Shaking Dokken Dummy

[tylerwitt34]

Hi Guys,

I have a lab that is just over a year that seems to be shaking the dummy once he gets to my side.
He has been force fetch at a trainer. The trainer told me to use the e-collar and give him a nick when we shakes the dummy.
I'm just worried shocking him is going to cause problems down the road with hard mouth and stuff.
He does everything else great so far.
He is a great dog with huge prey and retrieve drive.
The trainer is trying to talk me into tournament hunting with him this fall. http://horseandhunt.com/natha/index.html

[gonehuntin']

I personally wouldn't use the collar for head shaking. When he starts shaking the dummy, command NO!, HOLD! and tap him under the jaw, making him look up at you. That should do it. I really don't see how the collar would help because he's not actually refusing a command.

[mnaj_springer]

I'm with gonehuntin on this. The e-collar with a "bird" in his mouth seems like a bad idea. A light correction, as mentioned before, seems the best/safest route. Having not seen the shaking, and not knowing the extent of it, you can take this next question with a grain of salt... But could this just be a young dog/puppy thing?

[tylerwitt34]

It could be a young dog puppy thing. He is 14 months old.
But i want to let him know shaking is no good and don't want it to transfer over to live game.

The trainer said he wishes all the dogs that came to him had the drive he does.
He wants the dummy or bird really bad almost gets over excited sometimes.

When i shot birds over him or when i went out to the trainer and watched him shoot birds he never once shook a real bird.

I think i will just keep working with him and see if I can get this corrected.
I know its going to take some time.

I usually play fetch with him every day for 15-20 mins.

[Neil]

I would guess the trainer FFed him with an e-collar, if that is correct, you should use the e-collar to correct any aspect of the retrieve done wrong.

If he did or didn't, you need to call the trainer to also get his input.

The guys and gals here know a lot about dog training, but nothing about the dog. Hopefully the trainer will know both how to train and the dog.

Then you can put it all together to develop your individual program for this dog.

Neil

[tylerwitt34]

I would guess the trainer FFed him with an e-collar, if that is correct, you should use the e-collar to correct any aspect of the retrieve done wrong.

If he did or didn't, you need to call the trainer to also get his input.

The guys and gals here know a lot about dog training, but nothing about the dog. Hopefully the trainer will know both how to train and the dog.

Then you can put it all together to develop your individual program for this dog.

Neil

Neil he did use the e-collar to force fetch.
He said Ace my lab is a little mouthy and likes to shake the dummy sometimes.
Trainer also said to nick him with the e-collar when he starts to shake.

I think I will nick him on a low setting with the e-collar when he starts to shake.
Just don't want to over use the E-Collar.



I think the E-collar is a great tool as long as its not abused.
I just don't want to over use the E-collar and make more problems.

[gonehuntin']

When a dog is ff'd with a collar, he is driven to the dummy until he gets it in his mouth. Might be a few inches, might be 100 yards. Hardly any trainers, in fact none that I have ever known, use the collar for HOLD. It is anti-productive. If the dog drops a bumper, yes, he is nicked until he picks it up. The collar can cause a dog to move and this is why it is counter productive to the head shake. A tap under the chin is the best bet. Also remember, that if the dog is looking UP at you and not to the side, it is much harder for him to shake.

It is a very minor problem but one that can lead to a very serious problem, and that is playing with the bird or even bird eating. Tread carefully. You know, sometimes we MAKE problems. If a simple NO won't correct it, I might tend to ignore it rather than making it into a war. I'd have to see the dog to judge that.

[polmaise]

Is it just with a 'Dokken Dummy' ?
Is this battle necessary if it is ?
Has the dog been 'conditioned' to deliver at the 'heel position' before release ?

[tylerwitt34]

Hi Guys,

Its only a problem with the Dokken Dummy.
He won't do it with just a bumper.

He has been conditioned to deliver to the heel position with 5 blasts on the whistle. And does that really well.

He was E-Collar force fetched.
Trainer did say to nick him if he starts to shake the dummy.
This is a minor problem as he doesn't do it with real game but I don't want it to transition into that with letting him get by with it.

I'm going to try making him look at me when he has the dummy in his mouth.

[polmaise]

Hi Guys,

Its only a problem with the Dokken Dummy.
He won't do it with just a bumper.

He has been conditioned to deliver to the heel position with 5 blasts on the whistle. And does that really well.

He was E-Collar force fetched.
Trainer did say to nick him if he starts to shake the dummy.
This is a minor problem as he doesn't do it with real game but I don't want it to transition into that with letting him get by with it.

I'm going to try making him look at me when he has the dummy in his mouth.

Rather than 'Make him look at you' ?..why not try 'take delivery' when he comes to you ? ..then overlay the sit delivery?..Forget the 'Dokken' !....It's birds you want it to retrieve ?...

[Meller]

I agree if it is just with the Doken then don't throw the Doken!! Just throw the bumper.

[gonehuntin']

In the U.S., it is accepted practice for the dog to come to heel, turn and sit facing the next bird. No bird is taken until the dog is lined up on the next bird.

This is a young dog, just over a year. Doken's are different than any other bumper. Personally, I would NOT quit throwing the Doken. What I would probable do is just walk him at heel using the NO command IF he shook it. I really feel it's probably just something different for the dog. Did he have a toy he played or plays with with a floppy head like a Doken? If so, he's simply transfering the toy to the Doken. I think it's a one day correction for you.

[crackerd]

A one-day fix. But if you're nicking the dog while it's got something in its mouth, you're liable soon to have an unfixable situation on your hands. Listen to gonehuntin' - he's got a helluva lot better handle on retrievers as a retired pro than many of the "working" pros of the present. Especially it would seem those who are touting "tournament hunting."

And what does your pro report on the dog's manners retrieving real birds? Please don't say the dog hasn't been introduced yet by your pro to live shot birds, ducks in particular...

MG

[gonehuntin']

A one-day fix. But if you're nicking the dog while it's got something in its mouth, you're liable soon to have an unfixable situation on your hands.
MG

Heed closely what MG says here. Nicking a dog with a bird in his mouth makes no sense to the dog; he has the bird and has completed his task in his mind. It makes no sense to the dog what so ever.

[tylerwitt34]

Hi Guys,

My lab was at the trainer for 10 weeks. This is not the trainers fault as the dog did this before the trainer had him.
My dog has had a bunch of chucker and ducks shot over him and is real good with live/dead bird.

I did what a couple of people said to do and seems to be working a little.

Either walk him with the dummy or remove it right away.

I'm also going to be working on the hold command with him. I'm not going to use the e-collar if he is shaking the dummy. Just no and hold seems to be working.

This is not a 1 day fix and i will keep working with Ace until he is were i want him.

[Trekmoor]

Why is it essential that your dog retrieves Doken dummies well ? If the dog only behaves in this way with dokens then I'd take the line of least resistance and stop using them..... I'm not a fan of doken dummies anyway.

Bill T.

[CDN_Cocker]

Why is it essential that your dog retrieves Doken dummies well ? If the dog only behaves in this way with dokens then I'd take the line of least resistance and stop using them..... I'm not a fan of doken dummies anyway.

Bill T.

I'm with Bill

[Timewise65]

Sometimes the 'simplest' solutions in training are the best! Stop using these for training. But I would get some real ducks to try him on to see if this is carrying through on ducks....if so then you need to work with a trainer to fix. I also would not use my collar on my dogs for this, unless nothing else worked. I have a problem with one of my dogs in that she has a tendency to 'mouth' or 'rolls around' everything she fetches in her mouth when at heal. To stop her, I tap the bottom of her jaw and tell her hold! Just like FF. Then I will not take the bird or even move until she completely stops mouthing. When she stops, I tell her to release the bird/dummy.

Good Luck

[gonehuntin']

Sometimes the 'simplest' solutions in training are the best! Stop using these for training. But I would get some real ducks to try him on to see if this is carrying through on ducks....if so then you need to work with a trainer to fix. I also would not use my collar on my dogs for this, unless nothing else worked. I have a problem with one of my dogs in that she has a tendency to 'mouth' or 'rolls around' everything she fetches in her mouth when at heal. To stop her, I tap the bottom of her jaw and tell her hold! Just like FF. Then I will not take the bird or even move until she completely stops mouthing. When she stops, I tell her to release the bird/dummy.

Good Luck

And that's the right way to do it.

Any time a dog gets away with something, it will not be a one time thing. They will repeat the error again and again until the error becomes a habit and HAS to be fixed. Doesn't matter if they've done it right 1000 times, let them do it wrong and they'll try it again.

[polmaise]

Sometimes the 'simplest' solutions in training are the best! Stop using these for training. But I would get some real ducks to try him on to see if this is carrying through on ducks....if so then you need to work with a trainer to fix. I also would not use my collar on my dogs for this, unless nothing else worked. I have a problem with one of my dogs in that she has a tendency to 'mouth' or 'rolls around' everything she fetches in her mouth when at heal. To stop her, I tap the bottom of her jaw and tell her hold! Just like FF. Then I will not take the bird or even move until she completely stops mouthing. When she stops, I tell her to release the bird/dummy.

Good Luck

And that's the right way to do it.

I usually warm to your posts , but can You sit in one camp sometimes? Please.

I'd have to see the dog to judge that.

Personally, I would NOT quit throwing the Doken.

But Your buddy say's different ?
Now , Iknow what you mean by 'nick' but ,is a tap a 'nick' to the dog ?

Nicking a dog with a bird in his mouth makes no sense to the dog; he has the bird and has completed his task in his mind. It makes no sense to the dog what so ever.

So, Is it the 'Right' way to do it ? ..Or ..just you guys agreeing on your way is right to do it regardless ? Don't take offence ..just asking ?

[gonehuntin']

Sometimes the 'simplest' solutions in training are the best! Stop using these for training. But I would get some real ducks to try him on to see if this is carrying through on ducks....if so then you need to work with a trainer to fix. I also would not use my collar on my dogs for this, unless nothing else worked. I have a problem with one of my dogs in that she has a tendency to 'mouth' or 'rolls around' everything she fetches in her mouth when at heal. To stop her, I tap the bottom of her jaw and tell her hold! Just like FF. Then I will not take the bird or even move until she completely stops mouthing. When she stops, I tell her to release the bird/dummy.

Good Luck

And that's the right way to do it.

What

I usually warm to your posts , but can You sit in one camp sometimes? Please.

I'd have to see the dog to judge that.

Personally, I would NOT quit throwing the Doken.

But Your buddy say's different ?
Now , Iknow what you mean by 'nick' but ,is a tap a 'nick' to the dog ?

Nicking a dog with a bird in his mouth makes no sense to the dog; he has the bird and has completed his task in his mind. It makes no sense to the dog what so ever.

So, Is it the 'Right' way to do it ? ..Or ..just you guys agreeing on your way is right to do it regardless ? Don't take offence ..just asking ?

I see the confusion and I do apologize. Let me start from the first quote.
"
To stop her, I tap the bottom of her jaw and tell her hold! Just like FF. Then I will not take the bird or even move until she completely stops mouthing. When she stops, I tell her to release the bird/dummy. "

THAT'S the part of the quote I agreed with not the whole thing. As a trainer I can't bring myself to stop doing something (throwing Dokens) to go around a problem rather than cure it. If you don't cure the problem, it may resurface with all items retrieved.

As with all dog's, you can only truly diagnose a dog when you see the dog. Best any of us can do on the net is draw a conclusion from the material submitted and diagnose the problem with what we are given. SEEING the dog is really the only was to correctly diagnose a dog though.

To me a nick and a tap are exactly the same.

So to me, this is not a collar correctable problem. It's a tap-under-the-jaw-NO solution.

Hope this makes more sense now and keeps me in one camp. I try to never change my training philosophies but occasionally, and this was an example, I get lazy and don't fully explain my answers.

[Neil]

There are only two people that have been identified has having seen and worked the dog, and all of you are discounting the trainer and his input.

[polmaise]

Thanks for taking the time Gonehuntin' .
I am also guilty of being Lazy

[mnaj_springer]

There are only two people that have been identified has having seen and worked the dog, and all of you are discounting the trainer and his input.

Speaking for myself, I'm not discounting the trainer. I just disagree with using the e-collar while a dog (any dog) has something in its mouth. But I could be wrong.

[Neil]

What I know is certainly wrong is deciding the matter without input from the trainer.

There are a number of ways to train.

[crackerd]

What I know is certainly wrong is deciding the matter without input from the trainer.

You mean the trainer who got the dog for 10 weeks after it already was doing the death shake of the Dokken and then gave the dog back still shaking it upon return to the OP? Yeah, I'd want the trainer's input - like what, exactly, was he training for? "Tournament hunting?" If this is a retriever trainer, I'm a punk rocker's uncle.

MG

[Neil]

Easy to harshly judge someone from behind a keyboard with only information from one source.

[gonehuntin']

From my view, the point of the discussion is that I have never known anyone to use an ecollar to stop shaking of a dummy or bird. The easiest way to think of an ecollar is that stimulation produces or amplifies motion. Fetch, back, here, sit, down, over, etc are all commands that produce a distinct motion or a motion different from the motion the animal is in. It could be argued that the one exception to this is WHOA where the dog just stops with no further motion.

With mouth problems an ecollar generally amplifies any problem greatly and I don't care who the trainer is.

[mrbobaz]

NO is a powerful word. NO to stop the shaking HOLD to cue correct behavior.

[DonF]

From the for what it's worth dept. Lab just over a year old, retrieving with a Dokin dummy? Don't those things have a head hanging on a rope? Never even saw one other than one the internet. For what's it worth, sounds like a puppy playing to me and you are requiring it to grow up. Get a retrieving dummy without a head flopping around and try that! I haven't cared for those Doken dummy's since the first photo of one I saw. Look's like a toy to me and I 69 yrs old. I strongly suspect you loose that monster. and go to dead birds. Start over from taking the dead bird from your hand and holding it.Go from that point on. Let the pup grow a bit more!

[Neil]

I have no doubt you experts are right. But there are a number of ways to train a dog, there are no absolutes. You are beating up on a trainer you have never met about a dog you have never seen.

I have seen the e-collar used in place of the toe hitch or ear pinch to FF. In so doing they use it for the pick up and hold; and even the release while on the table. Not my preferred method, but it works. It confuses me more than the dog. I see little difference in using it for retrieve and hold, than for back and here, or over and sit.

I just think it better to give the trainer the benefit of the doubt until more facts known, or at least not judge so harshly. Just because you can't or won't do something does not mean it can't be done.

[CDN_Cocker]

From the for what it's worth dept. Lab just over a year old, retrieving with a Dokin dummy? Don't those things have a head hanging on a rope? Never even saw one other than one the internet. For what's it worth, sounds like a puppy playing to me and you are requiring it to grow up. Get a retrieving dummy without a head flopping around and try that! I haven't cared for those Doken dummy's since the first photo of one I saw. Look's like a toy to me and I 69 yrs old. I strongly suspect you loose that monster. and go to dead birds. Start over from taking the dead bird from your hand and holding it.Go from that point on. Let the pup grow a bit more!

Yup, a dokken adds no value, they are just expensive to buy. Dummies and birds, thats all you need.

[Scott Linden]

Cut off the head, eliminate the temptation. He gets off on the head "fighting back." Every shake = the head hitting him = another shake to kill it.

That's why I designed my bumper without one: www.realbirdbumper.com

[Trekmoor]

As I said earlier, I don't like dokken dummies and don't use them. I don't like their slimy feel , I don't like the head that wobbles about and I certainly don't like their price.
As far as I can remember I've only once felt a need to train a dog to accept a birds head wobbling about during retrieves. I got that dog used to it, or tried to anyway, by putting a golf ball into the toe of an old sock then tied about three overhand knots into the sock ,tight behind the golf ball. That gave me the head and neck. Then I shoved a plain canvas dummy into the sock and tied the sock tight to it's end.

As a dummy made to do exactly the same thing as a doken it worked fine but in reality I think just giving the dog more opportunity to retrieve shot birds was what cured the problem.

Bill T.