force fetch questio

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jbk2
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force fetch questio

Post by jbk2 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:01 pm

At my dog trainers advise, i started my first gun dog on force fetch about 2 weeks ago. We are at the hold stage. When he was made to be still and hold it was a struggle like he was bored but we got threw that. Now that he is moving around the table he seems to be more consistant with it. Not dropping the dummy or bird at all. Seems like his focus is more on walking on the table than the bird in his mouth. My question is this normal? For him to be more focused on the walking on table than the object in his mouth? I am new to the training of the dog and i am learning as much as him. I hope the question makes sense.
Thanks in advance

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:50 am

From what I'm reading, it sounds like he's figured it out. Nice work. Out of curiosity, how often and how long are your training sessions?
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jbk2
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Re: force fetch questio

Post by jbk2 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:37 pm

We train everyday for about 10 or 15 min. That brings another question up. Should i be working him for longer each day? I just chose that cause everything (as well as trainer he goes to) have said keep it short a end on a good note so he has fun. When trainer told me that it was more for when he was younger and we were working on obedience and smaller things. It seems to be working well, he is catching on quick and every evening when i grab a bird and go to the table he is trying to jump up on table (its a little high for him to jump up on right now)
Thanks again

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gundogguy
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Re: force fetch questio

Post by gundogguy » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:41 pm

jbk2 wrote:At my dog trainers advise, i started my first gun dog on force fetch about 2 weeks ago. We are at the hold stage. When he was made to be still and hold it was a struggle like he was bored but we got threw that. Now that he is moving around the table he seems to be more consistant with it. Not dropping the dummy or bird at all. Seems like his focus is more on walking on the table than the bird in his mouth. My question is this normal? For him to be more focused on the walking on table than the object in his mouth? I am new to the training of the dog and i am learning as much as him. I hope the question makes sense.
Thanks in advance
I'm not sure what progress you have made so far. However for some dogs just getting use to the process takes a week or two. By process I mean being on an elevated surface let alone holding an object in their mouth. This activity is about learned behavior, the behavior of retrieving. If you break it done the behavior is actually taught backwards from how a retrieve actually is. In the beginning the dog usually has no good idea of what your asking it to do. What you are referring to as boredom, I would venture to call it "avoidance". Avoidance because in the brief period of time that you introduced an elevated surface to the dog It has no idea what you are asking of it!.
As a starting point go to You tube google force fetch training there you will find hundreds of video clips of the process. Some are excellent so not so good. Remember during the procedure leave something in it for the dog.
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Re: force fetch questio

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:51 pm

Hmmm ? Are we talking FF or Force hold ? Like Gundogguy says 'Backchaining' is showing the process from the end rather than the start. So the table would be the hold and hold on to ,would it not ?
Or am I missing something ?

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by CDN_Cocker » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:27 pm

I'm a bit confused with the walking around on the table part?
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Re: force fetch questio

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:31 pm

I kept my FF sessions at 10 to 15 minutes with my spaniel, working her 2 to 3 times a day, like Gundogguy said, the association is slow. One thing about length is you will have to get to the point where you apply pressure, otherwise it won't work. I guess what I'm saying is when you start doing the ear-pinch (or whatever you do for pressure) the dog learns from its failures during FF. Not saying you should be cruel, but the force is necessary to reinforce that there is a consequence for complying.

Could you video a session and show us?
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Re: force fetch questio

Post by oldbeek » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:58 pm

Sounds like you are making progress. I did 2 or 3 short sessions per day. I used Standing Stone Kennels U-tube vidios and procedure. I transitioned to the e-collar as soon as the dog was ready.. She was hard headed at first but is near perfect now. It was my first time with FF also. I transitioned to her name (MISSY) instead of fetch. This is needed when working with several dogs.

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:32 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:I'm a bit confused with the walking around on the table part?
Uh huh..same here.

Does sound like there is some progress, but the dog should not be moving about the table at will whenever he feels like it.
FETCH is a command..it's non-negotiable, and the dog SITS there (another non-negotiable), until commanded to do so. When you start working the dog from one end of the table to the other with objects, he still SITS there until commanded to FETCH.
Would respectfully disagree with dog learning from it's "failures"-
He learns more from it's success.

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:14 am

jbk2 wrote:At my dog trainers advise, i started my first gun dog on force fetch about 2 weeks ago. We are at the hold stage. When he was made to be still and hold it was a struggle like he was bored but we got threw that. Now that he is moving around the table he seems to be more consistant with it. Not dropping the dummy or bird at all. Seems like his focus is more on walking on the table than the bird in his mouth. My question is this normal? For him to be more focused on the walking on table than the object in his mouth? I am new to the training of the dog and i am learning as much as him. I hope the question makes sense.
Thanks in advance
Hard to answer your question. Can say that what's "normal" is a dog that doesn't understand pressure yet and what it means.
Would say that if your dog is more concerned about his footing on the table vs. the need to get an object in his mouth with a sense of urgency, then it doesn't understand pressure yet. After 2 weeks it's possible (probable) that the dog doesn't if you've been working on FETCH, HOLD and DROP.
What's the walking on the table all about ?

Lots of ways to train a dog, but when he Fetches the length of the table, why not Heel him back to the starting end. No walking around.
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Re: force fetch questio

Post by gundogguy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:08 am

The table or elevated surface is irrelevant in the following video the work is done on the ground with the trainer is in seated position(very comfortable work area).
Pay close attention Evan gives an awful lot information in this one clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhVdmrpvPA
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Re: force fetch questio

Post by Timewise65 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:53 am

gundogguy wrote:The table or elevated surface is irrelevant in the following video the work is done on the ground with the trainer is in seated position(very comfortable work area).
Pay close attention Evan gives an awful lot information in this one clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhVdmrpvPA
I use Evan' training tapes, books, and U Tube information. He provides a lot of free training videos on line. I have found his training methods to work very well. I think this will answer you question.

On Force Fetching, the way pressure is used, trains the dog that if you do what you have been trained to do you get love and attention. When you do not do what you have been trained to do your feel pressure that you can 'turn off' by doing what you have been trained to do.

This methodology, then makes the transition to an ecollar work very well on all future training. What you have to remember is never apply any form of pressure until you are sure the dog understands through your training what they are being asked to do. Then the association of pressure for non compliance soon becomes your biggest training tool, next to giving the dog love and appreciation when they do something well!

Good Luck

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by AlPastor » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:35 pm

jbk2 wrote:We train everyday for about 10 or 15 min. That brings another question up. Should i be working him for longer each day? I just chose that cause everything (as well as trainer he goes to) have said keep it short a end on a good note so he has fun. When trainer told me that it was more for when he was younger and we were working on obedience and smaller things. It seems to be working well, he is catching on quick and every evening when i grab a bird and go to the table he is trying to jump up on table (its a little high for him to jump up on right now)
Thanks again

I've force fetched a lot of dogs and I've always used shorter more frequently sessions. I'll usually do 3 at longest 10 minute sessions per day.

To be fair though, I've found that to be true with all training when it comes to imprinting and reinforcing a behavior. The fastest dog that we've had learn sit, whoa, and to hold both for long periods until released was the pup that coincided with my daughter being potty trained. It got a couple of minutes of work every hour as she sat on the potty.

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:37 pm

15 minutes twice a day and Smart Fetch.

A table does more good for you than the dog'; it saves your back. The dog is concerned with the table because it's a narrow, unstable platform and keeps him off balance. I don't keep them up there long, just until they're going to the ground. Actually, I don't use a table. I throw a 12" wide piece of plywood between two folding chairs. As soon as they're picking up by ear from the plank, it get them off and put them on the ground.

Just get a good program like smart fetch and follow it. Sounds like you're off to a very good start!!
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Re: force fetch questio

Post by polmaise » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:57 pm

jbk2 wrote:We are at the hold stage. When he was made to be still and hold it was a struggle like he was bored but we got threw that. Now that he is moving around the table he seems to be more consistant with it. Not dropping the dummy or bird at all. Seems like his focus is more on walking on the table than the bird in his mouth. My question is this normal? For him to be more focused on the walking on table than the object in his mouth? I am new to the training of the dog and i am learning as much as him. I hope the question makes sense.
Thanks in advance
I'm still perplexed with the moving/walking around whilst at the ''hold'' stage ? never mind 10 minutes or 15 minutes or planks of wood or tables or programs from any one .
If your process is FF ?

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by jbk2 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:23 am

ok sorry it took awhile to get back. Everyone seems to not understand the walking around on the table. my trainer, told me to get Delmar smiths force fetch dvd to work on it at home. while I was waiting to receive the dvd, I had a instruction sheet. we started working on that. at first was my hand in pups mouth until he doesn't try to spit it out, then he was to "hold" different object while stationary (bumpers, bucks, dowels, dead birds). after he got "hold", I was suppost to walk him back and forth on the table while he was holding different objects in his mouth. next we will go to the ground on a lead to walk while holding. this is all before we even start the ear and "fetch". sorry if I wasn't clear before, thanks for replys

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by jbk2 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:26 am

gonehuntin' wrote:15 minutes twice a day and Smart Fetch.

A table does more good for you than the dog'; it saves your back. The dog is concerned with the table because it's a narrow, unstable platform and keeps him off balance. I don't keep them up there long, just until they're going to the ground. Actually, I don't use a table. I throw a 12" wide piece of plywood between two folding chairs. As soon as they're picking up by ear from the plank, it get them off and put them on the ground.

Just get a good program like smart fetch and follow it. Sounds like you're off to a very good start!!
I like the table, it make him a little uncomfortable but he listens more. it saves my old welders back for sure.

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Re: force fetch questio

Post by polmaise » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:46 pm

The table would be ideal for 'hold'.
For FF not so much .
So what is your question again?

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