed science, and this is one of them. Any dog training methods based on dominance or pack hierarchy's have also more or less been found to be bunk too, even if they work.

If the dog has a bad association with the leash and road, putting a dog on a stakeout doesn't guarantee it will make the association with the leash and the road. If the dog just doesn't like the pressure of the leash/collar combo then the chain gang will work, but there are also less stressful ways of doing it.

Clink -

You may need some practice reading what someone else has actually written... not what you THINK they have written.

Go back and read what I actually wrote in the previous post. You might just discover the little three letter word "may" in there somewhere.

I'll make it easier for you. Find this sentence....

"What works for a horse may not work for a dog, and vice versa."

Clicker type training with associated rewards can work...no doubt about it.

When your dog is chasing a pheasant toward a busy road...I wish you both luck with your clicker and I sincerely hope you get to give your dog that chunk of hotdog from your pocket.

But when my dog is chasing a flying pheasant toward a busy road, I personally want something more in the way of operant conditioning.

When I holler "whoa' to one of my dogs, it had better stop and grow roots... right then... right there... because if it does not, the dog knows, without a shadow of a doubt, it's whole world will come crashing down on top of it.

RayG

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:49 am

Spy Car wrote:Having very successfully trained dogs and horses I understand the differences between them. I'm also aware that both species can be trained using harsh/cruel methods, and ones that are humane. The latter are more effective.

Reveling in ignorance in the work done in studying conditioning (when those understanding have informed the real world work of the highest level animal trainers in the world) is hard to fathom. Yee Haw!, or whatever :roll:

Bill

Bill -

You tend to paint with a fairly broad brush.... with just a touch of arrogance too.

Efficient, effective training methods need be neither harsh cruel nor inhumane. So called "humane" methods may not be particularly efficient or effective.

The effectiveness, harshness or humaneness of any training method depends to a great degree on the application of that method by the trainer and thus is VERY dependent on the skill level of the trainer. What is a quick, efficient, effective training technique in the hands of an accomplished trainer can be an unmitigated disaster in the hands of a neophyte. Use of the e-collar is a perfect example of this.

Please be assured that when I need to train my dog to perform a sidepass, a piaffe or a flying lead change, I will ask for your assistance.

Until then, I'll take the advice of trainers who have consistently developed dogs that have repeatedly won at the highest levels in the sport of field trialing and emulate their methods as best I can.

RayG

tailcracken pointer · Post by **tailcracken pointer** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:39 pm

When looking for a stake out post on gun dog supply it had 2 ft chains, and on the reviews it said chain needed to be a bit longer , for those of you who do this what is the best length? Thanks Bryan

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:42 pm

I'm not sure it really matters. I like 5 feet about. I also like a swivel on it so the dog doesn't get choked up .

tailcracken pointer · Post by **tailcracken pointer** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:47 pm

Why in the reviews then are people complaining about the chain to short ?

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:50 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Bill -

You tend to paint with a fairly broad brush.... with just a touch of arrogance too.

Efficient, effective training methods need be neither harsh cruel nor inhumane. So called "humane" methods may not be particularly efficient or effective.

The effectiveness, harshness or humaneness of any training method depends to a great degree on the application of that method by the trainer and thus is VERY dependent on the skill level of the trainer. What is a quick, efficient, effective training technique in the hands of an accomplished trainer can be an unmitigated disaster in the hands of a neophyte. Use of the e-collar is a perfect example of this.

Please be assured that when I need to train my dog to perform a sidepass, a piaffe or a flying lead change, I will ask for your assistance.

Until then, I'll take the advice of trainers who have consistently developed dogs that have repeatedly won at the highest levels in the sport of field trialing and emulate their methods as best I can.

RayG

Ray,

Efficient, effective training methods never need to be harsh, cruel, nor inhumane. It just is not necessary, yet the harshest models persist in some quarters despite that fact.

Lectures on the differences between canines and equines are quite unnecessary.

Bill