Leaving point?

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:57 pm

My dog will sometimes point a bird and then leave the bird and go on hunting. In training, I was perplexed. She does have a history of blinking birds during training. This last weekend while hunting wild quail with my grandsons., she put a solid point on a bush then left it before we got there. 2 birds were in the bush. The next day she slammed to a point on a pile of tumble weeds. Held the point for about 30 seconds and then left the pile. There were 8 birds in that pile. This action is interspersed with quite a few perfect points. Today she pointed at least 10 times in perfect style. I shot two for her and she held till command fetch. We are hunting silent. No unneeded commands. Just praise after flush. ? Let her learn and grow up some more?

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:22 pm

Sounds like blinking for some reason. Maybe a issue with the shot or retrieve. Maybe to much pressure keeping her steady......................Cj

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:14 am

Ditto to the above.

Bill T.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:26 am

Proceed with caution, I think you have the right idea and let her work it out. I would call mine back to the area and give a gentle whoa to wherever they pointed, even knowing there may not be birds.

Good luck, don't over react.

Bacon1676 · Post by **Bacon1676** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:22 am

Could someone explain 'blinking a bird' to me, I've seen it said a couple times now on different topics. (Sorry for highjacking the post for a second)

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:49 am

Blinking is basically the dog not acknowledging a bird that it knows is there, or in the case of the OP's dog leaving before the bad thing happens. At least, that is my definition.
Generally caused by something the dog perceives as pressure. It can be very hard to detect in some dogs and they get very good at hiding it. A dog that has gun issues or feels to much training pressure to remain steady may figure out if it does not point the bird the gun does not go off or he is not picked up by the collar and tail and carried back. Be aware it is not what you think is pressure, but what the dog thinks is pressure .
To the OP. As others have posted, proceed with caution. since Op mentioned blinking problems, it is very likely still there. watch closely to see what is causing the issue.
One other thing. Is she more likely to leave covies with multiple shots than singles.....................CJ

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:00 am

Good on being silent. most don't know how to, when dogs figuring things out. I wanted to say, let it knock a few, that way it could chase, and loosen up. Assuming its a brit by your picture. They can get lil funky, if wake up on wrong side of the bed sometimes. lol You sometimes, have to adjust accordingly. Thanks Jonesy

Bacon1676 · Post by **Bacon1676** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:23 pm

cjhills wrote:Blinking is basically the dog not acknowledging a bird that it knows is there, or in the case of the OP's dog leaving before the bad thing happens. At least, that is my definition.
Generally caused by something the dog perceives as pressure. It can be very hard to detect in some dogs and they get very good at hiding it. A dog that has gun issues or feels to much training pressure to remain steady may figure out if it does not point the bird the gun does not go off or he is not picked up by the collar and tail and carried back. Be aware it is not what you think is pressure, but what the dog thinks is pressure .
To the OP. As others have posted, proceed with caution. since Op mentioned blinking problems, it is very likely still there. watch closely to see what is causing the issue.
One other thing. Is she more likely to leave covies with multiple shots than singles.....................CJ

Thank you CJ for clearing that up for me. Greatly appreciated. Would have never expected a bird dog to ever not point a bird they knew were there.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:37 pm

I have never seen one do it in a hunting situation where they are not being pressured.
But, when I first started doing hunt tests I had a few dogs blink either the point or the back from to much pressure. funny thing was these dogs only blinked in the test, never in training or hunting. One got ear infection occasionally and would blink in a test if her ears hurt. She and I were so good at hiding it only one judge ever knew she was blinking..................cj

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:47 pm

I'm probably way out in left field here but:

"Today she pointed at least 10 times in perfect style. I shot two for her and she held till command fetch." quote

How good a shot are you? Maybe she's blinking because too many birds are missed or a retrieve is very important to her.

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:22 am

Sharon may be right. I was dog handling and grandson was shooting and missing lots of them. She does love her retrieves. Singles she points solid. Small bunches of birds she wiggles her tail a little, like, oh boy look what I have here.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:58 am

My guess is still that she is avoiding the gun or the pressure to be steady. Only one shot per bird and hope fully the bird is hit. Maybe backing off on the steadiness a bit.
There may be other possibilities, but this is the most likely scenario..........Cj

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:35 am

The only time I have seen blinking in dogs is when the owner/trainer somehow convinced the dog that birds were not fun anymore. Could be a variety of reasons for that and figuring that out was the key to making the game fun again.

birddown12 · Post by **birddown12** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:53 pm

all very interesting. Tagged for later

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:44 pm

".......Today she pointed at least 10 times in perfect style. I shot two for her and she held till command fetch." quote oldbeek

"..................How good a shot are you? Maybe she's blinking because too many birds are missed and the retrieve is very important to her." quote Sharon

oldbeek wrote:Sharon may be right. I was dog handling and grandson was shooting and missing lots of them. She does love her retrieves. Singles she points solid. Small bunches of birds she wiggles her tail a little, like, oh boy look what I have here.

edit:
I was thinking about your dog last night ( couldn't sleep) and it could be gun shyness. ..... avoiding points so dog doesn't have to hear the gun. How did you gun condition? Sh

For me , the bottom line is that it is a gun problem.Sh

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:41 pm

oldbeek wrote:My dog will sometimes point a bird and then leave the bird and go on hunting. In training, I was perplexed. She does have a history of blinking birds during training. This last weekend while hunting wild quail with my grandsons., she put a solid point on a bush then left it before we got there. 2 birds were in the bush. The next day she slammed to a point on a pile of tumble weeds. Held the point for about 30 seconds and then left the pile. There were 8 birds in that pile. This action is interspersed with quite a few perfect points. Today she pointed at least 10 times in perfect style. I shot two for her and she held till command fetch. We are hunting silent. No unneeded commands. Just praise after flush. ? Let her learn and grow up some more?

Hah!....I thought you guys believed that birds teach the bird dog ?
Red Herring ! ''oldbeek''' ?
Are those quail moving ?
No retrieve then ?

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:17 pm

I need to clarify that these instances of leaving point only happened once each day, intermingled with lots and lots of good solid points. After the birds would leave the bush she would come back and look into the same bush with tail wiggeling as to say yea there were birds in there. She left point on a chucker recently in training when the other handler called point. She went and backed the other dog. When the other dogs bird was shot and retrieved she raced back to her previous find and slammed on point as to say look at this style.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:57 pm

Thanks forthe clarification. So what did the birds teach the dog in this case/situation ?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:31 pm

polmaise wrote:Thanks forthe clarification. So what did the birds teach the dog in this case/situation ?

The bird taught the dog a most important lesson, where they are most likely to be at what time of day.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:19 pm

[quote="oldbeek"]I need to clarify that these instances of leaving point only happened once each day, intermingled with lots and lots of good solid points. After the birds would leave the bush she would come back and look into the same bush with tail wiggeling as to say yea there were birds in there. She left point on a chucker recently in training when the other handler called point. She went and backed the other dog. When the other dogs bird was shot and retrieved she raced back to her previous find and slammed on point as to say look at this style.quote]

Hmm . Perhaps more evidence that once the shooting was over she was glad to go on point.

You haven't said how you conditioned the dog to the gun yet.

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:12 pm

I conditioned dog to gun using the Perfect start method. She broke point again today once out of about 30 points. I was sure there was a bird there because she slammed to point at first. When she left it, I yelled," hay, get back there and point that bird". She went right back and locked on point again. Flushed and shot one of two birds that were there. She stood till fetch command.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:34 am

oldbeek wrote:I conditioned dog to gun using the Perfect start method. She broke point again today once out of about 30 points. I was sure there was a bird there because she slammed to point at first. When she left it, I yelled," hay, get back there and point that bird". She went right back and locked on point again. Flushed and shot one of two birds that were there. She stood till fetch command.

She is tired of being your robot?

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:22 pm

oldbeek wrote:I conditioned dog to gun using the Perfect start method. She broke point again today once out of about 30 points. I was sure there was a bird there because she slammed to point at first. When she left it, I yelled," hay, get back there and point that bird". She went right back and locked on point again. Flushed and shot one of two birds that were there. She stood till fetch command.

LOL So strange . I never saw such a thing.

If you figure this out please let us know.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:38 pm

Sharon wrote:
oldbeek wrote:I conditioned dog to gun using the Perfect start method. She broke point again today once out of about 30 points. I was sure there was a bird there because she slammed to point at first. When she left it, I yelled," hay, get back there and point that bird". She went right back and locked on point again. Flushed and shot one of two birds that were there. She stood till fetch command.
LOL So strange . I never saw such a thing. If you figure this out please let us know.

It was all too common before variable e-collars.

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:36 pm

This dog is not a robot. She can't wait to get her collar on. It has a tone setting and that is all I use to get her attention. Usually when she is ranging out at 300 yards to remind her if she ignores the whistle. At NSTRA trials several judges have commented to how happy she is. That tail never stops. When pointing several birds in a bush the point usually starts with a tail wagging point. I may have it figured out. Most of these broken points are in tumble weed patches, interspersed with open desert. The dried tumbleweeds are taller than her. These birds will not flush until stepped on. When asked to move into the patch to pin point them, she doesn't like it, but she will do it. Some of these patches are 30 X 60 ft and she will be pointing from the down wind side. Only had one GSP that would crash these kind of weed piles and be happy to do it. One Brittany that I had absolutely refused to venture into them. I think the mystery is solved. She would rather point singles in a single bush. Thanks for the replys. It helps to talk it out.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:04 pm

Neil wrote:
Sharon wrote:
oldbeek wrote:I conditioned dog to gun using the Perfect start method. She broke point again today once out of about 30 points. I was sure there was a bird there because she slammed to point at first. When she left it, I yelled," hay, get back there and point that bird". She went right back and locked on point again. Flushed and shot one of two birds that were there. She stood till fetch command.
LOL So strange . I never saw such a thing. If you figure this out please let us know.
It was all too common before variable e-collars.

Really. Wow; just never been part of my experience with any dog. Still confused though. You don't use an e collar to keep a dog on point. I never had a dog that would point and leave to move on. Still don't get it.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:06 pm

oldbeek wrote:This dog is not a robot. She can't wait to get her collar on. It has a tone setting and that is all I use to get her attention. Usually when she is ranging out at 300 yards to remind her if she ignores the whistle. At NSTRA trials several judges have commented to how happy she is. That tail never stops. When pointing several birds in a bush the point usually starts with a tail wagging point. I may have it figured out. Most of these broken points are in tumble weed patches, interspersed with open desert. The dried tumbleweeds are taller than her. These birds will not flush until stepped on. When asked to move into the patch to pin point them, she doesn't like it, but she will do it. Some of these patches are 30 X 60 ft and she will be pointing from the down wind side. Only had one GSP that would crash these kind of weed piles and be happy to do it. One Brittany that I had absolutely refused to venture into them. I think the mystery is solved. She would rather point singles in a single bush. Thanks for the replys. It helps to talk it out.

Aha. That may definitely explain it. Thanks.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:20 pm

oldbeek wrote:This dog is not a robot. She can't wait to get her collar on. It has a tone setting and that is all I use to get her attention. Usually when she is ranging out at 300 yards to remind her if she ignores the whistle. At NSTRA trials several judges have commented to how happy she is. That tail never stops. When pointing several birds in a bush the point usually starts with a tail wagging point. I may have it figured out. Most of these broken points are in tumble weed patches, interspersed with open desert. The dried tumbleweeds are taller than her. These birds will not flush until stepped on. When asked to move into the patch to pin point them, she doesn't like it, but she will do it. Some of these patches are 30 X 60 ft and she will be pointing from the down wind side. Only had one GSP that would crash these kind of weed piles and be happy to do it. One Brittany that I had absolutely refused to venture into them. I think the mystery is solved. She would rather point singles in a single bush. Thanks for the replys. It helps to talk it out.

That is commendable .
For reference what achievements have you in competition .

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:41 pm

polmaise wrote:
oldbeek wrote:This dog is not a robot. She can't wait to get her collar on. It has a tone setting and that is all I use to get her attention. Usually when she is ranging out at 300 yards to remind her if she ignores the whistle. At NSTRA trials several judges have commented to how happy she is. That tail never stops. When pointing several birds in a bush the point usually starts with a tail wagging point. I may have it figured out. Most of these broken points are in tumble weed patches, interspersed with open desert. The dried tumbleweeds are taller than her. These birds will not flush until stepped on. When asked to move into the patch to pin point them, she doesn't like it, but she will do it. Some of these patches are 30 X 60 ft and she will be pointing from the down wind side. Only had one GSP that would crash these kind of weed piles and be happy to do it. One Brittany that I had absolutely refused to venture into them. I think the mystery is solved. She would rather point singles in a single bush. Thanks for the replys. It helps to talk it out.
That is commendable .
For reference what achievements have you in competition .

Just started NSTRA last year. She was way to young. Got DQ ed a lot for busting birds. First trial this year at 24 months old she was 3rd out of 26 dogs with 5 finds and 4 retrieves. Would have been 5 and 5 if I could hit the bird.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:13 pm

Hope you finally hit on what was making the birds not fun.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:26 pm

Sharon,

If I didn't use the e-collar to reinforce staunch/steady I wouldn't need it.

Before the variable intensity collar we were jerking the dogs around so much before and after the flush many blinked birds as described. Some got so good at it if you were not watching closely you would not understand how they could hunt all day and go birdless.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:44 pm

Don't mistake tail wagging on point - flagging - for being happy. It is a sign of stress of some sort. Some dogs flag because they're uncertain, don't like the pressure, or they want to take the bird out but don't because they know better. If you are OK with things the way they are now, that's your call. But if it bugs you, IMO you need to back way up and figure out why the dog blinks and flags, and start again. IME once in a while these things more or less clear up as the dog matures IF the handler is aware of why it's going on in the first place, and relieves the pressure; but mostly the problems get worse as time goes by.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:39 pm

This is exactly right. There is something bugging this dog. " hey,get back here and point the bird" is not a command I would use. it seems like she has pointed a lot of birds since this post started. I do not see a good end to this unless you get to the issue. My guess is way to much training Before she was mentally ready..............Cj

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:53 pm

Neil wrote:Sharon,

If I didn't use the e-collar to reinforce staunch/steady I wouldn't need it.

Before the variable intensity collar we were jerking the dogs around so much before and after the flush many blinked birds as described. Some got so good at it if you were not watching closely you would not understand how they could hunt all day and go birdless.

Thanks. Appreciate your experience.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:00 pm

oldbeek wrote: Only had one GSP that would crash these kind of weed piles and be happy to do it. One Brittany that I had absolutely refused to venture into them. I think the mystery is solved. She would rather point singles in a single bush. Thanks for the replys. It helps to talk it out.

Well you sure are going through the dogs . I hope you get there

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:52 pm

polmaise wrote:
oldbeek wrote: Only had one GSP that would crash these kind of weed piles and be happy to do it. One Brittany that I had absolutely refused to venture into them. I think the mystery is solved. She would rather point singles in a single bush. Thanks for the replys. It helps to talk it out.
Well you sure are going through the dogs . I hope you get there

Got my first bird dog at 17. Only have had 5 dogs. Am 74 now.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:04 pm

oldbeek wrote:
polmaise wrote:
oldbeek wrote: Only had one GSP that would crash these kind of weed piles and be happy to do it. One Brittany that I had absolutely refused to venture into them. I think the mystery is solved. She would rather point singles in a single bush. Thanks for the replys. It helps to talk it out.
Well you sure are going through the dogs . I hope you get there
Got my first bird dog at 17. Only have had 5 dogs. Am 74 now.

Wish you well .
Reckon You would have solved most problems with them dogs by now

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:57 pm

Did it again today. But again gave me about 20 good points also and I can't shoot worth a dam. It is not tumble weed. She is going through them , no problem. Today she was on dirt with a scrub bush only 5 ft in diameter. I think it is the handler. These quail were skittish today. She locked on point and I was quite a way off. Getting near to her she started to move in a little and I said whoa in a low tone. That is when she broke point. After I kicked the bush and 2 birds went out she came back and pointed the bush so intensely that I thought there may be another bird in there. One other time she broke point I know for sure I also said whoa. On a good note, today I nocked one down about 30 yds away it dropped in a big tumbleweed pile. After that shot about 20 more birds came out all around the dog. She held her ground and watched them fly off. After they all left, I said Missy and she charged off directly to the downed bird for a perfect retrieve.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:15 pm

I'm hoping someone will tell me why dogs dont like to enter tumbleweed patches ? I've never seen tumbleweed and never expect to here in Scotland. Is it prickly ? Is it worse than brambles or gorse which dogs do enter ?

Bill T.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:31 pm

I.M.O. when a dog leaves a point it is likely that any one of three things has happened.
(1) The dog has mistakenly pointed on an old scent then has realised this and broke point to hunt on ......I want my dogs to do that.

(2) The bird or birds it was pointing have moved away from the point and the dog is trying to maintain the original scent levels it had going up it's nose by moving or creeping after them. ....... I want my dogs to do that too in most situations.

(3) The handler has been a bloody fool and has corrected the dog in the presence of game ...... I've done that once about 30 years ago and my dog blinked the next few head of game she found.... she pointed and then left the point. I don't want my dogs to do that so I don't correct a dog in the presence of game.

Bill T.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:24 pm

" I don't correct a dog in the presence of game." quote Trekmoor

But say your spaniel is moving around instead of sitting when you know there is game right there. You don't correct the dog ?

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:18 am

Sharon wrote:" I don't correct a dog in the presence of game." quote Trekmoor

But say your spaniel is moving around instead of sitting when you know there is game right there. You don't correct the dog ?

The spaniel better be moving - right in for the flush.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:23 am

That's right ! Spaniels should steam right in with all guns blazing !
I know it isn't usually done in America but over here we want our HPR's and pointers and setters to flush on command any game that is "right there." We then expect the dog to not chase. Along with most other folk here I find that easy to achieve. I don't train Whoa but I suppose a stop whistle is the same thing ?

Bill T.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:38 am

Mercy.

Exactly , he has to flush the bird first. Duhhhh.

Carolina Gundogs · Post by **Carolina Gundogs** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:34 pm

I had a dog very similar to this once. I just kept quiet and shot the birds that the dog pointed. I missed a lot as well but praised her up if I missed the bird.
She slowly got more and more confident on birds as she had good experiences.

birddown12 · Post by **birddown12** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:34 am

Trekmoor wrote:I'm hoping someone will tell me why dogs dont like to enter tumbleweed patches ? I've never seen tumbleweed and never expect to here in Scotland. Is it prickly ? Is it worse than brambles or gorse which dogs do enter ?

Bill T.

where i live... we hunt through lots of tumbleweeds. They are thick, hard to move in, and dogs... especially small dogs... get caught up in them. They are extremely tough to walk through, imagine being 2 foot off the ground and trying to shove your face into millions of tiny little sticks. I have a large weim now who hunts thru them for me... but his choice is to hang to the outside. 1 of my 2 shorthairs refused to work through them, so instead of cuss him all the time i just accepted it and hunted other areas. My weim has caught several wild birds in them just because they get caught up in them (that should tell you how thick they can become once they start to pile up.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:23 pm

Thanks, tumbleweed sounds like very nasty stuff.

Bill T.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:45 pm

Bill T, tumbleweed is more like a small bush that a weed.

Ezzy

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:59 pm

images.jpeg

He is holding the root. So it would normally lay flat. Can easily be 3 or 4 foot high. In the summer you can walk through them. As the summer goes on they get big and stickery. By hunting season they are dry and nasty.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:03 pm

Trekmoor wrote:Thanks, tumbleweed sounds like very nasty stuff.

Bill T.

Tumbleweed can become very mobile as wel and literally attack the unsuspecting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNVcSIZyBuE