Solid on point

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Tooling
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Solid on point

Post by Tooling » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:56 am

Mentioned in another post

We all know scent means stop & whether everyone agrees on usage or not we all know that whoa means stop - some use whoa on birds and some do not (doesn’t matter as it relates to this)

Staunchness can fall apart as you walk past your young dog for a flush etc and many advise not to do that ~ just one of the things that you gotta’ work through to tighten up the dog..often times the closing of, or the cycling of a shotgun action will tempt the dog to break point in anticipation…again all things that one must work through to tighten the dog up, these being some of the most common “distractions”

During training, how about using the closing of the shotgun & bringing it to shoulder as a queue to stop/stand? (Formally train for this)

*It seems to me that if this is incorporated early in the process of teaching whoa that it could pay big dividends down the line & is ultimately a pretty savvy building block toward tightening up a dog w/less pressure.

Anybody do this?

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ruffbritt4
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Re: Solid on point

Post by ruffbritt4 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:58 am

This is something that I don't really buy into. Learning to hold point is important for dogs. They shouldn't have to have a whoa or action closing to remain steady. The dog should learn that no matter what, I have to hold point. You walking by the dog to flush the bird, even if he breaks for a little before he learns not to, is teaching him that he has to remain steady. I think it is a learning point for them.

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Tooling
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Re: Solid on point

Post by Tooling » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:50 am

The dog that works for the gun and the handler has an advantage over the dog that works only through the obedience of the handler?

The dog is only standing b/c the handler says so - PERIOD - I've never come across a dog that counts how many birds are in the bag.

I also know there are skeletonized bones of dogs still on point upon the prairie or over the mountain somewhere from last yrs hunt b/c the trainer is so incredibly awesome at what he does with the wonder dog that he has, but for us mere mortals..

Think about it..show me a gun dog that does not excite once the gun comes out and the boots go on & I'll show you a dog not suitable for the field..that is association.

Teach the dog the rules of the gun on top of the dogs manners while you're positioning. Association between the gun coming into position or the audible of the action which requires an increased degree of steadiness...it's a no brainer. Unless using a net, the gun is a part of the equation.

How many dogs instinctually and naturally retrieve to the person who shot? (even if it's not you)

That is the dog naturally working for the gun..use the gun as just another tool in the bag toward steadiness...it's a no brainer and the mere fact that the dog most often heads toward the guy with the gun IS the dog telling you this.

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ruffbritt4
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Re: Solid on point

Post by ruffbritt4 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:52 am

Tooling wrote:The dog that works for the gun and the handler has an advantage over the dog that works only through the obedience of the handler?

The dog is only standing b/c the handler says so - PERIOD - I've never come across a dog that counts how many birds are in the bag.

I also know there are skeletonized bones of dogs still on point upon the prairie or over the mountain somewhere from last yrs hunt b/c the trainer is so incredibly awesome at what he does with the wonder dog that he has, but for us mere mortals..

Think about it..show me a gun dog that does not excite once the gun comes out and the boots go on & I'll show you a dog not suitable for the field..that is association.

Teach the dog the rules of the gun on top of the dogs manners while you're positioning. Association between the gun coming into position or the audible of the action which requires an increased degree of steadiness...it's a no brainer. Unless using a net, the gun is a part of the equation.

How many dogs instinctually and naturally retrieve to the person who shot? (even if it's not you)

That is the dog naturally working for the gun..use the gun as just another tool in the bag toward steadiness...it's a no brainer and the mere fact that the dog most often heads toward the guy with the gun IS the dog telling you this.
I have no clue what you are asking me, but it seems you don't want any other answers. My brit learned on grouse and woodcock last year in Maine without my intervention. I didn't say a word, yet that dog held his points for me to come and shoot the bird. Didn't have to tell him to stay there. Now tell me that's not possible, and I'll show you a dog that did it. Maybe it was a miracle, but he's done it a lot.

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Tooling
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Re: Solid on point

Post by Tooling » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:01 pm

ruffbrit..I'm sorry if the tone seems negative in any way..that's not the intent at all. I'm glad that wild birds in your area have steadied your dog..it's pretty tough with limited opportunities to do so and new ways to get what you want out of a dog w/the least amount of pressure as is possible is always a good thing + the dog had me up at 3 a.m. to go out :|

The intent is/was to just throw the concept out there and to get others thoughts on the subject (probably overcomplicating things) - I heard someone speaking of this approach and at 3 a.m. it got me to thinking on the subject so I posted.

..seems a good idea to me & a pretty clever approach toward rock solid steadiness is all. I thought perhaps some of the experienced dog folks may have used this strategy before & was hoping to get some feedback...which you offered, so thank you.

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ruffbritt4
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Re: Solid on point

Post by ruffbritt4 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:12 pm

No apology necessary. I just think that it can be done just as easily without the handler needing to tell the dog to stop.

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Sharon
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Re: Solid on point

Post by Sharon » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:36 pm

When you have access to that many wild birds , I believe the birds can teach the dog to hold its point. It won't be steady to the shot though- without other training- which is important to me. However, most of us have few wild birds available for weekly training. Whoa has to be taught in the backyard with some pigeons , a barrel and the command.

I think you are spoiled there Ruffbritt. Come on up here where wild birds are few and far between and train a dog. :).... you know I'm just kidding with you.
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ruffbritt4
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Re: Solid on point

Post by ruffbritt4 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:13 pm

Sharon, I don't live in Maine, I'm in PA. I do have good bird hunting but have to drive an hour to my covers.

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Grange
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Re: Solid on point

Post by Grange » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:53 pm

Sharon wrote:When you have access to that many wild birds , I believe the birds can teach the dog to hold its point. It won't be steady to the shot though- without other training- which is important to me. However, most of us have few wild birds available for weekly training. Whoa has to be taught in the backyard with some pigeons , a barrel and the command.

I think you are spoiled there Ruffbritt. Come on up here where wild birds are few and far between and train a dog. :).... you know I'm just kidding with you.
When we were training the young dogs we didn't use whoa around birds. Launching a bird from a remote launcher when the dog moved after it established point worked well for us. Once the dog knew that movement after an established point is what caused the bird to flush it didn't matter if we walked past the dog from behind, cycled a shotgun, or even shot a gun the dog didn't break point.

We trained whoa away from birds. I used the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish method and my training partner (father) used different methods.

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Tooling
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Re: Solid on point

Post by Tooling » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:39 pm

My dog does not need nor does he associate "whoa" in order to establish point on birds..that's not what "whoa" is for. I am not saying that I won't quietly offer an eaaasy every now and again, but who is that for, really?

When walking past a dog he/she is breaking for one of two reasons - either the dog is competing with you or the dogs anticipation exceeds all else and he or she simply cannot handle it so it's back to the yard or the barrel or the pole or enough electricity to convince him or her through an increased level of discomfort.

The scent of a bird stops my dog..as it should be. If the bird cannot be seen he is as honest as a dog could be. I've seen dogs staunch as could be with releases only to dive in using a tip up. I've seen the same dogs remain steady to a bird having been put to sleep - I for one don't think we give dogs enough credit..they just seem to know the game..some quicker than others and my dog seems to be one of those dogs. His demeanor sure changes when there are wild birds in the mix.

Wouldn't it be nice if a dog could be taught to stop in his tracks the moment he or she sees a car..the notion of establishing this premise with the actions associated with a shotgun would be some nice insurance for the dog to remain staunch no matter what..that's all. The gun is there and the gun is a tool - I for one like to exploit every ounce of what any tool can offer.

I have launchers - they help but they did not teach my dog everything there is to know in order to remain solid on point..although a spare bird or two in the jacket along with some launchers could help..I've never seen a launcher that will train for steadiness as the bird struts his stuff right before the dogs eyes taunting him all the while. Higgins releases come as close to this as I've seen but there is still something artificial about it if the dog sees it (the release or the action of releasing the bird from it) Of course the intent of the Higgins release is to release the bird before the dog arrives but still..

I also have a copy of perfect start/perfect finish..I swear I have made my dog watch this with no distractions about a hundred times and he still doesn't seem to get it..he must be dumb or something :P

As I stated, this post was the product of a brain storm at 3 a.m. & likely a bit of overthinking on my part however I cannot for the life of me see any down side to making attempt toward the guns presence or action having some association as a reminder or mild reinforcement toward holding steady.

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displaced_texan
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Re: Solid on point

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:59 pm

Steady is steady, has nothing to do with what you are or aren't holding...
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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33Scout
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Re: Solid on point

Post by 33Scout » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:01 am

Good post I have learned a bit from just reading this post.

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Re: Solid on point

Post by Stoneface » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:15 pm

If you don't stop a dog until after they flush, they'll find it silly to flush. What I mean is, a lot of people go on to correct a dog when they move, after the point. They think they're putting it out of the mind of the dog to creep. They're not. There's a big wall the dog has to get over saying, "Do I want the bird bad enough to endure the heat from the collar?" If you let them do anything they want - feak out, bark, break, flush, anything (won't do half of this, but it's good to make the point) - then queue them to stop and stand when the bird takes to air, they'll quit chasing altogether. They see no sense in it. It is very imporatant not to let a dog catch birds who is going through this sort of training. If they do catch it, though, just keep on like it never happened. Before long he won't bust birds because he has to stand and watch them fly off.
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