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cjhills
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debolt

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:23 am

Can somebody explain Debolt. I guess I know what it means. but I do not know how you do it and why...................Cj

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Re: debolt

Post by shags » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:46 am

I believe GoneHuntin has a method he uses. i was hoping he would post it.

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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:56 pm

De-bolting a dog is something that should be done to every well trained dog. Quite simply, it means that you take every safe haven away from a dog and make the place by your side the only safe place for the dog. Here's how it's done.

Start the dog on a leash and collar. When walking him into the house, open the door and let him go in then command HERE sharply and give him a series of short, sharp tugs to make him come to you. Do this until he comes reliably out of the house 100% of the time. Now do the same thing in his dog house. Tell him to kennel and once he is in his kennel or house, sharply command HERE and guide him out with a series of sharp tugs. Now do the same thing with your truck or car. Let him jump in or enter on the KENNEL command, then command HERE and give the series of sharp tugs to get him out. This series of sharp tugs is important because it will make transition to nicks with an ecollar easier. Now have people call him, let him go to them on lead, then command HERE while they try to coax him to stay again using a series of short, sharp tugs. By now, on leash, he should come to you at any time, no matter the distraction.

Now we switch it off leash. This a little trickier and it's going to make it a heck of a lot easier if the dog has ALL READY been broken to the ecollar. If the dog has not, use a low power BB pistol, marble, or a paint ball gun but an ecollar is the safest and easiest. Start in a fenced in yard, perferebly a small one where the dog has no escape, no distraction and no where to go. When he is at one end of the yard command HERE sharply and nick him. Keep commanding HERE and nicking him, slowly raising the intensity until he comes to your side. You can tell him "good dog" but don't talk baby talk to him and baby him. This is a force drill and it doesn't matter if the dog is happy about it or not. Now sit or whoa the dog, walk away, command HERE, nick him and continue commanding HERE and nicking him until he comes to your side. Do this until he's 100%. He may get to the point that when you command SIT or WHOA he won't, he'll stay with you because he knows what's coming. That's OK, he's now beginning to understand. If he cowers in a corner and won't come, keep commanding HERE, nicking him and raising the intensity until he does come. If you have done a good job on the leash or CC and he is well collar conditioned, this doesn't happen much and if it does, he only tries it once.

OK, now he's 100% off lead in the yard so we proceed to the same proceedure we used on leash. Let him walk into the house, command HERE, and nick him. Same with the car, kennel, and dog house or crate. Be careful of this with people because the dog under high stimulation may think it's the person and bite them so most amateurs should skip this step. Tempt him anyway and with anything you can but when you command HERE, he should stop doing whatever he's doing, spin, and come running back to you. He is now de-bolted. This sounds complicated but in reality is a three day process though with a well trained dog, training or reinforcement continues throughout the dog's life.

The end result is that the dog learns that there is no SAFE PLACE BUT AT YOUR SIDE.
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Re: debolt

Post by shags » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:57 pm

Thank you for posting!

Have you had problems with dogs becoming too sticky after debolting? As in closing down range, or losing independence in the field?

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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:30 pm

shags wrote:Thank you for posting!

Have you had problems with dogs becoming too sticky after debolting? As in closing down range, or losing independence in the field?
Yes, almost always but it's short lived. All the while I'm de-bolting them, I also reinforce the OK command, which they know is their free time. OK, mean OK so never release them with OK then nick them on here. It defeats the purpose. Everyone needs free time. I would never worry about the range issue with a spaniel, retriever, or NAVHDA dog, but it may be a concern for some venues. I've never been in to huge ranging dog's so I don't know but this I can say with certainty. Responsible training is responsible training and I have never seen that have an adverse effect on any dog. Any form of training can be abused though.
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Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:27 am

Congratulations now you have a dog that is afraid to leave your side and when he does, he has no range. Nice!

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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:40 am

There are many ways to debolt dog's. My way is done in three days and you can then proceed to other facets of training. Everyone eventually tries to have a reliably trained dog that comes when called. Just takes them a couple years to do it. My dogs work to their maximum range of 200 yards. That's all I want. I have never seen de bolting decrease the range of any dog when the practice is not abused.

Do you teach your dog's to come when called or let them come when they want to?

How do you teach them to come?
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Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:09 am

We come from 2 different worlds. I train mine to come but it's overlayed a period of months not days. My dogs will hang at a quarter mile plus in a trial at times. They need to have the confidence to do that. That takes time to put a handle on a dog to be able to do that.

You may be able to do as you claim, but I doubt most could get your results without going through a couple of dogs.
Not trying to argue, just my opinion.

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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:55 am

I've said before, I don't field trial. My world was gun dogs and field trial retrievers. You make it seem like a brutal process. It isn't. What you do in months and years, I do in days. The result is the same. It is almost impossible to ruin a dog using my (and almost every other pro's) method; you would have to be a brutal sadist to abuse it that badly.
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Re:

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:09 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Congratulations now you have a dog that is afraid to leave your side and when he does, he has no range. Nice!
This doesn't sound like just an opinion.
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debolt

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:33 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Congratulations now you have a dog that is afraid to leave your side and when he does, he has no range. Nice!
This doesn't sound like just an opinion.
I guess you're right. It's my belief. I don't approve of or have any use for his method. There. ...that's how I really feel about it. Happy now?

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Re: debolt

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:44 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Congratulations now you have a dog that is afraid to leave your side and when he does, he has no range. Nice!
This doesn't sound like just an opinion.
I guess you're right. It's my belief. I don't approve of or have any use for his method. There. ...that's how I really feel about it. Happy now?
Yep, and that is your right. Just goes to show there are several ways to skin a cat and sometimes what you want in the end might influence how you do it. I have seen and used both methods and they both seem to work but I do think one method works better for some dogs and also for some trainers.
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Re:

Post by Swampbilly » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:33 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Congratulations now you have a dog that is afraid to leave your side and when he does, he has no range. Nice!
No, what you have is a debolted, obedient dog who understands that HERE,...means....
HERE!.
Ain't all about your side being the "safest place", think you may have bitten into semantics- more like the "safest' thing to do is obey the given command and get his hiney to your side no matter what.
Dog also learns there's no where to run to to get away from the command or the pressure.

In the end, he's obeying with distraction, and even more importantly- pressure. You're drilling it home to the dog that there's no escaping the command itself-
Period.
8)
Last edited by Swampbilly on Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: debolt

Post by Swampbilly » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:07 pm

cjhills wrote:Can somebody explain Debolt. I guess I know what it means. but I do not know how you do it and why...................Cj
Gonehuntin' gave a great explaination.
Basically in a nutshell, you're giving the dog some options, or "choices" to make- with, and without distaction, and with pressure.
Dog learns there's no where on the planet to go to if he makes the "wrong choice" that's "safe" and the best choice-
Obey the command and get to your side.
It's an extension of pressure conditioning.

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Re: debolt

Post by SCT » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:12 am

The phrase "de-bolting" is interesting, and to me means you have a reason to believe your dog is going to bolt and be destroyed in his bolting. For that concern I can see it being very useful. It appears to also be an effort to strip all and any form of independence from the dog for at least a period of time. I can see it's usefulness, but I can also see it ruining certain dogs if the training is not performed perfectly. For me a bit of yard work training will suffice. Interesting method though.

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Re: debolt

Post by Swampbilly » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:08 pm

SCT wrote:The phrase "de-bolting" is interesting, and to me means you have a reason to believe your dog is going to bolt and be destroyed in his bolting. For that concern I can see it being very useful. It appears to also be an effort to strip all and any form of independence from the dog for at least a period of time. I can see it's usefulness, but I can also see it ruining certain dogs if the training is not performed perfectly. For me a bit of yard work training will suffice. Interesting method though.
SCT-
Every dog as an individual has it's own threshold of what it believes is too much pressure. For some dogs, it's a lot less than what you and I would think it "should be". Some dogs have higher thresholds.
That said-
Most dogs have a tendency to Bolt when they percieve what's too much for them.
The most helpless feeling in the world is having a distraction that can lead my dog into a dangerous situation. Don't know about you, but I'd rather not have to chase my dog down because I gave a command that he's ignoring, and get caught with giving a command and no way to re-enforce it.
Repetition, re-enforcement, attrition, over time works, however de-bolting shortens it up.Have been on both sides of the fence, and know that with the right situation, the right distraction, that a dog will ignore ya in a command no matter HOW MANY times you've re-enforced it.
To say that you're taking away the dogs' "independence", is like saying all dogs that are Obedient, and work well under pressure (no matter how they "got" that way), are prisoners and are no longer "independent".
Dogs live for themselves-
That's why we train 'em.
8)

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Re: debolt

Post by SCT » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:51 pm

Happy for you swampbilly, glad it works for you. I understand full well what bolting is and what de-bolting implies. Some folks need more control over their dogs than others. I encourage my dogs to bolt at breakaway along with many other forms of encouragement. I use leashes or stake out chains for de-bolting. So far they've worked adequately.

Steve

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Re: debolt

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:12 am

I dont want a robot. I want a dog with a brain.

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Re: debolt

Post by Spy Car » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:48 am

Somehow shooting at a dog with a bb-gun or firing at one with a marble from a sling-shot, with the aim of teaching a dog "there is no safe place in the world other than by my side," doesn't strike me as a wise idea on any level.

Were one observed by a law enforcement or animal control officer using such methods, I believe one would (rightly) find themselves spending time in the clink on animal abuse charges.

Bill

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Re: debolt

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:16 pm

Spy Car wrote:Somehow shooting at a dog with a bb-gun or firing at one with a marble from a sling-shot, with the aim of teaching a dog "there is no safe place in the world other than by my side," doesn't strike me as a wise idea on any level.

Were one observed by a law enforcement or animal control officer using such methods, I believe one would (rightly) find themselves spending time in the clink on animal abuse charges.

Bill
I would guess you are right today in some areas but out here in middle America where many of our officers have grown up with animals and many have worked with them I don't think you will find many that don't understand how important training is or the many methods that work without causing damage to the animal but does cause them to listen and respond. Times have changed and not always for the better.
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Re: debolt

Post by Spy Car » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:Somehow shooting at a dog with a bb-gun or firing at one with a marble from a sling-shot, with the aim of teaching a dog "there is no safe place in the world other than by my side," doesn't strike me as a wise idea on any level.

Were one observed by a law enforcement or animal control officer using such methods, I believe one would (rightly) find themselves spending time in the clink on animal abuse charges.

Bill
I would guess you are right today in some areas but out here in middle America where many of our officers have grown up with animals and many have worked with them I don't think you will find many that don't understand how important training is or the many methods that work without causing damage to the animal but does cause them to listen and respond. Times have changed and not always for the better.
In this case we'll have to accept we have a difference of opinion about what "for the better" (or not) means. Shooting dogs with bb-guns or a marble fired from sling-shot is an unnecessarily brutal way to "train" a dog.

Training dogs is vital. Abusing them ain't. In my estimation This is animal abuse. I doubt there is a judge in America that would see it differently.

Bill

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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:44 pm

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:Somehow shooting at a dog with a bb-gun or firing at one with a marble from a sling-shot, with the aim of teaching a dog "there is no safe place in the world other than by my side," doesn't strike me as a wise idea on any level.

Were one observed by a law enforcement or animal control officer using such methods, I believe one would (rightly) find themselves spending time in the clink on animal abuse charges.

Bill
I would guess you are right today in some areas but out here in middle America where many of our officers have grown up with animals and many have worked with them I don't think you will find many that don't understand how important training is or the many methods that work without causing damage to the animal but does cause them to listen and respond. Times have changed and not always for the better.
In this case we'll have to accept we have a difference of opinion about what "for the better" (or not) means. Shooting dogs with bb-guns or a marble fired from sling-shot is an unnecessarily brutal way to "train" a dog.

Training dogs is vital. Abusing them ain't. In my estimation This is animal abuse. I doubt there is a judge in America that would see it differently.

Bill
You are such a mis-guided and sheltered soul Spycar. For God sake, when I was a kid, we shot EACHOTHER in the butt's with BB guns (before hunter safety)! That or a marble hurts a dog no more than a crack with a whip and not nearly as much as a high level on an ecollar. Shoot, can't count the number of loads of rat shot I've taken to my posterir while steadying retrievers in the old days. You really have to get out more. :D
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Re: debolt

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:45 pm

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:Somehow shooting at a dog with a bb-gun or firing at one with a marble from a sling-shot, with the aim of teaching a dog "there is no safe place in the world other than by my side," doesn't strike me as a wise idea on any level.

Were one observed by a law enforcement or animal control officer using such methods, I believe one would (rightly) find themselves spending time in the clink on animal abuse charges.

Bill
I would guess you are right today in some areas but out here in middle America where many of our officers have grown up with animals and many have worked with them I don't think you will find many that don't understand how important training is or the many methods that work without causing damage to the animal but does cause them to listen and respond. Times have changed and not always for the better.
In this case we'll have to accept we have a difference of opinion about what "for the better" (or not) means. Shooting dogs with bb-guns or a marble fired from sling-shot is an unnecessarily brutal way to "train" a dog.

Training dogs is vital. Abusing them ain't. In my estimation This is animal abuse. I doubt there is a judge in America that would see it differently.

Bill
I understand IT IS YOUR OPINION and that is fine, but I only said that your opinion is not universal and there other opinions just as valid as yours and in different parts of the country where people have grown up under different circumstances you will find that there are other ways of doing things occasionally and many times they are just as good but different.
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Re: debolt

Post by Spy Car » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:53 pm

ezzy333 wrote: I understand IT IS YOUR OPINION and that is fine, but I only said that your opinion is not universal and there other opinions just as valid as yours and in different parts of the country where people have grown up under different circumstances you will find that there are other ways of doing things occasionally and many times they are just as good but different.
MY OPINION and I'm pretty sure "the law of the land" anywhere in the United States of America.

Fire a marble from a slingshot at a dog, or fire a bb-gun at one, and expect to go to jail.

Bill

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Re: debolt

Post by polmaise » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:15 pm

I used to use a Big Axe to split the logs and it done the job just fine,ok so some took a few more swings and and a few were just not going to split,but we had enough the right size for the fire and we were always warm.
I watched a guy using a Log splitter and it also split the logs but with much less effort and there were less ones on the non split pile.
My Grandpa would say those new Splitters of today which are far more advanced than the first one I used were just plain useless and a waste of time and money.

He is dead now unfortunately ,he knew much about Splitting logs for sure!
Reckon I looked at progressing how I could split them logs just the same but spend more time training dogs .

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Re: debolt

Post by gundogguy » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:20 am

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: I understand IT IS YOUR OPINION and that is fine, but I only said that your opinion is not universal and there other opinions just as valid as yours and in different parts of the country where people have grown up under different circumstances you will find that there are other ways of doing things occasionally and many times they are just as good but different.
MY OPINION and I'm pretty sure "the law of the land" anywhere in the United States of America.

Fire a marble from a slingshot at a dog, or fire a bb-gun at one, and expect to go to jail.

Bill
I wonder how many dog trainers have spent time in jail for giving a dog a correction?? I have never heard of it happening.
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Re: debolt

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:47 am

ezzy333 wrote: I understand IT IS YOUR OPINION and that is fine, but I only said that your opinion is not universal and there other opinions just as valid as yours and in different parts of the country where people have grown up under different circumstances you will find that there are other ways of doing things occasionally and many times they are just as good but different.
Right Ezzy.
Particularly before the E-COLLAR went into production :wink:
Folks had to find a.way
Thank the Lord GH didn't mention anything 'bout a cattle prod..
Whoops!
No,..did I say cattle prod!!?? :oops:

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Re: debolt

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:29 am

Swampbilly wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: I understand IT IS YOUR OPINION and that is fine, but I only said that your opinion is not universal and there other opinions just as valid as yours and in different parts of the country where people have grown up under different circumstances you will find that there are other ways of doing things occasionally and many times they are just as good but different.
Right Ezzy.
Particularly before the E-COLLAR went into production :wink:
Folks had to find a.way
Thank the Lord GH didn't mention anything 'bout a cattle prod..
Whoops!
No,..did I say cattle prod!!?? :oops:
I thought about the cattle prod and the 20 gauge with 9 shot also. Glad those days are over but even those used properly were pretty good training tools.
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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:56 am

Ezzy, I was once training on the Colorado River and so were a few other trainers of retrievers. I was the only electric trainer, the rest shotgun. One was training fairly close to me and the shotgun was booming all morning. I met up with him after lunch and said to him" Either you shot a lot of fliers this morning or had a barn burner of a blind set up". Her replied "Didn't shoot any fliers". End of discussion.
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Re: debolt

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:58 pm

For Bill's sake I think we need to explain that just like today, most people used those tools judicially but there were probably one or two who lacked the common sense to know how and when to use them.No.9's stung when they were out 50 or 60 yards just as a Beebe stung when out 20 yards. Choke chains, pronged collars, whips, sling shots, rocks, le3ashes, and check cords are all useful tool when used properly as is yelling, petting, stepping on toes, mouse traps, and a host of other tools that date back many many years and are still being used but today we have an e-collar and a Garmin that has the same qualification, used properly they are great training tools and as always, used improperly they can be hazardous to the animal being trained. True for shooting as well as petting, make sure you know what you are doing and use them constructively and humanely.
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Re: debolt

Post by Spy Car » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:16 pm

It boggles my mind that you think a dog can be hit with shot-gun pellets (or bb-s or sling-shots) it a "responsible" fashion.

Cattle-prods? Whips?

Jesus wept.

Bill

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Re: debolt

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:23 pm

^^^^^ + 1

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Re: debolt

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:36 pm

Spy Car wrote:It boggles my mind that you think a dog can be hit with shot-gun pellets (or bb-s or sling-shots) it a "responsible" fashion.

Cattle-prods? Whips?

Jesus wept.

Bill
And just to get it all over with at once I also think a child can get his butt spanked with a hand, belt, switch, or stick and have it produce some great results but it also can be a problem if not done properly. So many training tools that were discovered and used when that is all there was and now today people can't understand how these things progress over the years and just can't conceive of what it was like when we didn't have the conveniences and luxuries we have today. And someday in the future people will be unable to conceive of what people are doing today and will call them barbaric. But I don't think Jesus weeps over proper discipline but he might be over the lack of it.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:07 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:It boggles my mind that you think a dog can be hit with shot-gun pellets (or bb-s or sling-shots) it a "responsible" fashion.

Cattle-prods? Whips?

Jesus wept.

Bill
But I don't think Jesus weeps over proper discipline but he might be over the lack of it.
What a great line Ezzy.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: debolt

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:35 pm

Spy Car,

I think you read way too much into a lot of posts. Not a single one of us has even indicated what we had to do years ago was great but it wasn't all bad either when you knew what you were doing. But we all continued to look for better ways and that is what brought about all of the different tools people have come up with. Things like the Buddy Stick, the training table, the plain old barrel, and a host of others and then of course the dreaded e-collar. There are so many available tools today compared to yester year and as far as I know we all use them in some manner. But you need to understand too, a shotgun beebe doesn't hit any harder than a spitball at the right distance so just because you let your imagination run wild you need to give people credit for being just as smart as you are and used the tools they had in a responsible manner no difference than what you do. That's the reason we were able to train loving responsible, healthy bird dogs then as well as now.

Instead of making remarks about Jesus you should have been asking how we did it without injuring the dogs and you could have learned a lot.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: debolt

Post by Spy Car » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:16 am

ezzy333 wrote:Spy Car,

I think you read way too much into a lot of posts. Not a single one of us has even indicated what we had to do years ago was great but it wasn't all bad either when you knew what you were doing. But we all continued to look for better ways and that is what brought about all of the different tools people have come up with. Things like the Buddy Stick, the training table, the plain old barrel, and a host of others and then of course the dreaded e-collar. There are so many available tools today compared to yester year and as far as I know we all use them in some manner. But you need to understand too, a shotgun beebe doesn't hit any harder than a spitball at the right distance so just because you let your imagination run wild you need to give people credit for being just as smart as you are and used the tools they had in a responsible manner no difference than what you do. That's the reason we were able to train loving responsible, healthy bird dogs then as well as now.

Instead of making remarks about Jesus you should have been asking how we did it without injuring the dogs and you could have learned a lot.

Ezzy
No one "had to" shoot dogs with shotguns, or marbles fired from slingshots, or whip them, or hit them with cattle prods, to train them. Your premise is false.

I've trained hunting dogs for 45 years. None was ever abused in such a fashion.

I have NOTHING to learn from you or the brutal methods outlined by Gonehuntin'. Such methods are animal cruelty.

Expressing support for such things on a public forum is an appalling way for a forum moderator to behave. And I certainly don't need lectures from you on what I can or should learn from you. You are way behind the times.

Bill

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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:20 am

Probably time to lock the thread Ezzy. People have read what the method is and how to correctly perform it. Let them decide. I doubt there is a pro today that doesn't debolt dog's. Once again on here "Spycar" has managed to ruin a thread.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: debolt

Post by SCT » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:05 am

You think All Age pros debolt their clients dogs Gonehuntin? Retriever guys maybe. A pro horseback field trialer wouldn't be in business very kind if he did it.

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Re: debolt

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:28 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Probably time to lock the thread Ezzy. People have read what the method is and how to correctly perform it. Let them decide. I doubt there is a pro today that doesn't debolt dog's. Once again on here "Spycar" has managed to ruin a thread.
I know plenty of trainers that don't debolt as you call it. I never even heard of it until I saw it here.

You boys keep on defending it, and each other. You're showing your true colors. I wouldn't let you train my dog if you were the last guy on earth. SMH

Doug

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Re: debolt

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:30 am

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Spy Car,

I think you read way too much into a lot of posts. Not a single one of us has even indicated what we had to do years ago was great but it wasn't all bad either when you knew what you were doing. But we all continued to look for better ways and that is what brought about all of the different tools people have come up with. Things like the Buddy Stick, the training table, the plain old barrel, and a host of others and then of course the dreaded e-collar. There are so many available tools today compared to yester year and as far as I know we all use them in some manner. But you need to understand too, a shotgun beebe doesn't hit any harder than a spitball at the right distance so just because you let your imagination run wild you need to give people credit for being just as smart as you are and used the tools they had in a responsible manner no difference than what you do. That's the reason we were able to train loving responsible, healthy bird dogs then as well as now.

Instead of making remarks about Jesus you should have been asking how we did it without injuring the dogs and you could have learned a lot.

Ezzy
No one "had to" shoot dogs with shotguns, or marbles fired from slingshots, or whip them, or hit them with cattle prods, to train them. Your premise is false.

I've trained hunting dogs for 45 years. None was ever abused in such a fashion.

I have NOTHING to learn from you or the brutal methods outlined by Gonehuntin'. Such methods are animal cruelty.

Expressing support for such things on a public forum is an appalling way for a forum moderator to behave. And I certainly don't need lectures from you on what I can or should learn from you. You are way behind the times.

Bill
+1

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Re: debolt

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:31 am

I can't comment on that but IF they teach a dog to come when called, they debolt them. As far as I know, ever retriever and gun dog trainer debolt's his dog's by one program or another. If they don't care if a dog comes when called, then they don't.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: debolt

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:35 am

gonehuntin' wrote:I can't comment on that but IF they teach a dog to come when called, they debolt them. As far as I know, ever retriever and gun dog trainer debolt's his dog's by one program or another. If they don't care if a dog comes when called, then they don't.
Not like you do it.Keep on defending yourself. You're looking smarter by the minute.

Doug

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Re: debolt

Post by MJB64 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:08 am

Just a question here for the good old boys on this thread. If we did not have the e collar to work with, would you go back to shooting your dogs with shotguns and slingshots?

Mike
"Endeavor to perservere."

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Re: debolt

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:18 am

Of course they would.

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Re: debolt

Post by SCT » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:33 am

From the original explanation of de-bolting I would not have thought it just meant "training to come". So, teaching to come during some yard work is de-bolting??

Vitamin 9s were a very effective method of teaching certain things back in the day. But, how common was it to lodge a BB in a tail, leg joint, or eye??? I think back then dogs were thought more of as being livestock than they are today. Hence feeding them the same food as the pigs;-) Today people think of them as being human and even putting human emotions on them. Let's just be thankful for our electronic devises.

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Re: debolt

Post by shags » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:45 am

SCT wrote:From the original explanation of de-bolting I would not have thought it just meant "training to come". So, teaching to come during some yard work is de-bolting??

Vitamin 9s were a very effective method of teaching certain things back in the day. But, how common was it to lodge a BB in a tail, leg joint, or eye??? I think back then dogs were thought more of as being livestock than they are today. Hence feeding them the same food as the pigs;-) Today people think of them as being human and even putting human emotions on them. Let's just be thankful for our electronic devises.
Thus the numerous threads started by owners with Affluenza Dogs that growl, bite, bolt, whine, carry on, mark, etc.

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Re: debolt

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:46 am

Some of you guys really need to get over yourselves.

It is obvious to me that some of you have never had a real bird dog.

If you had, you would understand that a passionately driven, fiercely independent dog, with an insatiable desire to find birds that is bred and will be trained to operate on the ragged edge of control, is an animal that also needs to have a healthy measure of control trained into it.

You would also realize that any negative effects of the relatively short, relatively mild reinforcement technique described by Gonehuntin' is something that such a dog will shake off in VERY short order when it is subsequently exposed to birds. The exposure to birds and future training will go so much smoother, faster and with so much less backsliding, because you have a dog that "wants " to do what you want it to do, because it knows it must.

Plain and simple...if a bird dog can't take that level of training without folding its tents...it ain't much of a bird dog. Heck...it ain't much of a dog...period.

FWIW, I have and always have had...dog that were fiercely independent and that would do whatever it took to wrap their gums around a bird. Many of them were long before there were Shock collars and GPS's, so the dogs HAD to listen...they HAD to come back when called... and they HAD to want to stay with you..or they would be GONE.

This kind of dog sometimes needs the fear of God instilled into them. That is a fact that is still true today.

I wish I had known about Gonehuntin's methods back then. It would have made things much, much easier on both the dogs and me. That is all I will say.

RayG

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debolt

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:42 am

RayGubernat wrote:Some of you guys really need to get over yourselves.

It is obvious to me that some of you have never had a real bird dog.

If you had, you would understand that a passionately driven, fiercely independent dog, with an insatiable desire to find birds that is bred and will be trained to operate on the ragged edge of control, is an animal that also needs to have a healthy measure of control trained into it.

You would also realize that any negative effects of the relatively short, relatively mild reinforcement technique described by Gonehuntin' is something that such a dog will shake off in VERY short order when it is subsequently exposed to birds. The exposure to birds and future training will go so much smoother, faster and with so much less backsliding, because you have a dog that "wants " to do what you want it to do, because it knows it must.

Plain and simple...if a bird dog can't take that level of training without folding its tents...it ain't much of a bird dog. Heck...it ain't much of a dog...period.

FWIW, I have and always have had...dog that were fiercely independent and that would do whatever it took to wrap their gums around a bird. Many of them were long before there were Shock collars and GPS's, so the dogs HAD to listen...they HAD to come back when called... and they HAD to want to stay with you..or they would be GONE.

This kind of dog sometimes needs the fear of God instilled into them. That is a fact that is still true today.

I wish I had known about Gonehuntin's methods back then. It would have made things much, much easier on both the dogs and me. That is all I will say.

RayG
You said enough. You're just another hack like the rest of them. Don't talk down to people like you're their parent. You're not as smart as you think.

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