tug o war

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Spy Car
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Re: tug o war

Post by Spy Car » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:23 am

Neil wrote: How about we agree to speak plainly and just use punishment and reward? As a favor, please?
Fine by me Neil, so long as we can agree that pinching a dog's ear (or hitting continuous stim on an ecollar transmitter) counts as "punishment" and that the cessation of either infliction of pain doesn't count as a "reward."

Bill

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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:54 am

There are those that argue an ear pinch is pressure, not punishment; but my dogs would say otherwise.

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Re: tug o war

Post by gundogguy » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:45 am

Neil wrote:There are those that argue an ear pinch is pressure, not punishment; but my dogs would say otherwise.

So it is a case of "Does the dog learn to turn the pressure off" or "Does the dog learn to avoid the punishment" ??
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Re: tug o war

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:07 am

Spy Car wrote:
Neil wrote: How about we agree to speak plainly and just use punishment and reward? As a favor, please?
Fine by me Neil, so long as we can agree that pinching a dog's ear (or hitting continuous stim on an ecollar transmitter) counts as "punishment" and that the cessation of either infliction of pain doesn't count as a "reward."

Bill
It's not punishment. It's negative reinforcement. It's part of that process called operant conditioning you said all the good trainers use.
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Re: tug o war

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:44 am

Spy Car wrote:
And smart trainers know that only relying on pain and negative reinforcement is the least effective method of training. Only gun-dog folks seem not to have gotten the memo. Every other professional trainer working with animals (dog included) knows the balance for training should lean heavily towards positive reinforcement. That seems to be lost on many.

Bill
Where do you come up with these loads of horse crap that you post? There is no gun dog trainer out there that I'm aware of that rely's on pain and negative reinforcement to train dogs. None. It's all a balance and you don't seem to understand that balance or simply enjoy peppering your posts with mis-information, lies and half truths. If you have no comprehension of a training regimen you shouldn't open up your mouth to post on it and confuse the newer trainers.
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Re: tug o war

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:14 am

Anyone who has worked with professional trainers and read about how dogs think, train understands that dogs do not think, like we think. One common mistake dog owners make is to transfer or give human characteristics to animals (Anthropomorphize). Dogs do not think like people! They do not learn like people.
Use of the term ‘Punishment’ does not really fit into dog training, especially if you are relating how the dog understands pressure. Dogs do not think in terms of pressure-retribution or penalty inflicted on me by someone….etc.

PUNISHMENT
a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
c : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

To keep it simple, dogs capture, shall we say, 'snap shots' of experiences they have. When they are presented with a new situation they quickly pull up the 'snapshot' that best fits what they are seeing and/or feeling from past experiences. As trainers, we try and give the dogs a series of pictures that cover most of the experiences they may have.
Dogs learn from what the actually experience. They will learn from training that they can 'turn off pressure' and/or they can receive praise by repeating those 'pictures' from past training routines. Both methods will work! But, too much pressure or pressure not applied properly can damage the style and overall success a dog will have. Too much phrase can lessen the impact of that reward, thus making it less useful in training. The key is to know how to read your dog, and to be thoroughly trained in the proper application of both types of training.
I know, I know ….many will say that they knew nothing about this and their dog turned out great! Or that they never used pressure only rewards….we all heard this before.
No doubt that is true in some cases, but like people, all dogs are different and your results may vary. Dogs are amazing in their ability to overcome bad training techniques and in some cases lack of training. Sometimes, they just can figure it out!….but by learning and using tried and true techniques you can increase your odds of consistently getting the most from your dog.

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Re: tug o war

Post by birddogger » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:09 pm

polmaise wrote:I reckon it's a problem for some and not for others .
Played that game for them that don't want to ,and the same game with different rules for those that want to.
Playing games with their head is more about training them really rgreen:
I agree. The thing is there are many experienced dog people here and there are many inexperienced people here. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it for the inexperienced. Once again, JMO.

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Re: tug o war

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:19 pm

birddogger wrote:
polmaise wrote:I reckon it's a problem for some and not for others .
Played that game for them that don't want to ,and the same game with different rules for those that want to.
Playing games with their head is more about training them really rgreen:
I agree. The thing is there are many experienced dog people here and there are many inexperienced people here. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it for the inexperienced. Once again, JMO.

Charlie
It's always a crap shoot when open forum ! Even the experienced in posting can come across as experienced to the inexperienced ?..Sounds 'Big headed in text' . But ,just because someone is a moderator or a poster with many counts on a board or many likes from others does not make them an expert ! ...neither am I :wink:

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Re: tug o war

Post by Swampbilly » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:01 pm

Neil wrote:There are those that argue an ear pinch is pressure, not punishment; but my dogs would say otherwise.
Neil,
Might be mis-understanding your post, but,
Respectfully-
It is pressure.
Unless you sat them down and told 'em they were being punished and not FF'd, they wouldn't know it :wink:

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Re: tug o war

Post by birddogger » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:22 pm

polmaise wrote:
birddogger wrote:
polmaise wrote:I reckon it's a problem for some and not for others .
Played that game for them that don't want to ,and the same game with different rules for those that want to.
Playing games with their head is more about training them really rgreen:
I agree. The thing is there are many experienced dog people here and there are many inexperienced people here. Personally, I wouldn't recommend it for the inexperienced. Once again, JMO.

Charlie
It's always a crap shoot when open forum ! Even the experienced in posting can come across as experienced to the inexperienced ?..Sounds 'Big headed in text' . But ,just because someone is a moderator or a poster with many counts on a board or many likes from others does not make them an expert ! ...neither am I :wink:
I don't speak or interpret "riddles" so I am not sure if this is meant to be an insult or just an observation. I have never claimed to be an expert, but like you, I do have many years experience and not talking about posts on the internet but handling and training birddogs. Having said that, I am here to continually learn and contribute when I can. I also try to do it in a respectful manner.

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Re: tug o war

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:30 pm

birddogger wrote: I am here to continually learn and contribute when I can. I also try to do it in a respectful manner.

Charlie
Good for you Charlie ! well done ,hope we can all do the same . :wink:

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Re: tug o war

Post by birddogger » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:44 pm

polmaise wrote:
birddogger wrote: I am here to continually learn and contribute when I can. I also try to do it in a respectful manner.

Charlie
Good for you Charlie ! well done ,hope we can all do the same . :wink:
Thanks, I appreciate it.

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Re: tug o war

Post by Timewise65 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:53 am

Some on here obviously really do not want to 'learn'! If you do not take the time to read, consider, and then research the facts, you will never learn! I don't expect folks to believe what is posted on this website. But, intellectually you should become curious when someone provides a perspective different than what you believe to be true. When that happens do some good research and reading ... you might actually gain knowledge that will lead you to making better training decisions on you pup!

Their is a big difference between how dogs and people learn and comprehend information and experiences they have. If you do not believe this do your own research!

Talking about a dog perceiving 'punishment' when pressure is being used, simply is hog wash, if in fact you understand how dogs think.

Unless you take a stick and beat the dog where the dog can picture the pain coming from you directly, they cannot associate the pressure to the trainer. They can only associate this pressure to something they are doing or not doing at the time, and that is at the heart of how you LEARN to use pressure! If you do not understand this, you should stop trying to train dogs....!

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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:32 am

Timewise,

That is some indictment! And much of it is your questionable opinion.

Most animal psychologists would consider an ear pinch punishment, pressure creates discomfort, that is why it works as the dog learns to turn it off. The pressure induced discomfort of a toe hitch or ear pinch is why a dog opens his mouth.

If you do not think pressure, in extreme, is painful, go put your finger in a bench vice and crank it down with all your strength. There is a reason most doing force fetch leave their thumbnails untrimed.

To suggest the only way to administer punishment is to beat with a stick totally ignores the effectiveness of the e-collar as an aversion tool.

Just because we disagree with you does not mean we are ignorant. And identifying something correctly does not mean we are against it. I am a firm believer in the importance of force fetching.

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Re: tug o war

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:01 am

And there is a reason they call it "Forced Fetch".
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Re: tug o war

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:36 am

An animal psychologist or behaviorist would not call an ear pinch "punishment" unless it was one of the following two scenarios:

1. The ear pinch reduced or suppressed a particular behavior (not the case during proper FF).

Or...

2. They did not understand the working definition of "punishment" in a behavioral sense.
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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:07 pm

Trying hard to keep this simple without pseudo science mumbo jumbo that is little understood by most.

Dogs pretty much divide their time between seeking pleasure and avoiding discomfort.

Pressure sure isn't pleasure. Nor is an electric stimulus pleasurable, no mater how slight. I have never seen a dog respond to the very low levels of an e-collar without first experiencing higher levels.

Like most I use as little discomfort as I think possible, but certainly I am not in the pleasure (treats) only camp. In fact I have never seen any dog trained reliably at extreme range without experiencing some discomfort.

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Re: tug o war

Post by polmaise » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:12 pm

I'm sure the dogs understand it better than Humans :lol:

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Re: tug o war

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:40 pm

Neil wrote:
Pressure sure isn't pleasure. Nor is an electric stimulus pleasurable, no mater how slight. I have never seen a dog respond to the very low levels of an e-collar without first experiencing higher levels.
Pure gold right there. :wink:
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Re: tug o war

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:05 pm

Neil wrote:Trying hard to keep this simple without pseudo science mumbo jumbo that is little understood by most.

Dogs pretty much divide their time between seeking pleasure and avoiding discomfort.

Pressure sure isn't pleasure. Nor is an electric stimulus pleasurable, no mater how slight. I have never seen a dog respond to the very low levels of an e-collar without first experiencing higher levels.

Like most I use as little discomfort as I think possible, but certainly I am not in the pleasure (treats) only camp. In fact I have never seen any dog trained reliably at extreme range without experiencing some discomfort.
I agree with you! Minus the words I put in bold.

Sensible trainers and sensible people understand there are benefits to have balance, and Neil, I think you would agree with that.
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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:26 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:
Neil wrote:Trying hard to keep this simple without pseudo science mumbo jumbo that is little understood by most.

Dogs pretty much divide their time between seeking pleasure and avoiding discomfort.

Pressure sure isn't pleasure. Nor is an electric stimulus pleasurable, no mater how slight. I have never seen a dog respond to the very low levels of an e-collar without first experiencing higher levels.

Like most I use as little discomfort as I think possible, but certainly I am not in the pleasure (treats) only camp. In fact I have never seen any dog trained reliably at extreme range without experiencing some discomfort.
I agree with you! Minus the words I put in bold.

Sensible trainers and sensible people understand there are benefits to have balance, and Neil, I think you would agree with that.
Of course I agree. It is when you get out of balance you have problems.

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Re: tug o war

Post by Timewise65 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:38 pm

Neil and others who try and discredit the facts I have presented only show yourselves to have limited desire to learn. It also exposes the fact that you have done no actual research on dog phycology or dog training. None of what I have stated is my opinion and it all is well documented in most science based books on dog phycology and training. I would give you a list of citations, but I can tell by your comments that you have no desire to learn anything about the subject.

So keep up the babble so those of us that have done the reading, research, and reading know who you are all that have not!

What many do not understand is how truly amazing dogs are! They can learn to retrieve, use their nose, quarter, honor, etc. etc. even if the trainer has limited knowledge and experience providing that their owner takes the time and effort to train with the dog.

But-- a well trained trainer will take that same dog and add style, consistency, dependability, and help the dog become as good of a gun dog that it can become. If you want your dogs to be all they can be.....become a student of training learning all you can learn....

:mrgreen: Question is, what kind of a trainer are you?

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Re: tug o war

Post by Timewise65 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:51 pm

[quote="Neil"]Timewise,


"Most animal psychologists would consider an ear pinch punishment, pressure creates discomfort, that is why it works as the dog learns to turn it off. The pressure induced discomfort of a toe hitch or ear pinch is why a dog opens his mouth."



Neil,
You totally missed or ignored this point. Below is, again, the dictionary definition of "punishment". A Dog does not perceive an ear pinch or collar burn as "punishment". See definition below:

PUNISHMENT
a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution

b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
c : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

The dog feels the pain or pressure....but the do not associate that it is coming from you....unless you are standing in front of them beating them with a stick! That is very key to understanding training.

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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:23 pm

Would you please read your own definition.

Pain equals punishment, it matters not if the dog thought it came from you, the ground, a tree, or the heavens, if it causes discomfort it is not pleasure, it is punishment. I don't know about your dogs, but mine are smart enough to figure out when I reach and pinch their ear it is coming from me!

You are out of your depth. You are not the smartest person on this board, please stop acting like it.

You are not going to get anyone to believe that the only way you can punish a dog is to stand in front of it and beat with a stick. That is just nonsense.

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Re: tug o war

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:34 pm

I don't quite understand when two people who believe in the same procedure find it necessary to argue over what is the proper way to say it. An ear pinch is an ear pinch that makes a dog open its mouth because it hurts. What difference does it make whether you call it punishment or not? It is a procedure that works and that we can all agree on. Well maybe not here on a forum. And no matter what you call it, it has no bearing on your relative IQ.
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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:37 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I don't quite understand when two people who believe in the same procedure find it necessary to argue over what is the proper way to say it. An ear pinch is an ear pinch that makes a dog open its mouth because it hurts. What difference does it make whether you call it punishment or not? It is a procedure that works and that we can all agree on. Well maybe not here on a forum.
Good point.

I started not to respond, but I was demeaned by name.

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Re: tug o war

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:17 pm

I think the issue with calling the ear pinch "punishment" is that it gives AR activists something to try and stand on to say gun dog trainers punish dogs unnecessarily. When we use sound scientific principles, such as negative reinforcement (part of operant conditioning), we give more credit to what we do as trainers.

The opposite of pleasure is not punishment. And the opposite of punishment is not pleasure. But reinforcement is definitely the opposite of punishment.
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Re: tug o war

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:02 am

O.K. I confess to the crime of not having read the books and research done by "eminent" doggy people among the scientific community. I've never really needed to . I think dogs are fairly simple creatures so if you think "simply" you will do fine.
Overthink it and you will confuse the dog as well as yourself.

I don't train F.F. which is maybe my loss but if breeders have done their job then they will have done much of the "training" for me.

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Re: tug o war

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:25 pm

Trekmoor wrote:O.K. I confess to the crime of not having read the books and research done by "eminent" doggy people among the scientific community. I've never really needed to . I think dogs are fairly simple creatures so if you think "simply" you will do fine.
Overthink it and you will confuse the dog as well as yourself.

I don't train F.F. which is maybe my loss but if breeders have done their job then they will have done much of the "training" for me.

Bill T.
I can't agree more. If someone would elect me king I would outlaw FF for any dog in competition. Someone smarter than me will have to figure out how to enforce that. Maybe we should give a title and use the FF in front of their name. All I am saying is I don't care if anyone FF their dogs but it does bother me when looking for a dog to breed to or just a pup from a littler and I have no idea if th parents or stud dog retrieves naturally. I am from the old school where retrieving was on an equal footing as pointing and still think a well bred hunting dog should do both if it deserves accolades of any kind. Bill T., in this scenario, the older I get the better they were.
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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:03 pm

I share the importance of natural ability, but you would have to extend the same footnote for pointing. Because by the time they get through the Buddy Stick, the barrel, May pole, etc. regimen, heck if I can tell what is natural and what is trained with my own dogs, let alone one I am judging.

Perhaps that is why I value the demonstrated ability to search for wild birds so highly, I don't know anyone can train that.

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Re: tug o war

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:07 pm

Neil wrote:I share the importance of natural ability, but you would have to extend the same footnote for pointing. Because by the time they get through the Buddy Stick, the barrel, May pole, etc. regimen, heck if I can tell what is natural and what is trained with my own dogs, let alone one I am judging.

Perhaps that is why I value the demonstrated ability to search for wild birds so highly, I don't know anyone can train that.


I have never seen a pointer trained to point. We used to think we could style them up a little but result say we probably can't even though many of us use it for an excuse to put our hands on the dog when it points and is steady. I also have never seen a dog that I could determine what he was hunting from watching and after seeing all that they will point I am sure they are hunting most anything that moves and they never seem to care how wild we think the animal is. They are just hunting whatever and as they get older they seem to restrict themselves a little to hunt what we will shoot. But that is not a given with any dog as proven by the turtles, porkies, snakes, and even mice if they are bored. So basically my experience is if it moves unless you do some serious avoidance training. So I can remember the days when I have seem wild and tame turkeys, wild and tame deer, wild and tame chickens, native and released pheasants, quail and partridge, wild coyotes, and a couple of cats pointed and not once were any of them labeled or did we ask "Are you wild?" We just got to give our dogs credit for what the so learn and that pretty much comes from experience with some persuasion from us on how to best handle each.
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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:49 pm

Our experiences are so different that we have little common ground in which to meet.

You would have to experience what transpires with the Buddy Stick and whoa barrel, and on to the May pigeon pole to understand. When a dog graduates they point. They point at high style at both ends. All of them.

And without diversion training they are developed to seek the habitat most likely to hold wild upland game birds. I often times have seen 50 dogs run in a trial looking willy nilly for anything alive as you say, while one or two dogs consistently find birds. Time and time again, defying luck. I know dogs that rarely go birdless.

These are rather new training developments, not unlike force fetching, if you have not seen it, it is hard to understand and accept.

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Re: tug o war

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:15 pm

Must admit I don't understand it Neil although I accept that things like F.F. , whoa posts, barrels and "styling" the point are probably necessary to win in your trials. I don't use any of those things but when I was younger and fitter I still did a bit of winning in trials. I depended upon the breeder for the hunting/pointing abilities of my dogs as well as their "natural" retrieves. If the breeder had not done most of the work for me then I would not have done well in trials.

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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:36 pm

Bill,

I am not saying it is a good thing, I am telling you what I see and know. Other than proper hunting for birds, if a dog can do it naturally, it can be trained. Pointing, backing, retrieving, handling, cooperation; all of it is now trained.

For an experienced trainer it is all fine, they are going to put every dog through it. But for the new or casual trainer, we may well be doing them a disservice.

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Re: tug o war

Post by cjhills » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:37 pm

My question is if a dog does it naturally why does it need to be trained. If we can breed dogs to do what a bird dog needs to do naturally we are doing the dogs a disservice if we do not do it. Breeding the natural point, retrieve and honor out of pointing dogs because we can train for it is definitely a disservice......................Cj

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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:55 pm

cjhills wrote:My question is if a dog does it naturally why does it need to be trained. If we can breed dogs to do what a bird dog needs to do naturally we are doing the dogs a disservice if we do not do it. Breeding the natural point, retrieve and honor out of pointing dogs because we can train for it is definitely a disservice......................Cj
I don't disagree. But the top trainers are all doing it, and if you are going to compete, you better, too. There is just no logical reason to take the chance and not train it, if you can. I am not sure we are breeding it out, neccassarily. We are just not waiting to see if it is natural. Who waits until a dog is 2 years old to see?

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Re: tug o war

Post by SCT » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:13 pm

Train a dog to point and wonder why they have so many unproductives (or an older, better phrase, "false points"). And the worst....fixing tails. What a shame!! It's all about greed and instant gratification. I'll stick with breeding natural bird dogs with extreme intensity. My kind of style!

Steve

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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:27 pm

OK, I am not selling anything, just casually explained if you are opposed to force fetching, you would do well to question the pointing and backing.

The only real test is the intelligent hunt.

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Re: tug o war

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:04 pm

SCT wrote:Train a dog to point and wonder why they have so many unproductives (or an older, better phrase, "false points"). And the worst....fixing tails. What a shame!! It's all about greed and instant gratification. I'll stick with breeding natural bird dogs with extreme intensity. My kind of style!

Steve
I have seen both greed and instant gratification and I don't see much sign of either but I do see a competitive situation where their is a lot of pressure to win. It happens with every game man has invented, and after a few years people will see that they need to do something else to win and then we will have a new wave of training. It's the same old pendulum theory where we never stop at the right point but just continue to swing through it from one side to the other. This is exactly why I have never been able to accept that trials is the end-all game of bird dogs.
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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:51 pm

I have not realized there is a pendulum, in my experience it has been a steady March. I attended my first trial in 1963, at that time the old guys were predicting its demise.

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Re: tug o war

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:56 am

It must be getting hard for newcomers to know where to find good gundog breeders and it must be getting harder all the time.
Really keen newcomers want really good pups so they naturally go to strong field trial breeding where there is a high success rate.
They can buy a pup but they cannot buy the trainer to go with it . If the pup they buy needs a lot more "nurture" because it didn't get much of a help from "nature" then the newcomer will be in trouble.

Personally I would be very sorry to see natural ability in dogs be replaced by training ability in humans.

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Re: tug o war

Post by cjhills » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:36 am

Trekmoor wrote:It must be getting hard for newcomers to know where to find good gundog breeders and it must be getting harder all the time.
Really keen newcomers want really good pups so they naturally go to strong field trial breeding where there is a high success rate.
They can buy a pup but they cannot buy the trainer to go with it . If the pup they buy needs a lot more "nurture" because it didn't get much of a help from "nature" then the newcomer will be in trouble.

Personally I would be very sorry to see natural ability in dogs be replaced by training ability in humans.

Bill T.
This is exactly my belief.
The average puppy buyer is looking for a family dog, which will do an adequate job of hunting. They have little or no use for a dog who needs to be trained in every hunting skill except running and finding birds.
When the puppy they bought to hunt with, because it has a great pedigree, is busting birds at three hundred yards they are in serious trouble. It is either a few grand at a trainer or a different dog.
I have NSTRA people tell me all they are interested in is the nose because they can train everything else. Maybe so. I just hate to think I spent all these years experiment and trying to breed natural dogs for no reason. Because you can pay somebody to train what I like to see the dog do naturally........Cj

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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:47 am

CJ,

You are right.

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Re: tug o war

Post by SCT » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:08 am

cjhills wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:It must be getting hard for newcomers to know where to find good gundog breeders and it must be getting harder all the time.
Really keen newcomers want really good pups so they naturally go to strong field trial breeding where there is a high success rate.
They can buy a pup but they cannot buy the trainer to go with it . If the pup they buy needs a lot more "nurture" because it didn't get much of a help from "nature" then the newcomer will be in trouble.

Personally I would be very sorry to see natural ability in dogs be replaced by training ability in humans.

Bill T.
This is exactly my belief.
The average puppy buyer is looking for a family dog, which will do an adequate job of hunting. They have little or no use for a dog who needs to be trained in every hunting skill except running and finding birds.
When the puppy they bought to hunt with, because it has a great pedigree, is busting birds at three hundred yards they are in serious trouble. It is either a few grand at a trainer or a different dog.
I have NSTRA people tell me all they are interested in is the nose because they can train everything else. Maybe so. I just hate to think I spent all these years experiment and trying to breed natural dogs for no reason. Because you can pay somebody to train what I like to see the dog do naturally........Cj
Both are good posts!If

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Re: tug o war

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:48 pm

SCT wrote:[

Both are good posts!If
:lol: Yep ! IF ! Maybe in an ideal world in another time dimension. :roll:

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Re: tug o war

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:25 pm

cjhills wrote:My question is if a dog does it naturally why does it need to be trained. If we can breed dogs to do what a bird dog needs to do naturally we are doing the dogs a disservice if we do not do it. Breeding the natural point, retrieve and honor out of pointing dogs because we can train for it is definitely a disservice......................Cj
I really think you're all right, no dog should EVER have to be TAUGHT to point or TAUGHT to retrieve. I have never seen a dog that was a terrible retriever become a great retriever through force. Retriever trainers use force because sometimes on tight or technical blinds, the dog refuses to go and they have a way to make it. Basically it is just used to make sure a dog has a beautiful delivery and has nothing to do with retrieving ability.

A dog with little to no relieving desire that has been forced looks like it. They're never good at it and always hate it and are very easy by anyone to spot. It's not unusual to see force awaken a latent desire to retrieve in a dog and have them become fabulous retrievers but that's a whole different issue.
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Re: tug o war

Post by polmaise » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:47 pm

I reckon when they are all born they are perfect .
Some just mess them up :lol: :)

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Re: tug o war

Post by Neil » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:30 pm

I think the point you all are missing, we have developed a complete program from puppyhood that when completed they all point with high style; so we never know if they naturally point or not.

Some might opine that if they did not have a genetic predisposition to point the program would not be successful, I am of the belief I could get a collie to point.

I believe it is giant step from that to the demise of field trials or to discredit all trial breeding.

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Re: tug o war

Post by polmaise » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:35 pm

Neil wrote: I am of the belief I could get a collie to point.
Well, It can 'stare' ,so you are half way there :wink:

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Re: tug o war

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:13 pm

Neil wrote:I think the point you all are missing, we have developed a complete program from puppyhood that when completed they all point with high style; so we never know if they naturally point or not.

Some might opine that if they did not have a genetic predisposition to point the program would not be successful, I am of the belief I could get a collie to point.

I believe it is giant step from that to the demise of field trials or to discredit all trial breeding.
I have never seen anyone teach a dog to point. The trainers I know and some of them would be ranked up with the best have never taught one that they admit too at least. And the puppies pretty much show us their instinct and ability to point before they are 8 weeks old so I am not sure where you are coming from.
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