Pups Ecollar experience in the field

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BtheBrit
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Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by BtheBrit » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:51 pm

Hi Everyone,

My wife and I brought home our newest family member, a Brittany. Our Brittany (Beasley) is 6 months old and is a fantastic family member and has an excellent nose on her. Since this is our first puppy I was very eager to introduce her to as much as possible quickly as possible and she seemed to pick up on things rather quickly. I worked on her basic commands daily and was seeing pretty good results. I took her to a field by my house that holds pheasants on a regular basis as well as worked her on pigeons. I follow the George Hickox training program.
At the beginning of November I took her to a Game Farm and introduced her to pheasants. I had the game farm flag a couple hen pheasants and she did great at pointing the birds but overall she didn’t listen very well on this trip. It seemed like she was more eager to find birds than listen to me. This is an issue I figured I was going to run into since she was only 5 months old and she was not introduced to the ecollar yet. She is still allowed to chase birds as much as she wants. There were both positives and negatives that were taken from this hunt.
Like I stated above, I follow the George Hickox training program and introduced her to the ecollar a week ago (6 months old). It seemed like she picked up on the ecollar quickly. After a week of training I took her to a field (didn't see any birds) to see if I would see the same results and things looked promising. This past weekend, I took her to the game farm again and let her run wild with an ecollar on. She pointed the first couple of birds great and then took off running wild in search of birds. I followed the same protocol multiple times to bring her back and had to luck. At this point I had no Idea where she was and went into "panic mode" and kept trying to recall her but was having any luck. I don’t know if she was on point since I couldn’t see her but when I was trying to recall her with the ecollar, two pheasants got up and she went running after them. I know as a dog owner I need to have more faith in my dog that she will come back and that I need to continue working on the "here" command. Thankfully we were at the end of the hunt so didn’t have to stress anymore. Good news is she hasn't made the connection that the Ecollar is causing the shock because she gets very excited every time she sees the collar.
· What are the chances that a few shocks while she was on point (worse case scenario) will deter her from point pheasants in the future? She seems to be on the softer side.
· Should I stop the Ecollar training for a few weeks?
· Or Continue working on "Here/Ecollar" work in the yard and act like nothing happened?

Since this is the first dog I have had the opportunity to train on my own, My Brittany and I will be learning together.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks Everyone!

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Sharon
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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:49 pm

Welcome to the forum! :D


....................... I don’t know if she was on point since I couldn’t see her but when I was trying to recall her with the ecollar, two pheasants got up and she went running after them. I know as a dog owner I need to have more faith in my dog that she will come back and that I need to continue working on the "here" command. Thankfully we were at the end of the hunt so didn’t have to stress anymore. Good news is she hasn't made the connection that the Ecollar is causing the shock because she gets very excited every time she sees the collar.
· What are the chances that a few shocks while she was on point (worse case scenario) will deter her from point pheasants in the future? She seems to be on the softer side. Very possible , don't do it. Probably no damage has been done so far.

· Should I stop the Ecollar training for a few weeks? Do some more reading how to use an e collar effectively .
· Or Continue working on "Here/Ecollar" work in the yard and act like nothing happened? Yes .

Never use the e collar correction if you can't see the dog. Use the locator button if you are worried.

* edited many times because I was mucking around with the color :)
Last edited by Sharon on Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:59 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by shags » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:55 pm

I have to qualify my response by saying I have no idea how the Hickox system works. So there you are.

But...

As a rule NEVER hit a dog with the ecollar if you can't see what the dog is doing. There a few exceptions to this rule, but are not germaine to your current situation. Just don't do it.

If your dog is not responding to your recall command or the ecollar stimulation, you need to check your prongs and make sure they have good contact - the collar should be pretty snug. Or, if the collar is on correctly but she's blowing you off, you need to up the level. Don't nag the dog with stims it ignores. Jack it up a notch so she pays attention.

That being said, I cut my youngsters some slack about recalling in the midst of a chase. I let them finish chasing that one down before I call them back ( within reason, like I know they are in a safe area away from the road etc). You can see the dog peel off the bird when he loses it in flight or on the ground. That's when I recall. When the dog is older and has had more training I get stricter about it.

Sounds like you have a nice pup, and no serious damage done. Good luck with her, and have fun.

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:23 pm

Sorry ...typed a whole response and deleted it as I mixed up two posts. In my interactions with GH he is pretty direct about solidifying the incremental steps of dog training prior to moving on. He is especially specific ( grouchy ) regarding bird work. You may not have done any damage shocking a dog on point, but you will if you keep it up, and it is almost impossible to tell how and when it will show itself as a problem. At six months old, and a week into an e collar recall this pup is not ready for the pressure of birds and no check cord. Using the collar around birds on as young, fresh and inexperienced dog (and trainer) as this can get you into trouble.

I would work on recall without any birds in lots of different places for a bit longer, regardless of circumstances you should get compliance 8 out of 10 times before you go to e collar corrections. George and many trainers refer to this as generalizing. I cannot recall his tone in the training tapes, but he is rather critical of me in person about my letting dogs knock and chase Wild chukars up to a year or sixteen months old; he insists I make my job harder, and based on our experience level he is probably right. I would be very careful about hunting with any restrictions on this puppy. He needs very controlled drills right now with all your focus on training and not on hunting. Give this pup a year of your time training, be patient and you won't waste the more productive years of adulthood.

Respectfully,
JG

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Sharon
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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:43 pm

What an excellent post.

"my letting dogs knock and chase Wild chukars up to a year or sixteen months old...."

So glad to read that. I believe that is effective too if you have wild birds .
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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:27 am

Hi Sharon, have I misunderstood you or have I misunderstood this quote ...."cannot recall his tone in the training tapes, but he is rather critical of me in person about my letting dogs knock and chase Wild chukars up to a year or sixteen months old; he insists I make my job harder, and based on our experience level he is probably right. "

I took this to mean that the trainer was against allowing pups of this age continue to knock up and chase birds ?

Your post seemed to think he was in favour of it ? It's probably just me getting all mixed up but can you clear this up ?

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by BtheBrit » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:49 am

Thanks everyone for the great advice. I knew she wasn't going to be anywhere close to a finished dog but I was dying to see what she could do in the field (I need to be more patient and I know that now). I have a GPS tracking collar for my pup but unfortunately it decide to malfunction the day of the hunt and was not tracking her at all. I called the company and was experiencing the same issues when I was on the phone with them and they are thankfully replacing the GPS collar. Another reason I went into panic mode was that we were hunting right next to another group and I didn’t want my dog jumping their birds since birds are 20 dollars each.

I have a question for those who said do not shock your dog if you can’t see her: My Brittany will probably top out at 30-35 pounds (her mom was on the smaller side) and Brittany’s are a smaller hunting breed to begin with. You will run into fields where there is standing corn or the cover is super thick/tall and your dog gets swallowed up in it. I understand that the GPS tracking collar will help with this but what should individuals do that cannot afford a GPS tracking collar if you can’t see your dog? Possibly attach a bell to the dog’s collars?

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by Sharon » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:32 pm

".............cannot recall his(George's ) tone in the training tapes, but George is rather critical of me(Neil) in person about my(Neil) letting dogs knock and chase Wild chukars up to a year or sixteen months old; he( George) insists I make my(Neil) job harder, and based on our experience level he(George)) is probably right. "

I took it to mean Neil believes in letting dogs chase up to a year or 16 month's old..
I felt Neil was just being nice in saying "George is probably right.")

Neil will have to clarify I guess if he feels like it. ( Just got back from an afternoon of pheasant hunting and I'm TOO tired to care right now. :) )
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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:57 pm

BtheBrit wrote:Thanks everyone for the great advice. I knew she wasn't going to be anywhere close to a finished dog but I was dying to see what she could do in the field (I need to be more patient and I know that now). I have a GPS tracking collar for my pup but unfortunately it decide to malfunction the day of the hunt and was not tracking her at all. I called the company and was experiencing the same issues when I was on the phone with them and they are thankfully replacing the GPS collar. Another reason I went into panic mode was that we were hunting right next to another group and I didn’t want my dog jumping their birds since birds are 20 dollars each.

I have a question for those who said do not shock your dog if you can’t see her: My Brittany will probably top out at 30-35 pounds (her mom was on the smaller side) and Brittany’s are a smaller hunting breed to begin with. You will run into fields where there is standing corn or the cover is super thick/tall and your dog gets swallowed up in it. I understand that the GPS tracking collar will help with this but what should individuals do that cannot afford a GPS tracking collar if you can’t see your dog? Possibly attach a bell to the dog’s collars?
You search the area where you know she was in when you saw her last. And then when you find her treat her nice but take her home and don't put her in that situation again. There are times and places that dogs are not the answer.
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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by oldbeek » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:00 pm

I run a bell on my dog. I also have a tone button on my collar. Sometimes she is out of range for my poor hearing. That is when I use the tone button, but not often and never the shock. Sounds like your pup needs a lot of check cord training.

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by Sharon » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:07 pm

No GPS units allowed on dogs in ON.I use the Dogtra 2500 B/T - has a very loud beeper mode when needed. Can hear it for quite a distance.
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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:21 am

Sharon wrote:No GPS units allowed on dogs in ON.I use the Dogtra 2500 B/T - has a very loud beeper mode when needed. Can hear it for quite a distance.
True, but the OP is from Minnesota where GPS units are totally legal. So, BtheBrit, if you're looking into a beeper collar, you'll be spending anywhere from $200 to $400 dollars. I suggest you just save a little more and buy an Astro. I did and I love it. The peace of mind that it gives me is priceless (truly). Plus, based on where you live, I assume you'll do at least a little hunting on wild pheasant which are gone at the slightest sound after a few weeks of being hunted, so a bell and/or beeper would only frustrate you more as you watch roosters flush hundreds of yards out.
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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by ruffbritt4 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:56 am

BtheBrit,
Sounds like a normal puppy. They get excited and lose their head. Don't let this discourage you it happens with every dog. My youngest dog was 8 months old at the start of this season and she would go off on a nice run through the woods, probably after finding birds, because I saw her a few times when she was within range and she'd take off and chase the bird. That's fine, I was forgiving as she's a pup. One thing that would be great is if you got a GPS collar if you are able to. It allows you peace of mind when your dog isn't in sight. Continue to work on obedience in the yard. Good luck

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by bobman » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:24 am

Sharon wrote:No GPS units allowed on dogs in ON.I use the Dogtra 2500 B/T - has a very loud beeper mode when needed. Can hear it for quite a distance.

I read recently on UJ that the Sport dog Tek has a version for Canada ...you might want to investigate that
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by bobman » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:28 am

If you cant handle a dog being out of sight without shocking it you need to get rid of that ecollar before you turn her into a blinking mess

Sportdog make some less expensive GPS collars.

I now run an alpha so I know where they are but I do it in case they get hurt not because I cant see them.

Sooner or later they turn up if I head in their last known direction, haven't lost one yet in 50 years of running pointers. Running pointing dogs is a leap of faith sometimes.
currently two shorthairs, four english pointers, one Brittany, one SPRINGER a chihuahua and a min pin lol

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:23 am

First things have to come first. You are most definitely rushing things and that ain't good.

The dog has got to bond with you and learn to work with you...the way you want. That takes time and shoeleather and plenty of walks in birdless fields. Walk with the dog, then change direction. The dog will change direction also and if it does not, a verbal or whistle signal should alert it to the change. Work on that and it will pay HUGE dividends.

The dog has to have a VERY solid recall, whether it be voice or whistle or tone on the collar, but it has to be virtually 100% in the yard and in the 90 percentile in birdless fields if you have any hope at all of recalling it in a situation where it smells game.

YOU have to develop some patience and even more difficult, you are going to have to learn to trust the dog. Patience is a virtue that I personally do not have enough of and trusting a dog when it is out of sight has always been hard for me...but it that uneasy feeling in the pit of your stomach is something you are going to have to deal with if you bird hunt over a dog...because a good dog is going to reach out there and do what it has to do to find birds. Oh yeah, the dog has also to learn to trust YOU, as strange as that may sound.

I will tell you this to hopefully ease your mind a bit. I have been chasing big running pointers for over fifty years. I started hunting long before there were beepers, trackers, e-collars, garmins or any of that stuff. I never lost a dog permanently in all of that time and the dogs I hunted behind were BIG running dogs that would hunt out of sight much more than they would be within sight. A few got off on deer and a couple were gone...but they were laying there on my jacket the next morning. One got stolen right before hunting season and showed up at our door two days later. His pads were nearly worn down and he slept for two days. This dog was in shape to hunt all day when he got snatched, so Lord knows how far he had come...but he came back, right to the house.

If the dog likes you, it will hunt with you and for you and it will come back for you. If it does not like you, I don't care what kind of telemetry or shock collar you have...the dog will find a way to get gone.

You have a Brittany. They are, as a breed, much more dialed in to hunting with and for the hunter than the lunatic pointers I hunt with. Make friends with the dog, take the time to show it what you want it to do and build that two way bond and two way trust.

Keep your cotton pickin' finger off the button. Never use the e-collar for discipline unless you know EXACTLY what the dog is doing.

I know it is hard not to just press the button...but don't do it. Trust the dog. I can't tell you how many times, I have been walking or riding at a field trial getting concerned because the dog was gone too long and just about when I was going to ask for the tracker...THERE IT WAS,out front, doing what it was supposed to be doing, right where it should be.

Always remember these few things....

The dog is the hunter...we are along to kill what they find. They are the ones with the nose and the genetics to be successful at hunting.

The dog has MUCH keener senses than we do. We may not see or hear or smell them, but, rest assured, they know where we are, at far greater ranges than you can imagine.

Time and shoeleather. There ain't no shortcut.

RayG

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by Neil » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:51 am

Sharon wrote:".............cannot recall his(George's ) tone in the training tapes, but George is rather critical of me(Neil) in person about my(Neil) letting dogs knock and chase Wild chukars up to a year or sixteen months old; he( George) insists I make my(Neil) job harder, and based on our experience level he(George)) is probably right. "

I took it to mean Neil believes in letting dogs chase up to a year or 16 month's old..
I felt Neil was just being nice in saying "George is probably right.")

Neil will have to clarify I guess if he feels like it. ( Just got back from an afternoon of pheasant hunting and I'm TOO tired to care right now. :) )
That was Joe, not me. But I, too, let puppies chase and shot everything that flies. And also agree with George that it probably makes my job harder. But I know it fosters the desire and ability to find wild birds. Were I training a bunch of dogs for the public I wouldn't/couldn't do it, but with only 2 or 3 dogs in basic training at any one time, I don't look for easy. I am training for the next 10 - 12 years.

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by deseeker » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:00 am

RayGubernat wrote:First things have to come first. You are most definitely rushing things and that ain't good.

The dog has got to bond with you and learn to work with you...the way you want. That takes time and shoeleather and plenty of walks in birdless fields. Walk with the dog, then change direction. The dog will change direction also and if it does not, a verbal or whistle signal should alert it to the change. Work on that and it will pay HUGE dividends.

The dog has to have a VERY solid recall, whether it be voice or whistle or tone on the collar, but it has to be virtually 100% in the yard and in the 90 percentile in birdless fields if you have any hope at all of recalling it in a situation where it smells game.

YOU have to develop some patience and even more difficult, you are going to have to learn to trust the dog. Patience is a virtue that I personally do not have enough of and trusting a dog when it is out of sight has always been hard for me...but it that uneasy feeling in the pit of your stomach is something you are going to have to deal with if you bird hunt over a dog...because a good dog is going to reach out there and do what it has to do to find birds. Oh yeah, the dog has also to learn to trust YOU, as strange as that may sound.

I will tell you this to hopefully ease your mind a bit. I have been chasing big running pointers for over fifty years. I started hunting long before there were beepers, trackers, e-collars, garmins or any of that stuff. I never lost a dog permanently in all of that time and the dogs I hunted behind were BIG running dogs that would hunt out of sight much more than they would be within sight. A few got off on deer and a couple were gone...but they were laying there on my jacket the next morning. One got stolen right before hunting season and showed up at our door two days later. His pads were nearly worn down and he slept for two days. This dog was in shape to hunt all day when he got snatched, so Lord knows how far he had come...but he came back, right to the house.

If the dog likes you, it will hunt with you and for you and it will come back for you. If it does not like you, I don't care what kind of telemetry or shock collar you have...the dog will find a way to get gone.

You have a Brittany. They are, as a breed, much more dialed in to hunting with and for the hunter than the lunatic pointers I hunt with. Make friends with the dog, take the time to show it what you want it to do and build that two way bond and two way trust.

Keep your cotton pickin' finger off the button. Never use the e-collar for discipline unless you know EXACTLY what the dog is doing.

I know it is hard not to just press the button...but don't do it. Trust the dog. I can't tell you how many times, I have been walking or riding at a field trial getting concerned because the dog was gone too long and just about when I was going to ask for the tracker...THERE IT WAS,out front, doing what it was supposed to be doing, right where it should be.

Always remember these few things....

The dog is the hunter...we are along to kill what they find. They are the ones with the nose and the genetics to be successful at hunting.

The dog has MUCH keener senses than we do. We may not see or hear or smell them, but, rest assured, they know where we are, at far greater ranges than you can imagine.

Time and shoeleather. There ain't no shortcut.

RayG
Excellent post :D

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Re: Pups Ecollar experience in the field

Post by Sharon » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:26 pm

Wow. Absolutely. Still waiting on that book Ray :)
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