E-collar, yes or no?

NJWilliamson · Post by **NJWilliamson** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:13 pm

I am just curious what everyone's philosophy on the use of an E-collar is. I have never used an e-collar with any of my dogs although I have never trained a bird dog either. Is it is something you use? Do you use it all the time or just in the field? Any thoughts on e-collars are greatly appreciated.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:18 pm

When I started with hunting /dogs with Dad in the 50s, there were no e collars. We trained effectively ( beagles) , but unacceptable methods were often used. We occasionally lost a dog for good too .

Now with the locator feature on the e collar it is rare to lose a dog.
The e collar is simply an extension of the check cord- another tool that needs to be used wisely. I use it for training( setters) and rarely in the field when hunting.
It is also very useful in keeping the Jack Russell from barking at everything that moves.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:25 pm

ecollars should only be used when you are trained to use one. Don't use one unless you are willing to try it out on your own neck at the level you intend to use on your dog.

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:39 pm

When used properly the ecollar can be your best friend. If used in the wrong manner (which is all too common) it can really mess up a dog. Educate yourself on the proper use of an ecollar and train your dog to know the commands before the ecollar is used.it is very important to understand that they are for enforcing known commands and not teaching new ones.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:51 pm

Having read your thread on your 9 week old Brittany, I would be very reluctant to advise using an e-collar in your case. Not trying to sound mean, but you need to learn the very most basic training approaches first, before you even think about using an e-collar.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=50312&p=466078#p466078

Put your time and money into good books and/or working with respected obedience and hunt training organizations, or find a mentor. As others have said, an e-collar can either be a great tool, or a good way to ruin a dog.

Bill

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:52 pm

I had a dog that was very independent and would not check in when called.. There were times that I did not know where she was and I would get very frustrated. It would ruin my hunting trips. I got an e -collar, learned how to use it and would never be without one again. My present dog loves her collar. She knows when the collar goes on the fun begins. I mainly use the tone button sparingly to ask the dog to check back in.

Hoosierdaddy · Post by **Hoosierdaddy** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:03 pm

I think the e-collar is a wonderful tool,however i have personally seen too many idiots use them improperly.I have gotten back into hunting the last few years and have witnessed fist hand why lots of folks dont like the idea of an electronic collar.An e-collar in the wrong hands is cruel,in the hands of someone who has read about proper use it can be a great training tool.
I am an old school guy and just purchased my first e-collar about 3 years ago,i read a couple training books before i ever strapped one on my dogs.I have always used as little "stim" as was needed and i have two pretty well behaved Brits to show for it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:51 pm

The E-collar is the Cadillac of training tools. Used correctly it is the gentlest most humane tool we have that gives you somw form of control of your dog in a very big area. Dogs can be and have been trained without one for years but it has made more difference in training methods and have enhanced the results more than you can imagine. You do need to learn the concept of using it correctly but it also is not as hazardous as most make it sound. You and your dog will live longer due to a lot less stress on both.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:01 pm

An ecollar is the greatest safety device ever invented for the dog owner. It is also the fastest, most humane, and most precise training tool ever invented for dog training.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:27 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:An ecollar is the greatest safety device ever invented for the dog owner. It is also the fastest, most humane, and most precise training tool ever invented for dog training.

Not when used improperly.

Bill

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:42 pm

Spy Car wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:An ecollar is the greatest safety device ever invented for the dog owner. It is also the fastest, most humane, and most precise training tool ever invented for dog training.
Not when used improperly.

Bill

There's a revelation. The same can be said for any piece of training equipment or any training program.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:04 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:An ecollar is the greatest safety device ever invented for the dog owner. It is also the fastest, most humane, and most precise training tool ever invented for dog training.
Not when used improperly.

Bill
There's a revelation. The same can be said for any piece of training equipment or any training program.

And if you read the OPs previous thread you'd realize that the prerequisite knowledge of dogs and dog training is too lacking in this case to recommend a tool that is as prone to mis-use as an e-collar.

Bill

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:32 pm

With the advent of the variable intensity collar and the great information on it's use, like the Perfect Start system and Evan Graham's series, anyone with common sense can train with an ecollar. In fact, I believe it's easier to finish a dog with an ecollar than by any other method. It is also less stressful for both owner and dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:14 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:With the advent of the variable intensity collar and the great information on it's use, like the Perfect Start system and Evan Graham's series, anyone with common sense can train with an ecollar. In fact, I believe it's easier to finish a dog with an ecollar than by any other method. It is also less stressful for both owner and dog.

Amen, no doubt about it. There is not a single individual that has used a collar that wasn't completely inexperienced the first time they used it. And this doesn't mean you should try it with no knowledge about how it works but there is not a unit sold that doesn't come with complete instructions plus some with videos.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:17 pm

I am just curious what everyone's philosophy on the use of an E-collar is. I have never used an e-collar with any of my dogs although I have never trained a bird dog either. Is it is something you use? Do you use it all the time or just in the field? Any thoughts on e-collars are greatly appreciated.

My philosophy in using an e-collar is it is nothing more that an extended Check Cord and it should be used in that manner. Due to the nature of Pointing Dogs working at long distances I put it on when ever we go to the field and many times even in the backyard. We have found through trial and error that the timing of a correction as well as a reminder that I am speaking to the dog is probably the most important part of dog training. If you combine timing with long distances then I think you will see the value of the collar. In all honesty it is the most valuable tool we have that works better and is much gentler and more humane than anything we have had to use in the past. As far as use of it, I seldom ever use it in the field but I train in the yard with it and because of that it is rarely necessary to use but is there in case of emergencies which occasionally do pop up. I do think you can break the use of the collar into two general fields. The first one is control while training or field working which is seldom used once the dog is trained and number two is avoidance training which is also not often but can be a setup in the yard like snake breaking but can also be in the field such as deer or porky avoidance. And my number one caution is you never use it when your dog is not in sight and actively engaged in an act that you need to control or change.

Number one greatest training tool ever developed,

Ezzy

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:35 pm

The question is not whether a person has previous exposure to an e-collar (or not) it is whether said individual has the first clue about how to train a dog.

Lacking that fundamentally knowledge makes the use of an e-collar a risky proposition.

While e-collars have their place, they have a downside of having limited the transition to more positive methods that now prevail in other canine sports. The hunting community is 40-50 year behind the times in the over reliance on punitive punishment and the infliction of pain as a primary means of training. That some folks believe it is the most humane way to train is evidence they have no clue how to train positively. That some gun dogs were trained in the past (and present) using even more abusive means, does not make the use of e-collars the pinnacle of humane training. You guys have that wrong.

E-collars have their upsides, and in the hands of a competent person can help give results only those more expert in dog training were (and are still) able to achieve without their use. But they can be mis-used, and there has been a lack of progress in retarding the wider use of positive training methods associated with their use. Mixed blessing in that regard.

I would be very fearful of the OP using an e-collar. Much better they find a mentor or group to help them with the basics.

Bill

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:55 pm

Sharon wrote:Poor guy. he makes 5 posts - all very polite and asking for help and he's told he's too inexperienced to ask these questions. Sad.

He's being offered help. He should find resources (here included) for how to sucessfully raise a puppy.

Being overwhelmed with the energy of a 9 week old puppy, and being frustrated it is not listening to fetch commands and isn't leash trained, show a level of inexperience that makes the addition on an e-collar into the equation a very bad idea. My mind reels at the thought.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:02 am

Spy Car wrote:
Sharon wrote:Poor guy. he makes 5 posts - all very polite and asking for help and he's told he's too inexperienced to ask these questions. Sad.
He's being offered help. He should find resources (here included) for how to sucessfully raise a puppy.

Being overwhelmed with the energy of a 9 week old puppy, and being frustrated it is not listening to fetch commands and isn't leash trained, show a level of inexperience that makes the addition on an e-collar into the equation a very bad idea. My mind reels at the thought.

Bill

Bill, so glad you are here to teach all of us all about dog feeding, training, housing, and breeding. You make me wonder where we all went so wrong. Why can't we be like you and have an opinion on everything and those opinions are always right to where you can just state them as proven facts.

Ezzy

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:10 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
Sharon wrote:Poor guy. he makes 5 posts - all very polite and asking for help and he's told he's too inexperienced to ask these questions. Sad.
He's being offered help. He should find resources (here included) for how to sucessfully raise a puppy.

Being overwhelmed with the energy of a 9 week old puppy, and being frustrated it is not listening to fetch commands and isn't leash trained, show a level of inexperience that makes the addition on an e-collar into the equation a very bad idea. My mind reels at the thought.

Bill

Bill, so glad you are here to teach all of us all about dog feeding, training, housing, and breeding. You make me wonder where we all went so wrong. Why can't we be like you and have an opinion on everything and those opinions are always right to where you can just state them as proven facts.

Ezzy

Says the forums biggest know-it-all. Gets tiresome Ezzy.

Bill

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:18 am

I have owned an e-collar for years but sometimes years go by during which it is not used as my collar is used only to put a stop to dogs chasing sheep. I originally joined this forum with the idea of learning how to properly use an e-collar and I think I have enough knowledge to use one now .....but I am too wary of making a mistake to use it for routine training.

If I lived in America and if I was the O.P. I'd go to a really good trainer of my chosen breed and then ask him/her for instructions on e- collar use. I.M.O. there is no doubt that a few 1-2-1 lessons from a competent instructor is the best way to learn correct e-collar use. I cannot get that in Britain .....there are no e-collar instructors here ......none that are brave enough to advertise anyway !

Anyway, my advice to the O.P. is to find a good instructor and have face to face lessons.

I've got a question about e-collars......... would it be obvious to an experienced observer that a dog had been trained using an e-collar ?

Bill T.

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:16 am

Trekmoor wrote:...Anyway, my advice to the O.P. is to find a good instructor and have face to face lessons.

I've got a question about e-collars......... would it be obvious to an experienced observer that a dog had been trained using an e-collar ?

Bill T.

Bill, with retrievers, it would be more obvious to the experienced observer that a dog had not been trained using an e-collar because of how poorly the dog does it work - if it even does its work in the first place (running blind retrieves, picking multiple marks, even swimming any kind of distance for a retrieve).

Ezzy, calling the e-collar the Cadillac of training tools gives way too much inclusion to the likes of "Yugo's" SportDog and Innotec. A dependable collar would be the Swiss watch/Army Knife of training tools, in any event.

Bill, almost any pro trainer of any gundog discipline who a newcomer seeks out would be an adherent of e-collar use and would advise same.

MG

NEhomer · Post by **NEhomer** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:26 am

I honestly don't see what's so complicated about it.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:27 am

I've got a question about e-collars......... would it be obvious to an experienced observer that a dog had been trained using an e-collar

Yes, *if* the collar was misused. If the collar is/has been used correctly, the dog goes about his business in a happy, confident manner.

OP, the ecollar can be a safe, effecient, and effective training aid. But it isn't a magic wand for fixing every perceived behavioral issue. It is generally used to reinforce behavior that has already been trained. There are a few instances where it's used to instill a behavior, but I don't think that's very mainstream. At any rate, the collar is used as sort of a backup or really long checkcord; it enables you to give a hands-off correction; it provides you with a way to make an very timely correction.

Generally speaking, until a dog is finished, a collar is used for one command or lesson at a time. For example, if he's been a little willful about responding to a recall command, you might use the collar to work on just that. You wouldn't strap the collar on and use it for the recall, and then to turn the dog, and then to whoa the dog, and then have the dog heel. It would be a terrible idea to use a collar that way. I've seen the results and it was terrible for the dog.

So, if you are planning ahead for future field training, you ought to start researching and reading various threads on here about specific issues to get an idea of how it works.

But if you are thinking that you can put an ecollar on your pup and zap him into becoming your perfect companion - like housebreaking mistake, Zap! Chewing a shoe, ZAP! Pulling on your pantsleg, ZAP! Whining and crying in the crate, ZAP! - Pulling on the lead, ZAP! - absolutely the worst idea in the world. I wouldn't wven think of imtroducing an ecollar until the pup is five or six months old, and then only for very specific issues.

Big bloc · Post by **Big bloc** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:10 am

25 years ago I had a dog training tell me that the dog was the easy part of training. It was me that had to trained. Now I look back and can see that. It does not train only enforce a know command. I hunted with a guy a while back was so mad at him because all he did was holler and push the button. He had no clue what he was doing. Train yourself first

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:51 am

"He's being offered help. He should find resources (here included) for how to sucessfully raise a puppy.

Being overwhelmed with the energy of a 9 week old puppy, and being frustrated it is not listening to fetch commands and isn't leash trained, show a level of inexperience that makes the addition on an e-collar into the equation a very bad idea. My mind reels at the thought.

Bill[/quote]
Bill, so glad you are here to teach all of us all about dog feeding, training, housing, and breeding. You make me wonder where we all went so wrong. Why can't we be like you and have an opinion on everything and those opinions are always right to where you can just state them as proven facts.

Ezzy[/quote]

Says the forums biggest know-it-all. Gets tiresome Ezzy.

Bill[/quote]

Bill in my opinion there is a big difference between a "know it all" and a "have done it all". Most of the folks that frequent this forum, myself included hope and appreciate it when the "have done it all's" weigh in with good ideas and practical knowledge. I think the biggest difference between the two is the "have done it all's" are still willing and able to learn,they don't make things overly complicated so they can stroke their own ego, they have years of experience to back up their claims, they don't post on every single thread 25 time a day and make it about themselves because they are out hunting and working their dogs and they seem to steer clear of any post that you get involved. Ray, Chukar, Ezzy, Doug etc. I think we know what camp they are in. Bill where do you see yourself?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:06 am

Spycar, the man has asked for help with his pup. What DVD to buy, what Book to buy and now he has asked, not said, what opinions are about the ecollar. That's it. He seems to be doing his homework. Many books and DVD's explain very thoroughly that a dog MUST be trained WITHOUT an ecollar before one is used to reinforce the acquired training. The ecollar is a progression like the cc is, introduction of birds is, the choke collar, the spike collar, etc. It's simply a progression and the person is gathering information to apply to his decision of a training regimen. He may decide to never use an ecollar. I applaud him.

Today, I consider it irresponsible of a dog owner, especially a pointing dog owner, to NOT use an ecollar on his dog. But that is simply one person's opinion and opinions are what he is asking for. IF you use an ecollar on a low intensity, it is almost impossible to hurt a dog irreversibly unless you are a clueless idiot. The option of instant variable intensity has dramatically changed the face of electric collar training.

BigTub · Post by **BigTub** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:17 am

DeLo727 · Post by **DeLo727** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:40 am

I have used one becomes it gives me a sense of security. I know that in an emergency, I can stop my dog if I need to at a distance. I.E. a road, chasing a deer etc. However, even using it for this reason they need to be conditioned properly. You don't just turn it up and fry the dog

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:13 pm

NJWilliamson wrote:I am just curious what everyone's philosophy on the use of an E-collar is. I have never used an e-collar with any of my dogs although I have never trained a bird dog either. Is it is something you use? Do you use it all the time or just in the field? Any thoughts on e-collars are greatly appreciated.

I view the e-collar as a long range checkcord and a safety net. All of my dogs wear it in the field.

Unless the dog is competing in a field trial, where e-collars are not permitted, the dog is wearing one when it is in the field. I may not need it at all, but if I do...it is on the dog.

I do not use an e-collar for initial traiing in obedience or yardwork, but I do overlay the e-collar after the dog has shown understanding of the verbal or visual obedience command and a certain level of proficiency. This allows me to cue and to correct the dog in the field without verbalization, whistles and such.

The way to training a dog quickly, thoroughly, and with minimal pressure is to introduce concepts and guide the dog to perform the task in the required manner. The key in this process is TIMING. If you can issue the cue or correction at the instant it is needed, the dog will need fewer and fewer repetitions and corrections, resulting in a dog that is happy, confident and responsive, with a minimum of pressure.

The e-collar allows anybody with a functional thumb to approach that instantaneous, perfect timing.

It does not, in my view, take the place of hands on training, but it extends those lessons and the ability to influence the dog at the exact right time, to ranges well beyond arm's length.

RayG

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:28 pm

NJWilliamson wrote:I am just curious what everyone's philosophy on the use of an E-collar is. I have never used an e-collar with any of my dogs although I have never trained a bird dog either. Is it is something you use? Do you use it all the time or just in the field? Any thoughts on e-collars are greatly appreciated.

I would advise that the understanding of direct and In-direct pressure is understood before the understanding of what a tool is used for and before one either uses it or asks some one who has or has not. When this understanding is reached it may or may not have an answer. lol

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:34 pm

An e-collar is an excellent tool but it is just that - a tool. I think it does speed the process of polishing the dog as your timing for corrections are way better than humanly possible by other methods. But it is still just a tool - the same way a leash or choke/prong collar, or check cord is. It won't substitute poor training. Your pup is only 9 weeks though so you have lots of time to research and learn. I wouldn't use one before 6 months old at the very earliest. The dog should be pretty solid in its training before you introduce it. It doesn't teach new behaviors, only reinforces what you've already trained and can be used for more finesse or polish.

NJWilliamson · Post by **NJWilliamson** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:46 pm

Guys thank you for all the great advice! I do realize that I am very inexperienced and that is why I am thankful for this forum and the great advice you all give. One thing is for sure, I love my dog very much and I want to do what I can to create the greatest bond possible between us. I don't want to do anything to ever hurt him. To be honest I would rather have a dog that loves me and feels safe and is a lousy hunter than a great hunter who is fearful of me. However, if possible I want a dog who both loves me and is a great hunter. It really seems like I need to find a mentor or a trainer and invest myself learning how to train. I really loved one quote I read which was a response in this thread, "It is not the dog that needs to be trained but you." That is really how I feel and I can't wait to keep learning.

Does anyone have any advice on the best way to find a good trainer/mentor?

Thanks again!

- Nolan

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:52 pm

I don't see a location in your avatar Nolan. Folks would need to know that first before a mentor could be recommended.

NJWilliamson · Post by **NJWilliamson** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:54 pm

Sharon wrote:I don't see a location in your avatar Nolan. Folks would need to know that first before a mentor could be recommended.

Thanks for point that out Sharon. It should be on there now. I am in Winter Springs, FL, a suburb of Orlando, Fl.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:07 pm

NJWilliamson wrote:Guys thank you for all the great advice! I do realize that I am very inexperienced and that is why I am thankful for this forum and the great advice you all give. One thing is for sure, I love my dog very much and I want to do what I can to create the greatest bond possible between us. I don't want to do anything to ever hurt him. To be honest I would rather have a dog that loves me and feels safe and is a lousy hunter than a great hunter who is fearful of me. However, if possible I want a dog who both loves me and is a great hunter. It really seems like I need to find a mentor or a trainer and invest myself learning how to train. I really loved one quote I read which was a response in this thread, "It is not the dog that needs to be trained but you." That is really how I feel and I can't wait to keep learning.

Does anyone have any advice on the best way to find a good trainer/mentor?

Thanks again!

- Nolan

I'm sure there are loads that can tell you what you want to hear. No matter where you are.
Hmmm? why use the word 'fearful' ? where does that come from?

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:08 pm

OP,
Start your search for a mentor by calling the breeder of your pup. Even if your dog has been 'imported' from another state, your breeder may have contacts for you. You can also go to the AKC website and search for a local Brittany club, and contact the club secretary, who will surely have a number of names for you. Or do an events search for pointing dog field trials in Florida, check out the past events, and use the contact numbers/emails on the premium list. Some clubs have training days which would be great for you. IME it helps to make casual contact with two or three folks and spend a little time asking questions. Not all trainers have the same depth of knowlege, and some have better gifts of gab than training expertise.
Good luck in your search

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:17 pm

NJWilliamson wrote:Guys thank you for all the great advice! I do realize that I am very inexperienced and that is why I am thankful for this forum and the great advice you all give. One thing is for sure, I love my dog very much and I want to do what I can to create the greatest bond possible between us. I don't want to do anything to ever hurt him. To be honest I would rather have a dog that loves me and feels safe and is a lousy hunter than a great hunter who is fearful of me. However, if possible I want a dog who both loves me and is a great hunter. It really seems like I need to find a mentor or a trainer and invest myself learning how to train. I really loved one quote I read which was a response in this thread, "It is not the dog that needs to be trained but you." That is really how I feel and I can't wait to keep learning.

Does anyone have any advice on the best way to find a good trainer/mentor?

Thanks again!

- Nolan

Nope.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:08 pm

polmaise wrote:
NJWilliamson wrote: Does anyone have any advice on the best way to find a good trainer/mentor?

Thanks again!

- Nolan
Nope.

Actually the answer is yes. Look up your local NAVHDA chapter.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:10 pm

I've personally never seen a fearful dog that's a great hunter.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:02 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:
polmaise wrote:
NJWilliamson wrote: Does anyone have any advice on the best way to find a good trainer/mentor?

Thanks again!

- Nolan
Nope.
Actually the answer is yes. Look up your local NAVHDA chapter.

Depends on the dog you have and your goals.