tug o war

[polmaise]

Eazzy now Ezzy!! You will have 'Wing on a string' and 'whoa barrels' and 'singing' on horse back along with wonder leads and long lines

[polmaise]

have been working with our 11 week gsp, she will retreive some but she loves to play tug o war. any tips for her making the retreive the part thats fun

Yea. Don't take it

[Neil]

Ezzy, I am now thinking you haven't spoken with any of the current top trainers, they will tell you they will all point, some will qualify it with all well bred pups will point. You are aware that they have been unable to isolate a pointing gene. A cat points! It is what all mammal predators do, well I am not sure about bears.

You need to get current.

[shags]

I think the point you all are missing, we have developed a complete program from puppyhood that when completed they all point with high style; so we never know if they naturally point or not.

Some might opine that if they did not have a genetic predisposition to point the program would not be successful, I am of the belief I could get a collie to point.

I believe it is giant step from that to the demise of field trials or to discredit all trial breeding.

I have never seen anyone teach a dog to point. The trainers I know and some of them would be ranked up with the best have never taught one that they admit too at least. And the puppies pretty much show us their instinct and ability to point before they are 8 weeks old so I am not sure where you are coming from.

I agree, Ezzy. No matter the breed, they have to jave some kind of natural point in order to do anything with them. Sure, anyone can teach any dog to stop on scent, but that's just standing there, not pointing. My jagdterrier sometimes points, kinda-sorta, but it's ugly
C'mon, Neil...surely you can tell a real, instinctual point from one that's been installed where none was naturally. Check out the eyes, they'll tell the truth.

[ezzy333]

I think the point you all are missing, we have developed a complete program from puppyhood that when completed they all point with high style; so we never know if they naturally point or not.

Some might opine that if they did not have a genetic predisposition to point the program would not be successful, I am of the belief I could get a collie to point.

I believe it is giant step from that to the demise of field trials or to discredit all trial breeding.

Ezzy, I am now thinking you haven't spoken with any of the current top trainers, they will tell you they will all point, some will qualify it with all well bred pups will point. You are aware that they have been unable to isolate a pointing gene. A cat points! It is what all mammal predators do, well I am not sure about bears.

You need to get current.

You are trying to confuse I think. First you don't know if they will point due to our complete puppy program and then you say all trainers know they all point. I think you will be waiting a long time if you are waiting to find a pointing gene since it is not a gene but just the need to gather themselves before the pounce to catch. You are right that all animals tend to do that. But due to our continued breeding and selecting the ones that do it the longest we have been able to alter the instinct a little so that we now have pointers but also some that have not been bred to do it still just flush but even those in many or most cases still stop for an instance and then try to catch. Just an example of what can be done with selective breeding. Exactly the same as selecting for color or size or tail carriage, ear carriage, or even movement such as running or turning. Not a gene difference but might be a change in structure or physical ability. Thanks for your concern about me not having currents but I much prefer gooseberries. lol

[Neil]

I have seen too many dogs slam to an off balance, twisted point, only to stack up on command with both nose and tail pointing to the stars to believe they are just stopping. You can watch them get even higher after the flush, which has to be trained and is of no real value.

How you can accept force fetch and question forced (or trained) point is confusing.

If a dog can physically do it, it can be trained. You really need to see a Tracy or Buddy Smith trained dog to appreciate what I am saying.

Ezzy, there is no contradiction in what I have said.

[mnaj_springer]

I have seen too many dogs slam to an off balance, twisted point, only to stack up on command with both nose and tail pointing to the stars to believe they are just stopping. You can watch them get even higher after the flush, which has to be trained and is of no real value.

Why would anyone ever want to change this (what I bolded)? I love those points!

[Neil]

The snarky answer is those that want to find their dog in high cover and those that want to win field trials with less experienced judges.

But I am not sure the 3 or 4 inches in height helps all that much in visibility and even though going down on point is a major flaw, a child should be able to tell difference.

The one that bothers me even more is continuing to judge the point after the flush and shot, after the dog's job is done. They justify it by saying that the dog is showing pride and confidence, and to relax shows the dog is cowering from being harshly trained.

Explaining this is not an endorsement.

I wish Ray would drop by and testify to what he sees with the Tracy dogs. I think they do it because they can and it wins.

[Trekmoor]

Do the setters in field trials have to "stand tall ?" Setters are supposed to "set" which is a very different posture from standing tall.

Bill T.

[shags]

Well, it depends. In FDSB trials, a lofty stance is desired. In AKC trials there is more latitude and a lower stance is generally acceptable. IDK about NSTRA or UKC.

[Neil]

Do the setters in field trials have to "stand tall ?" Setters are supposed to "set" which is a very different posture from standing tall.

Bill T.

Yes, you only have to look at Buddy Smith started 2x NC Bo to know. And the Bird Dog Museum has paintings and photos of 19th century setters with a lofty pose to understand it has long been preferred. This low pointing stance is a myth perpetrated by European breeders, from the beginning North America breeders have prized high style. (Although for a period they liked a level tail).

[Trekmoor]

Each to his own where style is concerned. What I see among setters here is not a "myth." I see setters that sometimes do and sometimes do not "set." I have seen setters and other pointing breeds too, almost flat on their bellies among the heather when pointing grouse. I have sometimes seen the same style on pheasants too and on partridge.

I think this possibly happens when an experienced dog gets too close in to birds before it scents them. The dog has learned from experience that those birds feel threatened and may fly off so it tries to reduce the "threat" by lowering itself during the point.
I used to have a very experienced Brittany that behaved in exactly the same way and for the same reason .... I think ?

I noticed with that Brittany that at the start of the grouse shooting season she'd point mainly while standing upright but once the grouse became more wary after being shot at , she'd drop down into a setterish crouch. This could happen at as much as 30-40 yards from the grouse.

It is a pretty common behaviour among predators, cats and foxes do much the same thing.

Bill T.

[Trekmoor]

This is a photograph taken about a week ago of a 9 months old Gordon Setter pup pointing a pheasant among the reeds.
She isn't down into the full "set" but she's not far off it. It is a way of pointing that I often see here among most breeds, not just setters.



Bill T.

[cjhills]

My absolute best ever Hun dog points high on coveys at fifty to one hundred yards and almost sets on close singles
I guess this does not have a lot to do with tug which I do not do.........Cj

[polmaise]

I guess this does not have a lot to do with tug which I do not do.........Cj

+1

[Sharon]

Not much more to say about"tug of war" , it has been 4 pages now! Who da thunk it.

[Spy Car]

Not much more to say about"tug of war" , it has been 4 pages now! Who da thunk it.

There is still "subtext" that those who chose to look for it can see. When one nurtures the innate qualities a gundog is born with, and shapes them though play in puppyhood, one need not resort to measures like force fetch.

It is failure to cultivate things a good dog will do naturally. A pup learning to give and take during a game of fetch is a perfect example of good practices. But old wife's persist, with the natural consequences that follow.

Bill

[ezzy333]

Not much more to say about"tug of war" , it has been 4 pages now! Who da thunk it.

There is still "subtext" that those who chose to look for it can see. When one nurtures the innate qualities a gundog is born with, and shapes them though play in puppyhood, one need not resort to measures like force fetch.

It is failure to cultivate things a good dog will do naturally. A pup learning to give and take during a game of fetch is a perfect example of good practices. But old wife's persist, with the natural consequences that follow.

Bill

You forgot to add IMO.

[mnaj_springer]

I was going to respond to Spy Car, but Ezzy's right. It's his opinion, and simply that.

[Neil]

As for setters sitting, there is evidence the good ones have not since 1890.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12980

[ezzy333]

As for setters sitting, there is evidence the good ones have not since 1890.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12980

Neil, what is the point? Those of ue that have been around for q while have seen setters set, Bill is telling you as well as showing you what he sees everyday in the UK, History books show and tell so now you are tweeking your post to tell us the good ones haven't since 1890. Did you take pictures to prove that is when they decided to quit? The thing is they did, some still do, and some will tomorrow and in the end there is few who care and none care as to when as well as no one you or I know is capable of deciding which one are the good ones and which aren't. I am at a loss as to why you decide to argue about things that make so little difference in our lives. Sounds like you are bored. Maybe just maybe, you can discuss which year puppies decided to play tug of war which is the topic of this thread and if there is nothing more to say lets just go to another post and discuss something some one wants to know.

[Neil]

I was not the first to take this thread off topic, and until now you have contributed.

Any dog harshly trained will wilt on point. And I did not decide which were good ones, those esteemed electors of the Field Trial Hall of Fame did. A dog sitting on point in North America has never been considered proper, and it is a myth they did so to cast a net. The ones that sit are cowering, then and now.

Not sure what has triggered your aggression, but that is twice you have you have personally attacked me without provocation.

[bhulisa]

Neil said :

The ones that sit are cowering, then and now.

Perhaps you should travel overseas some and watch Setters in a variety of countries. Like it or not, the lower pointing stance, or even setting stance, is genetically programmed into many of them. You might reduce the tendency with training techniques, but it is there and they are far more likely to set than any other breed.

No doubt in the USA, selective breeding for a higher pointing stance has modified this.

Just my observation of Setters from a variety of countries and bloodlines and of course, IMHO.

[Neil]

Thought I have been clear to state "- in North America". Setters do have a tendency to go down on point, and to demonstrate that softness in other ways; but it has nothing to do with nets. That is the myth.

[s223196]

well, that was alotof advice to take in. but I do appriciate it. She is doing alot better using treats for a trade. And she retreives every time a toy is thrown. now to work on getting her to come when called.

[Bacon1676]

well, that was alotof advice to take in. but I do appriciate it. She is doing alot better using treats for a trade. And she retreives every time a toy is thrown. now to work on getting her to come when called.

Lol... Got a little more than what you asked for?! . I will say that I have enjoyed reading most of the replys with everyone's perspective; as they say there is more than one way to skin a cat, I don't know another way but would like to learn.

[Sharon]

well, that was alotof advice to take in. but I do appriciate it. She is doing alot better using treats for a trade. And she retreives every time a toy is thrown. now to work on getting her to come when called.

Glad you are happier with your dog.

You may not ask another questions agaIn . LOL