Relocating or going in on the flush

[Makintrax73]

1.5 years ES. Purchased as started dog in August. I have worked him a fair amount on whoa, and he knows what it means enough to whoa in the house (off leash say if I drop a treat and whoa him) or out in the yard (on leash). But not away from me in the field. Still seems rather "puppy-ish" to me.

I've been working him on quail, and killed birds over him. A very few bumped birds, but I don't think on purpose. Basically he points for me steady enough to get to him from 50-75 yards away with an occasional "whoa" reminder. However when I actually get near him (next to him or between him and the bird) he has a tendency to "creep" or relocate like he wants to make sure where the bird is, sometimes circling around, and sometimes going in closer. He doesn't just charge in like he just wants to bust and chase the bird.

I want the dog for wild and preserve pheasant and quail hunting. Maybe try to go grouse hunting. And MAYBE a NSTRA trail. I have done AKC and NAVHDA testing in the past, but won't with this dog. His range is about 75-100 yards avg per Garmin.

Thoughts on hammering him more on steadiness? Do you think self-relocating and/or creeping is a major problem that needs corrected? Or maybe it will be a benefit if he follows up running birds and keeps pressure up until they are pinned down?

[shags]

Creeping and circling on birds that are not moving means the dog wants to see them fly.
If you want your dog steady, take him back to the yard and the checkcord and pigeons and help him clean up his act. I don't much like the word "hammering" as it pertains to a young dog that hasn't been taught to do what you want. Bring him along at his pace.
Something else, maybe lay off the warning "whoas" too, since he is not obeying you. You are teaching him that the command means nothing unless a treat is involved. Train for whoa in the yard where you can control the dog, and gradually increase the distance etc.
good luck, that is a gorgeous dog you have there.

[Makintrax73]

Hammering is too strong a word, you're right. I really have not been putting on any serious pressure at all around birds, so I just meant step up pressure. I like his style and don't want to see him let down because I screwed up applying too much pressure.

You are correct that I'm giving a command that he ignores, and I need to re-train myself on that count.

I can certainly step up the yard training on whoa. Perhaps transition to an e-collar with a little work and enforce it. I tried a whoa post and it didn't work for me. The dog just stands there when the line goes around his flank and basically refuses to do anything. I let him get pinched too hard the first couple of times maybe, or maybe he just figured a way to outsmart me.

Thanks for the advice Shags.

[shags]

The best trainers I know never flush just one bird when they are working on steadying. They flush, then toss a pocket pigeon or two or have another bird or two in a kick box(es). The dogs don't let down because they are always expecting another bird.

I don't care much for the whoa post either

[DonF]

The best trainers I know never flush just one bird when they are working on steadying. They flush, then toss a pocket pigeon or two or have another bird or two in a kick box(es). The dogs don't let down because they are always expecting another bird.

I don't care much for the whoa post either

Ah! I love the whoa post; the original whoa post by Delmar. The new one by his kids I just don't get! To me I can't find a purpose in it.

[shags]

The half-hitch around the flank is supposed to condition the dog to the ecollar which is the next step IIRC. Mine have done just as well with the lead or cc half-hitched around the flank, and doing heel/whoa ala Paul Long, then moving to the collar.
I guess I was doing something wrong because my dogs got sticky on Rick's method, and it got old moving the dang stakes all over the yard.
Not dissing Rick or Ronnie's ways, they have been very helpful other than the wp.

[setterpoint]

when he creeps pick him back up and put him or her in the same place say whoa and go in and flush the bird if he moves pick him up put him back with a more formal whoa just keep doing this . another way is get a launcher if he moves after you have put him back the first time pop the bird

[Sharon]

The best trainers I know never flush just one bird when they are working on steadying. They flush, then toss a pocket pigeon or two or have another bird or two in a kick box(es). The dogs don't let down because they are always expecting another bird. ............................

Golden reminder. Thanks.

[oldbeek]

must be more staunch for NSTRA. Dog will be jumping in on those pen raised quail. Been there done that.

[slistoe]

I want the dog for wild and preserve pheasant and quail hunting. Maybe try to go grouse hunting. And MAYBE a NSTRA trail. I have done AKC and NAVHDA testing in the past, but won't with this dog. His range is about 75-100 yards avg per Garmin.

He hunts too short for those things?

[slistoe]

Telling the dog "whoa" before the flush of the birds is a fool's game.
Your dog is sort of respecting you and your wishes, but your dogs is not respecting the birds. (Or he is nervous and pressured, but let's go with the easy one.)

Not sure where your dog is on the stop to flush training so we will assume none.

Get some launchers, some hard flying birds, a CC and some duct tape. The duct tape is for you.

Work your dog crosswind and when he indicates scent but does not point, fly the bird. Gently control the chase to bring him to a stop with your CC.

When he points the birds as you cross wind ( you want the scent path to be strong and sudden, not something he works up into) you get the CC and move in - if he moves, the bird flys (I mean if he so much as turns his head to look at you). You gently control a long chase to bring it to a stop - you are not trying to take things out of the dog - you like his style.

Repeat, repeat, repeat. Fly the bird he is not pointing. Fly 2 birds at once. When he leaves with the first bird you fly, fly another right in front of him. Mix it up - get him excited and keep him anticipating. When he is getting it more right than wrong ( high and tight till you flush the bird) kill a few for him.

All this while you can be still working on getting your whoa actually solid in the yard and around the field on the off times when you aren't working the birds. When the whoa is actually solid and he is properly respecting his birds you can probably take your duct tape off when working him on the birds and use your CC in conjunction with a whoa to bring the controlled chase to a severely shortened version.

[Trekmoor]

If it's not too rude a question to reply to .....where does the handler put his duct tape ? I do agree with you though.

Bill T.

[slistoe]

If it's not too rude a question to reply to .....where does the handler put his duct tape ? I do agree with you though.

Bill T.

The big white spot on the smiley

[Sharon]

Telling the dog "whoa" before the flush of the birds is a fool's game.
Your dog is sort of respecting you and your wishes, but your dogs is not respecting the birds. (Or he is nervous and pressured, but let's go with the easy one.)

Not sure where your dog is on the stop to flush training so we will assume none.

Get some launchers, some hard flying birds, a CC and some duct tape. The duct tape is for you.

Work your dog crosswind and when he indicates scent but does not point, fly the bird. Gently control the chase to bring him to a stop with your CC.

When he points the birds as you cross wind ( you want the scent path to be strong and sudden, not something he works up into) you get the CC and move in - if he moves, the bird flys (I mean if he so much as turns his head to look at you). You gently control a long chase to bring it to a stop - you are not trying to take things out of the dog - you like his style.

Repeat, repeat, repeat. Fly the bird he is not pointing. Fly 2 birds at once. When he leaves with the first bird you fly, fly another right in front of him. Mix it up - get him excited and keep him anticipating. When he is getting it more right than wrong ( high and tight till you flush the bird) kill a few for him.

All this while you can be still working on getting your whoa actually solid in the yard and around the field on the off times when you aren't working the birds. When the whoa is actually solid and he is properly respecting his birds you can probably take your duct tape off when working him on the birds and use your CC in conjunction with a whoa to bring the controlled chase to a severely shortened version.

I have to think all that through ( have the utmost respect for your knowledge).

I hate to come across as a fool , but why did I teach whoa formally in the backyard with birds if I'm not going to say it in the field?

edited for spelling

[polmaise]

I hate to come across as a fool , but why did I teach whoa formally in the backyard with birds if I'm not going to say it in the field?

Why did you teach FF in the backyard when you don't say it in the field ?

[slistoe]

Double Tap.

[slistoe]

I hate to come across as a fool , but why did I teach whoa formally in the backyard with birds if I'm not going to say it in the field?

edited for spelling

Proofing the dog under the ultimate duress. Eventually you should progress in the yard to where the birds mean whoa - unless you have no desire to have your dog eventually stop to flush.

And you will be saying it in the field - when you want to instill manners in your dog after the flush - unless you never plan to have a dog that is steady. If you want a dog to go with the birds for some reason or another you could dispense with fooling with whoa altogether. Teach sit - it is more useful in the house, on a lead and the park and you probably won't be the type to get worked up if the dog sits on point from some unknown pressure once in awhile anyway.

[Sharon]

I hate to come across as a fool , but why did I teach whoa formally in the backyard with birds if I'm not going to say it in the field?

edited for spelling

Proofing the dog under the ultimate duress. Eventually you should progress in the yard to where the birds mean whoa - unless you have no desire to have your dog eventually stop to flush.

And you will be saying it in the field - when you want to instill manners in your dog after the flush - unless you never plan to have a dog that is steady. If you want a dog to go with the birds for some reason or another you could dispense with fooling with whoa altogether. Teach sit - it is more useful in the house, on a lead and the park and you probably won't be the type to get worked up if the dog sits on point from some unknown pressure once in awhile anyway.

The dog is steady(stops to flush) ; she definitely won't be going with the birds; she won't be sitting in the field, she doesn't go to the park. ( She was Amateur Walking Shooting Dog of the year for Region 13 ; not sure what TYPE you think I am. )
Just was wondering why I can't say "whoa" sometimes in the field. Apparently I can. Appreciate the comment that the bird says "whoa". Thank you.

[Sharon]

I hate to come across as a fool , but why did I teach whoa formally in the backyard with birds if I'm not going to say it in the field?

Why did you teach FF in the backyard when you don't say it in the field ?

Good point. Thanks.

[slistoe]

The dog is steady(stops to flush) ; she definitely won't be going with the birds; she won't be sitting in the field, she doesn't go to the park. ( She was Amateur Walking Shooting Dog of the year for Region 13 ; not sure what TYPE you think I am. )
Just was wondering why I can't say "whoa" sometimes in the field. Apparently I can. Appreciate the comment that the bird says "whoa". Thank you.

Yeah, I knew that. I just threw in a few generalizations in case it was of benefit for other readers.

[Sharon]

Sorry for over reacting.

[slistoe]

Just was wondering why I can't say "whoa" sometimes in the field.

I assume you missed the reference to when to take the duct tape off

[slistoe]

Sorry for over reacting.

No trouble on my end - could have been clearer myself. I type in brief.

[Trekmoor]

The references to dogs sitting "in the field" in this thread and one or two others I've read here have me interested. In common with most Hunt-point-retriever trainers in Britain I train my dogs to "sit in the field" when a bird flushes but I find they never do it before the bird flushes.....not even if I blow the sit whistle while they are on point. I have never had a dog that sat on point.

If I have read things correctly the main worry about a dog doing this in America is that a sit following the flush would spoil the "picture" a bit in a field trial dog ? I can see the sense in that but just wanted to point out that the dogs would not neccessarily sit following a point and a flush unless they had been very firmly taught to.

In some situations here I see my previously pointing dogs begin to creep in due to the birds moving off from in front of them. The dogs are trying to maintain the same previous levels of scent going up their noses ....I think ? In this situation I sort of weigh things up as I am walking out to the dog and if I think that due to some cover feature ....usually decreasing cover, the bird may feel pressurised and flush I blow the sit whistle.

My dogs stop to that and resume pointing ...they never sit , not until the bird actually flies off, they sit then because I have demanded it in training.

I don't really have a question about this , I was just interested to note the thoughts you have about dogs "sitting in the field."

Bill T.

[h&t]

Bill, I think, the 'fear of sitting' you're inquiring about is mostly related to a dog being (over)pressured in training or handling and sitting ON point. You don't put too much pressure on your digs so you never saw them sit on point

[twistedoak]

I'd say you need to make a choice over whats more important
a trial dog or a personal hunting dog.

I decided on personel gun dog so,
with pheasants
I let my dog respond to what the bird is doing ,relocate if needed or even flush if the bird isn't cooperating.
I also allow the dog to flush off a point on command.

but when I get in the woods for grouse.
I expect points to be held until I release

[polmaise]

I hate to come across as a fool , but why did I teach whoa formally in the backyard with birds if I'm not going to say it in the field?

Why did you teach FF in the backyard when you don't say it in the field ?

Good point. Thanks.

I hang on your every word
Stepping back a peg or two makes you think ?

[Sharon]

I hope not because I can't come anywhere near to what you and many others on here know. Ignore me 99% of the time.

[setterpoint]

why throw and give the dog a bird for doing it wrong i would only let him have a chase if i get to flush a bird and whoa is used in the field thats one reason we teach it

[setterpoint]

watch dave hugh in training on wild birds he makes a swooshing sound when going in to flush the bird in trails you cant whoa your dog the dogs know swoosh means whoa kind of a sneaky trick a lot of ways to train a bird dog pick one and stick with it you dont want to confuse the dog

[slistoe]

watch dave hugh in training on wild birds he makes a swooshing sound when going in to flush the bird in trails you cant whoa your dog the dogs know swoosh means whoa kind of a sneaky trick a lot of ways to train a bird dog pick one and stick with it you dont want to confuse the dog

There is a significant difference between whoaing the dog when on point in a trial and cueing the dog to anticipate a flush.

[slistoe]

why throw and give the dog a bird for doing it wrong i would only let him have a chase if i get to flush a bird and whoa is used in the field thats one reason we teach it

There are really very, very few times that I am ever aware of my dog actually establishing point on wild birds in a hunt. There is never an opportunity for me to use "whoa" in the field to tell my dog what he should be doing when he finds a bird. If the only cue I have to keep the dog solid is to tell him to whoa I have lost the game before we start with wild birds.
The dogs points and the birds keep him there. Once the birds are gone, if I want the dog to still stay there I will need some other cue - so I teach whoa for that purpose.

[Soarer31]

Creeping and circling on birds that are not moving means the dog wants to see them fly.
If you want your dog steady, take him back to the yard and the checkcord and pigeons and help him clean up his act. I don't much like the word "hammering" as it pertains to a young dog that hasn't been taught to do what you want. Bring him along at his pace.
Something else, maybe lay off the warning "whoas" too, since he is not obeying you. You are teaching him that the command means nothing unless a treat is involved. Train for whoa in the yard where you can control the dog, and gradually increase the distance etc.
good luck, that is a gorgeous dog you have there.

What's wrong if dogs relocate , and or.creep ? To me it's the best part of the hunt! (Apart from field trials of cause where that's so far detached from real hunting it's pretty much a joke)

I like to see dogs free spirited , independent , with minimal input from the handler
Too much over training and ruins to dogs "freestyle "
.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aeL0Tu0QqLw

[Sharon]

Creeping and circling on birds that are not moving means the dog wants to see them fly.
If you want your dog steady, take him back to the yard and the checkcord and pigeons and help him clean up his act. I don't much like the word "hammering" as it pertains to a young dog that hasn't been taught to do what you want. Bring him along at his pace.
Something else, maybe lay off the warning "whoas" too, since he is not obeying you. You are teaching him that the command means nothing unless a treat is involved. Train for whoa in the yard where you can control the dog, and gradually increase the distance etc.
good luck, that is a gorgeous dog you have there.

What's wrong if dogs relocate , and or.creep ? To me it's the best part of the hunt! (Apart from field trials of cause where that's so far detached from real hunting it's pretty much a joke)

I like to see dogs free spirited , independent , with minimal input from the handler
Too much over training and ruins to dogs "freestyle "
.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aeL0Tu0QqLw

Well, they are definitely hunting freely. I like dogs too that are " free spirited , independent , with minimal input from the handler" , but I don't know how you could harvest birds over that dog behaviour. Best go to a field trial and see how it's done.

[Trekmoor]

Ignore me 99% of the time.

I found out a long time ago that you ignore women at your peril

Bill T.

[Soarer31]

Ha, ha , Sharon ,
So you think these dogs don't bring home the bacon?

.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc2qZnYjbw8

[Sharon]

Very nice video - different cover , working closer. That creeping doesn't flush the bird before you are ready to shoot?

[polmaise]

The bleep Beep was more intrusive than an Acme 210 1/2 . on a hunt with multiple dogs and shots going off .
Is the shot a trigger to go ?

[Trekmoor]

The continual bleep-bleep drove me up the wall but I can see where that sort of collar would be useful in cover.

Bill T.

[Soarer31]

No issue if the dog creeps, he'll learn from trial and error how far to push it, sure in the beginning he'll bump birds , might take one whole season to work it out .I myself never interfere (attempt to correct, train),in the field leave that job for the birds.

[Higgins]

Here is a video I did a while ago. It shows a client and her dog "managing" a covey of chukar. My rule is, if the dogs movement while in a birdy place, is not motivated by a desire to flush, catch or see the bird then, by my definition, it is "bird management" not "creeping".

I included here, the text that was included with the video.

Here is Sophia, handled by Martha, managing a covey of partridge. These were challenging conditions with virtually no wind, warm temperatures and spooky birds that wanted to run, not fly. They did an outstanding job staying in touch and pressuring the covey just enough to get them to stop, but not so much as to cause them to flush. Sophia managed those birds for another 1000 or so yards before they stopped on a far ridge, and held for the gun.

https://youtu.be/1dI_o50-Xu8



Brad Higgins
http://www.HigginsGundogs.com

Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

[Chukar12]

Brad, we cannot confuse people. If those were wild chukar they would be gone. I see nothing wrong with a dog in training, trying to learn to handle those birds, but I see a dog roading birds there and a situation that needs correction with wild birds, or something to simulate wild birds. I do not agree that it is desirable for that dog to push those birds like that. IMO hunting club dogs get away with that and wild bird dogs don't.

Thanks, Joe

[ezzy333]

Brad, we cannot confuse people. If those were wild chukar they would be gone. I see nothing wrong with a dog in training, trying to learn to handle those birds, but I see a dog roading birds there and a situation that needs correction with wild birds, or something to simulate wild birds. I do not agree that it is desirable for that dog to push those birds like that. IMO hunting club dogs get away with that and wild bird dogs don't.

Thanks, Joe

Amen. Under normal conditions I expect the dog to point and if the birds move then we will decide what to do after the fact that I can't find them. At that time I either have the dog relocate or take the dog off of those birds and go a different direction. It is my decision and not the dog's. The problem is that most wild native birds are going to flush when they are being pushed no matter how careful the dog is and I would rather they do that when I am there and ready.

Ezzy

[Neil]

Creeping and circling on birds that are not moving means the dog wants to see them fly.
If you want your dog steady, take him back to the yard and the checkcord and pigeons and help him clean up his act. I don't much like the word "hammering" as it pertains to a young dog that hasn't been taught to do what you want. Bring him along at his pace.
Something else, maybe lay off the warning "whoas" too, since he is not obeying you. You are teaching him that the command means nothing unless a treat is involved. Train for whoa in the yard where you can control the dog, and gradually increase the distance etc.
good luck, that is a gorgeous dog you have there.

What's wrong if dogs relocate , and or.creep ? To me it's the best part of the hunt! (Apart from field trials of cause where that's so far detached from real hunting it's pretty much a joke)

I like to see dogs free spirited , independent , with minimal input from the handler
Too much over training and ruins to dogs "freestyle "
.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aeL0Tu0QqLw

Who told you a dog could not self-relocate in a trial? And in what ways are trials so detached from hunting to be a joke? Since Chukar12 is hunting two National Champions on wild birds I am sure he would like to laugh with you.

[slistoe]

Creeping and circling on birds that are not moving means the dog wants to see them fly.
If you want your dog steady, take him back to the yard and the checkcord and pigeons and help him clean up his act. I don't much like the word "hammering" as it pertains to a young dog that hasn't been taught to do what you want. Bring him along at his pace.
Something else, maybe lay off the warning "whoas" too, since he is not obeying you. You are teaching him that the command means nothing unless a treat is involved. Train for whoa in the yard where you can control the dog, and gradually increase the distance etc.
good luck, that is a gorgeous dog you have there.

What's wrong if dogs relocate , and or.creep ? To me it's the best part of the hunt! (Apart from field trials of cause where that's so far detached from real hunting it's pretty much a joke)

I like to see dogs free spirited , independent , with minimal input from the handler
Too much over training and ruins to dogs "freestyle "
.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aeL0Tu0QqLw

Who told you a dog could not self-relocate in a trial? And in what ways are trials so detached from hunting to be a joke? Since Chukar12 is hunting two National Champions on wild birds I am sure he would like to laugh with you.

Spoiler alert! Spoiler alert!
Neil has come along to spoil soarer31's fun with some honest truth.
Darn.

[Chukar12]

Soarer,

This is a lot of fun, and I truly enjoyed your video as it shows dogs doing their deal in grand places. However, they aren't very functional. They have exceptional natural ability, but in most cases a backing dog in your video pressures a pointing dog into movement and or steals point and blows birds up out of range. Shot opportunities due to this are limited. Now, if that's ok with you...who cares? They are your dogs and your hunts and I could enjoy the trek greatly. Let's be clear, fun and function are what you want them to be, not me or anyone else, but someone who wants to maximize opportunities and effectively hunt in groups without interfering with another dog have to have dogs that hold point and back better than this.

...and in a trial, a dog can self relocate until the cows come home when I am judging until it knocks a bird or you are flushing. However, in the subjectivity of it all as i am watching if a dog does it for no apparent reason, it takes away from the performance for me.

[Neil]

And I will admit the seemingly endless point & creep, point & creep, will not often be seen favorably by judges; nor do I enjoy it hunting. But as Joe says, a snappy, confident self-relocation with purpose will be rewarded.

[shags]

Soarer,
A relocation is not the same as creeping and cirlcing sitting birds. No matter if you're hunting or trialing. A relocating dog wants to pin moving birds. A circling or creeping dog wants sitting birds to fly.

[Trekmoor]

Soarer,
A relocation is not the same as creeping and cirlcing sitting birds. No matter if you're hunting or trialing. A relocating dog wants to pin moving birds. A circling or creeping dog wants sitting birds to fly.

I am uncertain what is meant in this post. I thought a relocating dog was one which has completely broken off from the scent it originally pointed to hunt fairly fast and hard again for the escaping bird in order to re-establish a point on it.

If a dog is game experienced then I think a circling or creeping dog is trying to keep the same level of scent going up it's nose from a bird which has moved from the point.....the dog wants to maintain the scent levels it started with, it isn't really wanting to see the birds fly off.

Maybe we are talking at cross purposes though ?

Bill T.

[shags]

Once a dog establishes point, he oughtn't be creeping closer if the bird is sitting still. Running birds are a different scenario.
A dog that circles a sitting bird is trying to pressure the bird to flight. Look, say the wind is coming from 12:00 and the dog points at the position of 6:00. How does the dog circling around to 11:00 or 2:00 keep scent on the dog's nose? Circling a bird that is not moving is not pinning it - pinning implies a moving bird and the dog is getting on the other side to stop it going that direction.

Get the difference? Sitting vs moving bird?