ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

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Uplander
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ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Uplander » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:52 am

I have a 6 months old EP who is with me for a week now. for the past few days i have been introducing him to a partridge wing tied on a fishing line to teach whoa training but heck, he wont point at the "bleep" thing....runs in pursuit for 10 to 15 minutes but i dont let him catch the wing and thats it. He is however gun broke and i have seen him point butterflies in the field (straight tail and one front leg up in the air).
In the field he wont pay attention to partridges that have just flushed from 10 to 15 meters.
Previous owner told me that he is pointing wings,flies and any thing moving near him since he was 2 months old but after that he has mostly spent his time in the kennel where he was (neglected) i.e no longer trained with wings,birds or whatever means are used to train them.am i too late to train him?
what methods should i use to train him to point, this is my first dog. i intend to hunt quails and partridges with him.
PS: This fella has come from good blood lines and other puppies from the litter are working well in the field.

Any help will be highly appreciated!
Regards.

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getzapped
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Post by getzapped » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:50 am

Have you tried getting some live birds for him to chase? I am.pretty sure everyone is gonna tell you to ditch the wing on a string.

codym
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by codym » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:59 am

Uplander wrote:I have a 6 months old EP who is with me for a week now. for the past few days i have been introducing him to a partridge wing tied on a fishing line to teach whoa training but heck, he wont point at the "bleep" thing....runs in pursuit for 10 to 15 minutes but i dont let him catch the wing and thats it. He is however gun broke and i have seen him point butterflies in the field (straight tail and one front leg up in the air).
In the field he wont pay attention to partridges that have just flushed from 10 to 15 meters.
Previous owner told me that he is pointing wings,flies and any thing moving near him since he was 2 months old but after that he has mostly spent his time in the kennel where he was (neglected) i.e no longer trained with wings,birds or whatever means are used to train them.am i too late to train him?
what methods should i use to train him to point, this is my first dog. i intend to hunt quails and partridges with him.
PS: This fella has come from good blood lines and other puppies from the litter are working well in the field.

Any help will be highly appreciated!
Regards.

You really need to drop the wing game at this point. Do you have any hunting dog clubs or groups around ie a navhda, NSTRA, AKC, or anything alike. If not get some vides like perfect start perfect finish and the silent command system. At 6 months old all I expect a pup to do is come when called and hunt in front of me. You need a mentor to help you and birds, wild birds are best but pigeons will work as well.

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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Higgins » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:58 am

Hello Uplander,

Don't worry about young pups pointing. Pointing is part of a hunting strategy. Pups need exposure to birdy fields to build bird drive and to learn how to successfully get the bird in their mouth. I've found the best way to awaken the prey drive is to turn em' loose in a birdy place and get out of the way. Here is a video of a young pup learning about birds.

https://vimeo.com/56924329

Hope this helps.


Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs
___________________________
Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:00 am

Just like the other replies I think you should forget about the wing on a string. It is something to amuse myself with when I have a pup of about 8 -12 weeks and even then I only do it once or twice. A wing on a string is a Sight Point and you are wanting a scent point on birds the pup cannot see. Put the pup where it can find game and the rest is down to instinct and breeding plus a little bit of training just to smooth out the rough edges later on.

Bill T.
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Uplander
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Uplander » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:23 pm

@getzapped
Yeah, i have introduced him to pigeon, he was reluctant at the start , then tried to catch it and afterwards started barking on him from 2 feet as i was holding his chain.

@codym
I dont have any clubs around, he is doing great as far as obedience goes, walks in 10 to 15 meter radius and comes back when called.

@Higgins
so should i hunt over him as he is gun broke? i have fired approx 20 shells near him when he was in chase of a partridge wing....i started from approx 100 meters on 1st day and dropped to 50m as he didnt bother gun shots. in next couple of days i was shooting with him standing next to me. So can i say that the pup is gun broken and i should start hunting with him in the fields?
AND thanks for the excellent video link!

@Trekmoor
i got the general idea thank u for the help, i will get my hands on some quails tomorrow, should i plant them in grass and let the pup find them or leave them open as in the video posted by Higgins.

Uplander
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Uplander » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:51 pm

at what age my dog will be able to find game like a pro and hunt with me properly.....i know there are other variables to the equation that i have to work on but at what minimum age most of the gundogs (specially English) pointers start hunting at their best if trained properly ..
from all the above replies it seems that i am in a hurry as this is my first gundog :wink:

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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Mumpy » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Get on a training program and follow it. I recommend the Huntsmith Videos "The Silent Command" System but there are other great programs out there as well such as Perfect Start/Finish and Training with Mo. Doesn't matter which one you follow, each will give you a bird dog you're going to be proud of, but GET ON ONE of them and follow it.
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Sharon
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:59 pm

[quote="Uplander
Yeah, i have introduced him to pigeon, he was reluctant at the start , then tried to catch it and afterwards started barking on him from 2 feet as i was holding his chain.


.......................

Forget with the holding the chain. Plant some pigeons let him go, let him chase, let him get excited about birds. NOt pen raised quail, hard flying pigeons for that purpose.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:12 pm

Uplander , you might do better to pay more attention to the others on here than to me. I am experienced with various breeds of pointing dog but my training methods are not always those used by American trainers. Most of the time we do agree about some things however.....like not doing much at all with "wing on a string" and about letting pups be pups as they find their feet and their noses when hunting for birds.

Derry Argue , a well known British trainer of pointers and setters once said , "The best time to start to train a puppy is 63 days before it is born." He was saying that the breeding counts for at least as much as the training ..... I'm inclined to agree. Well bred pointer pups will just about train themselves hunting and pointing if you give them the birds to hunt and some time to grow up in.

Personally, I do not shoot game over young, untrained pups . I do not find it necessary to do that and if a pup has birds shot over it early , it will learn to run-in early and will then require the trainer to train it not to if running-in is undesirable to you.

I wait until a pup is steady to flush and steady to shot following the flush before I actually try to shoot the bird that has flushed. I break down the various aspects of hunting- pointing and retrieving into more easily managed bits then put it all together at the end to get the finished product.

American trainers do something similar but take other routes to get there.

Bill T.
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Sharon
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:46 pm

Uplander wrote:at what age my dog will be able to find game like a pro and hunt with me properly.....i know there are other variables to the equation that i have to work on but at what minimum age most of the gundogs (specially English) pointers start hunting at their best if trained properly ..
from all the above replies it seems that i am in a hurry as this is my first gundog :wink:
Depends on the dog but don't expect a lot until their second hunting season ... just based on my experience.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

Uplander
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Uplander » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:37 am

a little update here,
We have introduced quails (form raised which dont fly) and the dog is crazy about them.....we have been playing hide and seek using quails and the dog is doing exceptionally well, reaches them no matter if its open, thick cover or 2 feet tall crops....uses his nose both on the ground and in the air to reach birds. He also scent pointed the birds a couple of times today in thick covers but the point was no longer than 5 seconds. I hope soon he will start to learn to hold is point, advise any tips to hold point for longer periods.

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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Uplander » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:59 am

the dog is doing exceptionally well on quails. he finds the planted quail in 1 acre field with medium to light cover using his nose. i have not introduced him to the partridge yet. i was on partridge hunt yesterday and dog was with me. He didnt point a single partridge nor he was smelling the fields where we flushed a lot of coveys. He also showed zero interest in finding the crippled ones in medium to thick covers.
Main problem that i have seen is that dog only uses his nose when he knows that we are playing quail game with him (using planted quails). otherwise he just wanders around me like a home pet. Even yesterday he was just walking with me in the fields like a guard dog.What should i do so that he becomes crazy about partridges. should i keep training him on quails or i have to use planted partridges?
Regards.

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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:39 pm

Uplander, where are you located? I know you said there are no clubs in the area, but I highly doubt that. There are clubs all over across the country, and they are definitely worthwhile. My club is unique in the sense that it caters to retrievers, spaniels, and pointing dogs, which means are dogs become well rounded and are all especially good retrievers. We have a few members who drive long distances, nearly 2.5 hours in some cases to train with us, because that's how beneficial a club can be.

They can see what you're doing with your dog and help you read your dog, then give the appropriate advice. Also, someone mentioned getting on a program and following it... that's really good advice. If you don't know what you're doing, the dog won't either.
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by RoostersMom » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:19 am

You are not too late. I've taken foster dogs that are 5 years old, never seen a bird, that turn into great birddogs. I've followed the Perfect Start and Perfect Finish DVD's that have really helped me. More than that, I have attended a few of their 4-day clinics and worked with them on several rescue dogs. Consistent training and lots of great flying birds (pigeons) have really resulted in great dogs.

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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:18 pm

Uplander wrote:the dog is doing exceptionally well on quails. he finds the planted quail in 1 acre field with medium to light cover using his nose. i have not introduced him to the partridge yet. i was on partridge hunt yesterday and dog was with me. He didnt point a single partridge nor he was smelling the fields where we flushed a lot of coveys. He also showed zero interest in finding the crippled ones in medium to thick covers.
Main problem that i have seen is that dog only uses his nose when he knows that we are playing quail game with him (using planted quails). otherwise he just wanders around me like a home pet. Even yesterday he was just walking with me in the fields like a guard dog.What should i do so that he becomes crazy about partridges. should i keep training him on quails or i have to use planted partridges?
Regards.
I hope I don't offend you, but you aren't taking any of the above advice(s) given. Re read the advice(s) , get a programme suggested and follow it . What you are doing with hide/seek sight pointing quail is not in the plan. I don't believe you have harmed the dog , but you have wasted time . Just trying to get you on track.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

Uplander
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Uplander » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:58 am

mnaj_springer wrote:Uplander, where are you located? I know you said there are no clubs in the area, but I highly doubt that. There are clubs all over across the country, and they are definitely worthwhile. My club is unique in the sense that it caters to retrievers, spaniels, and pointing dogs, which means are dogs become well rounded and are all especially good retrievers. We have a few members who drive long distances, nearly 2.5 hours in some cases to train with us, because that's how beneficial a club can be.

They can see what you're doing with your dog and help you read your dog, then give the appropriate advice. Also, someone mentioned getting on a program and following it... that's really good advice. If you don't know what you're doing, the dog won't either.
I am in Pakistan, Hope that answers your doubt :lol:

Uplander
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Re: ENGLISH POINTER TRAINING HELP

Post by Uplander » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:00 am

Sharon wrote:
Uplander wrote:the dog is doing exceptionally well on quails. he finds the planted quail in 1 acre field with medium to light cover using his nose. i have not introduced him to the partridge yet. i was on partridge hunt yesterday and dog was with me. He didnt point a single partridge nor he was smelling the fields where we flushed a lot of coveys. He also showed zero interest in finding the crippled ones in medium to thick covers.
Main problem that i have seen is that dog only uses his nose when he knows that we are playing quail game with him (using planted quails). otherwise he just wanders around me like a home pet. Even yesterday he was just walking with me in the fields like a guard dog.What should i do so that he becomes crazy about partridges. should i keep training him on quails or i have to use planted partridges?
Regards.
I hope I don't offend you, but you aren't taking any of the above advice(s) given. Re read the advice(s) , get a programme suggested and follow it . What you are doing with hide/seek sight pointing quail is not in the plan. I don't believe you have harmed the dog , but you have wasted time . Just trying to get you on track.
No offense taken, i will ask a friend in US to bring one of the suggested programmes (dvd) whenever someone is coming back.

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