PLEASE WATCH! Cont. w/video - Shy Dog and Pigeons

[DeLo727]

Hey guys, I posted here earlier about what I should do about my pup being a little apprehensive around pigeons. I don't know if I am overreacting or if I have a concern or if I am handling this the right way. I figured posting video of things would make it easier for people to see what I am talking about and give an accurate response. To be clear, I am not asking what should have been done or what I could be doing. Im aware that things could have been done differently, but thats how I did them.
Im asking, How would you handle presenting birds to a dog that reacts this way?

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

He looks just fine to me. Very nice pup.

[shags]

I think you're overreacting. And you're also working against yourself. The pup is a little wary of a big bird flapping its wings. He'll get over it. You don't have one of the big monster beastly pups that charge in and kill/maul. He's a little cautious. Big deal More exposures over time will make a world of difference.
If you want to happy time your pup around birds, just let him rip. It sounds like you're nagging with the whoas etc; the quieter you are, the better. Let the pup work it out without your input. I would lose the checkcord. You want the pup to be bolder, so why are you using a control device? in the video, you see how he wanted to chase, and chase can build drive, but he was inhibited by the cc.
He'll be OK, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this.

[DeLo727]

I think you're overreacting. And you're also working against yourself. The pup is a little wary of a big bird flapping its wings. He'll get over it. You don't have one of the big monster beastly pups that charge in and kill/maul. He's a little cautious. Big deal More exposures over time will make a world of difference.
If you want to happy time your pup around birds, just let him rip. It sounds like you're nagging with the whoas etc; the quieter you are, the better. Let the pup work it out without your input. I would lose the checkcord. You want the pup to be bolder, so why are you using a control device? in the video, you see how he wanted to chase, and chase can build drive, but he was inhibited by the cc.
He'll be OK, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this.

Thanks shags. I nag him a little on the whoa because he's going backwards a little with that command. He was doing it really well and I started to let him off the cord and he started to not listen a little. I heard a well respected trainer say that you have to hold soft dogs more accountable because you end up having a tendency to not push them. I wouldn't say the dog is making me lose sleep but I do want the best out of myself, he deserves it. I really appreciate your input and I'm gunna mull it over for sure

[DeLo727]

He looks just fine to me. Very nice pup.

Thank you so much

[ezzy333]

I think you're overreacting. And you're also working against yourself. The pup is a little wary of a big bird flapping its wings. He'll get over it. You don't have one of the big monster beastly pups that charge in and kill/maul. He's a little cautious. Big deal More exposures over time will make a world of difference.
If you want to happy time your pup around birds, just let him rip. It sounds like you're nagging with the whoas etc; the quieter you are, the better. Let the pup work it out without your input. I would lose the checkcord. You want the pup to be bolder, so why are you using a control device? in the video, you see how he wanted to chase, and chase can build drive, but he was inhibited by the cc.
He'll be OK, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this.

Thanks shags. I nag him a little on the whoa because he's going backwards a little with that command. He was doing it really well and I started to let him off the cord and he started to not listen a little. I heard a well respected trainer say that you have to hold soft dogs more accountable because you end up having a tendency to not push them. I wouldn't say the dog is making me lose sleep but I do want the best out of myself, he deserves it. I really appreciate your input and I'm gunna mull it over for sure

If he was mine it wouldn't hear the word whoa in the field for several months, maybe when it is about a year old. Stop and think, you are trying to teach stand and don't chase at the same time you are teaching find and chase. The pup is confused. In the video when it was little, you tppk the bird away from it by lightly slapping the pup and it shied away from your hand, then every time it wants to go in a get the bird it has a CC and you saying whoa on its mind, You may not have heard myself and several others say one of the important tools you should have is a roll of duck tape so that every time you decide to say something to the pup put a piece over your mouth. It will solve your problem within a few days or weeks.

[shags]

DeLo,
What made you think your dog is soft?

[DeLo727]

DeLo,
What made you think your dog is soft?

I'm going to go ahead and delete that link because I can already see where the responses are starting to go. Thanks for all the response regardless.
Shags you don't see much in that video in regards to what I would consider his "soft nature". Maybe soft isn't the word, timid may be more representative. He's extremely wary of everything and its very easy to upset him. More so than any other dog I have encountered in my life. Negative reinforcement is never an option for him. I'm not looking at that as a problem. I just have to adjust accordingly and make sure I'm encouraging what I want rather than constantly disciplining, as was the old way of doing things.

[ezzy333]

Delo, I hope my post is not what you are referring to as I offer it as one of the most important things you need to do with any pup and especially one you feel may be timid. My advice has been given by me many times to many people when asked what they should do. It is an important part of training the owners as well as the pups in most seminars by most good trainers.

Hope you weren't offended it wasn't meant to do that. It would be my guess you can look through the archives and find that bit of advice many times and from many different people.

Ezzy

[DeLo727]

Its hard to offend me but it seemed like it was starting to go the route of many posts that I have seen here. Tone is hard to convey when you're writing it and its easy to be taken the wrong way when you're writing a quick response in a forum. I appreciate the clarification and I do really appreciate the advice

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

He is not soft. He is very smart. He is aware of lots of things. A dog like that is full of natural instinct. Don't rush him. Don't worry about the whoa. Let him work the birds his own way.

[shags]

DeLo,
What made you think your dog is soft?

I'm going to go ahead and delete that link because I can already see where the responses are starting to go. Thanks for all the response regardless.
Shags you don't see much in that video in regards to what I would consider his "soft nature". Maybe soft isn't the word, timid may be more representative. He's extremely wary of everything and its very easy to upset him. More so than any other dog I have encountered in my life. Negative reinforcement is never an option for him. I'm not looking at that as a problem. I just have to adjust accordingly and make sure I'm encouraging what I want rather than constantly disciplining, as was the old way of doing things.

Thanks for clarifying. I just wondered because sometimes folks think they have a soft dog, when the dog is actually resistant. They require different appoaches in training.

As a little FYI, my dog is and always has been a little timid ( only I haven't been so kind, and have referred to him as squirrely LOL). He's a little hesitant about things at times, that sort of thing. But he has turned out to be a very good bird dog, he's done very well for me and makes me proud. I hope your pup does the same for you.

I also hope that you and other trainers who ask questions on here take comments about technique etc not so much as criticism but as advice from folks who have been there, done that. Where a fella might be bringing on his first dog, some others might have brought along a dozen and have learned along the way. With experience, some of us can foresee potential problems or issues that can pop up, while more inexperienced trainers might not have the ability to see it. No offense is meant; mostly it's trying to pay it forward a little, trying to save someone else some trouble and aggravation down the line.

Good luck with your pup, I think he'll do great for you.

[kcbullets]

Nice pup. Personally I don't think you have any worries at all. All puppies mature at different times. The pup is birdie. I would lay off birds for a few weeks and just take him out for walks and let him explore. This will allow him to mature a little more, and help build confidence. Then try bird again and I bet you get different response. Sometimes the best thing for a puppy is slow down and make sure they are ready. I have to slow myself down sometimes to match the dogs personality and maturity.

[gonehuntin']

First, when you post stuff on an internet forum, expect criticism. If you don't, you won't last long.

The first pup you gave the bird was as big as the pup. Use small birds like quail.

He is showing a great desire to retrieve by running out to the bird. To pick up the bird and bring it back is training.

Not charging in a jumping on the bird is a sign of intelligence. He's not sure what the bird is and is cautious. A pigeon's wings hurt a pup when they hit him. I would not be letting that pup retrieve and unshackled bird. You could possible make him bird shy. Put the bird in one of your wife's or girlfriend's old pantyhose feet. That way he cans scent the bird and the bird can't move.

I'm with the others that say stop whoaing him. Teach him whoa, but not in conjunction with birds.

Basically, looks like a darn nice pup there.

[bobman]

looks like a perfectly normal pup to me, most act like that

Forget the whoa command and just let him have fun

I got cold watching that video lol

[DeLo727]

looks like a perfectly normal pup to me, most act like that

Forget the whoa command and just let him have fun

I got cold watching that video lol

haha -10 today, pretty warm by last years standards

[greg jacobs]

On pointing breeds I like to start a pup like willow creek does only i don't use a clicker. Feeding part of their food during training. All positive. If I'm going to make a mistake it's going to be under training not over training on a young pup. I walk with them and never say anything. I change directions if I think they aren't watching to get them to keep an eye on me. When I start them on pigeons I show them a bird and don't let them flap. I do this once a week till the pup wants to try to grab the bird. Then i take 4 or 5 in a bag and let them get excited and release them a few feet from their face. I like to release them closer to the ground. Never very close to the pup. You sure don't want the pup to get whacked by a wing. Or even have the noise scare them. I do this until they are really liking birds before i ever put a bird in a launcher. I crank the launch springs way back so the launchers are pretty quiet. I bring the pup in from the side crossways from the breeze. I make sure to bring them in 20 or 30 feet from the bird. When I see any reaction of the pup smelling the bird I launch the bird. They will start locking up as soon as they get a scent. At this point im working on stepping around in a circle to flush. I personally don't like to let pups chase. I use a cc and gently get them stopped before they go very far. Especially a high drive pup. I've found its easier for me to not start them chasing then having to fix it later. I take baby steps with a pup and leave them wanting more. Releasing one bird then planting a bird is taking a giant step.

[greg jacobs]

I don't even use chasing as part of gun conditioning. Guess I have a different method than many. I get a little more excited myself when trying to get a pup excited. They read you way better than you read them. They will react to and sense your emotions. That's good, bad, frustrated, and any other emotions that you have inside.

[greg jacobs]

Whoa means you better not move. That takes a lot of pressure to teach and enforce. I don't like to use pressure to teach a pup how to handle birds. I don't think whoa should be taught till latter if at all.

[whoadog]

what I see when I watch your video is a pup that is sight-pointing a live bird. Someone else said he is "confused" and I agree. He is not certain how to handle a bird that may fly off (as the last one did).

[DeLo727]

First, when you post stuff on an internet forum, expect criticism. If you don't, you won't last long.

The first pup you gave the bird was as big as the pup. Use small birds like quail.

He is showing a great desire to retrieve by running out to the bird. To pick up the bird and bring it back is training.

Not charging in a jumping on the bird is a sign of intelligence. He's not sure what the bird is and is cautious. A pigeon's wings hurt a pup when they hit him. I would not be letting that pup retrieve and unshackled bird. You could possible make him bird shy. Put the bird in one of your wife's or girlfriend's old pantyhose feet. That way he cans scent the bird and the bird can't move.

I'm with the others that say stop whoaing him. Teach him whoa, but not in conjunction with birds.

Basically, looks like a darn nice pup there.

Thanks for the pantyhose idea, that's pretty trick and I may use that. I'm also going to touch on something else you said too. I expect criticism but it's not the fact that it is given, it's how it is given. The way I was raised in the hunting community, we are supposed to be different, we aren't assholes and we don't talk down or put people down, at least not strangers that aren't in your gang. I'm always surprised by this because I was raised with manners, I was taught to be courteous, respect my elders, not to force my opinion on people or think I was better than somebody and to never talk down to anyone. I understand that times are changing every hunter I've known in my life with a couple exceptions is this way. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe I am careful about the company I keep but it never ceases to amaze me.
I remember as a young man at my hunting club, if you were new or if you were learning something you were embraced and helped along with open arms. Nobody looked down on you, nobody was disrespectful, you were accepted as one of them. That's how things were, and that wasn't that long ago people. A lot of us probably experienced this. If we wonder why recruitment is so low, you only have to look that far