A flagger

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muckalee
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A flagger

Post by muckalee » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:02 pm

All I have a 2 yr old pointer that is just a wonderful dog. He hunts hard, holds his birds well, retrieves to hand, everything you want but one exception; he flags until you get right up close and then he firms up and looks like a million bucks. And he will honor another dog but is going to flag. Driving me nuts. Just about got my other dogs flagging a little. Other than hunt him by himself are there any suggestions?

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deseeker
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Re: A flagger

Post by deseeker » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:11 pm

If you have a launcher & pigeons, you might try this. When he points and starts flagging, launch the bird(don't shoot it, just let it fly off like it was his fault the bird flew). Keep doing it and see if he stops flagging. If it works on the pointing, do the same thing on backing, if he flags on the back--launch the bird--see if that tightens him up. Does he flag on wild birds or just planted birds :roll: ?? Good luck :D

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ezzy333
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Re: A flagger

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:32 pm

Unless you are trialing I would pay more attention to the other end of a wonderful dog that does everything you want and you just might find the flagging will stop but if it doesn't you still have a dog that is better than many that don't flag.

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Sharon
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Re: A flagger

Post by Sharon » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:30 pm

Well said.

muckalee:
Often flagging is the result of the dog feeling too much pressure. I have no idea if this is the case with your dog.
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setterpoint
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Re: A flagger

Post by setterpoint » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:37 pm

i have found dogs will flag liberated birds but on wild bird do not flag why this is im not sure just like older dogs thats hunted wild birds sometime dont point with the same style as they do on wild birds iv had a few that know it just a game on lib..birds

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Higgins
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Re: A flagger

Post by Higgins » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:05 am

Something I have found that works with most dogs is to turn around and walk away if they begin flagging. Only approach when they are still. Don't say anything, be patient. They quickly begin to associate their flagging with stopping the hunt. Many of the dogs that come to me with this issue have simply been pressured around birds. Lots of "whoa", styling up, etc. The answer is often to just relieve pressure instead of adding more.

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Higgins Gundogs hunting etiquette

Dogs: Stay in touch and handle well. Always honor another dog's point, be steady when necessary and manage the birds for the gun.
Handlers: Be silent in the hunt. Allow the dog the freedom to do his work. Nurture the natural retrieve.

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Stoneface
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Re: A flagger

Post by Stoneface » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:57 pm

I would guess they are pen raised birds. If that's the case what's happening is he's not feeling the intensity. He flags because he knows he can. A dog points wild birds and does not flag because he realizes the movement - any movement - will get the birds up and gone in a hurry. They flag once or twice and are done with it because they are so up tight.

I like the answer above, but I wouldn't wait for him to start flagging. I'd launch the bird before he even smelled it. Then move to flushing the MOMENT he stops to point. Then after about a month of this go in for a shot and kill the bird, the back to the launching it at first point.

Another reason, besides the birds being pen raised is there are a lot of them. Why does he care if this one gets away or flushes, there's going to be another in two minutes. I train dogs for a living and work on a hunt club. The man who owns the hunt club has three dogs he uses guide. Every single bird they contact they break and chase. Every single one. It's because they know if they break and chase, there's another one right around the corner.
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ezzy333
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Re: A flagger

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:10 pm

I don't think it makes a bit of difference where the bird came from to the dog till you have told it. What I mean is you have worked the dog so much on a pen raised bird, a pigeon, or whatever when training the dog is thinking you are training and is bored. But to the dog, any and all birds are game birds till you teach it otherwise. If the dog is acting bored then do something different such as shoot a couple instead of letting them fly away. Then you retrieve one while the dog watches and let it retrieve one. Make the dog use it head trying to figure what is going to happen next and it will get back into the game.

Out smart your dog and it will be OK. Like I said before a place to start is ignoring the tail for a while and many times that willsolve your problem.

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muckalee
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Re: A flagger

Post by muckalee » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:52 pm

Guys thanks for the responses. I really appreciate it.

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Wenaha
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Re: A flagger

Post by Wenaha » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:32 pm

Flagging on point can be from a couple of reasons…

1. It can be hereditary - your dog MAY have inherited the tendancy to flag.

2. The dog could be communicating that he/she thinks there MIGHT be a bird, but is not certain

3. The dog scents a bird and is thinking that there is a high probability that it will get corrected for SOMETHING, This is the cause of 90% of flagging - uncertainty caused by training stress. If you take the e-collar off the dog and run it on wild birds, and SHUT UP when the dog is working birds, it might just stop flagging.
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Re: A flagger

Post by DonF » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:57 am

Sounds like the dog was over trained on what ever your training bird is. lot of people do that with pigeon's and after turning them over to game birds, find the dog is really soft on pigeon's or simply avoids them. You must use the traps to make the bird act like a wild bird other wise it become's a training bird. Then you end up with what you have. Training should be between the bird and the dog and using the bird in the trap to show the dog how to hold and get the bird. Hands off the dog, close your mouth and make the training bird act like a wild bird.
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tailcrackin
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Re: A flagger

Post by tailcrackin » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:59 am

Sounds like, they dog hasn't got the "knock" out of it yet. With both of your dogs doing the same thing. Just an opinion, on what you have written. The most common issue with flaggers, tends to be a dog, that's close to being, ready for the steady work. Or, a dog that has steadied, really fast, really easy. With dogs, a lot of times their thoughts.....are wanting to mature, and do good..........but the head can still race, and be anticipating the flush, and kill. They haven't been in school, or made enough mistakes, during the learning.....to fully accept being broke. They do because they have to, not because they want to. That is a huge statement. There is a big difference.
If you can stop the dog after the knock, and not let it chase........Set it up, get it on point, stand there and wait it out. It is gonna do one of two things. Either turn and leave the bird, or knock that son of a gun, and put it in the air. 99% says dirts gonna fly, along with the bird...hahaha. Dog thinks it needs to see it fly, and that's the situations, better option. If it doesn't, why does it flag, until handler shows? Dog knows handler gonna fly it. Let the dog knock it, but don't let it chase.
I wouldn't use any launchers, the dog sounds to be at the level of work, where it shouldn't need them, and it needs to clear its thoughts, itself. The bird control, will prolly open a new can of worms. Its in my opinion, lack of bird/handler respect. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: A flagger

Post by nevermind » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:55 pm

tailcrackin wrote:Sounds like, they dog hasn't got the "knock" out of it yet. With both of your dogs doing the same thing. Just an opinion, on what you have written. The most common issue with flaggers, tends to be a dog, that's close to being, ready for the steady work. Or, a dog that has steadied, really fast, really easy. With dogs, a lot of times their thoughts.....are wanting to mature, and do good..........but the head can still race, and be anticipating the flush, and kill. They haven't been in school, or made enough mistakes, during the learning.....to fully accept being broke. They do because they have to, not because they want to. That is a huge statement. There is a big difference.
If you can stop the dog after the knock, and not let it chase........Set it up, get it on point, stand there and wait it out. It is gonna do one of two things. Either turn and leave the bird, or knock that son of a gun, and put it in the air. 99% says dirts gonna fly, along with the bird...hahaha. Dog thinks it needs to see it fly, and that's the situations, better option. If it doesn't, why does it flag, until handler shows? Dog knows handler gonna fly it. Let the dog knock it, but don't let it chase.
I wouldn't use any launchers, the dog sounds to be at the level of work, where it shouldn't need them, and it needs to clear its thoughts, itself. The bird control, will prolly open a new can of worms. Its in my opinion, lack of bird/handler respect. Thanks Jonesy
That's some great advice... and I'll try to keep this in my memory bank, if I ever run into this problem. Just to be clear on keeping the dog from chasing do you use a check cord?

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tailcrackin
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Re: A flagger

Post by tailcrackin » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:23 am

Sure either the check cord, or ecollar. Most depends on or where the dog is at in training, I am assuming here, the dog is pretty steady, or broke?? Sometimes, a dog needs the chase, and knock a little more. I have worked with the dog, and let it go up and find the bird, and just stood there, outta site and out of dogs mind........and let them do what they want. The reason why, is a lot of people, tend to hurry, get the dog standing a 100%, before the have anything else done. Welp, its a risky way to start the gun, on a dog that's never been shot around, it can open, a huge can of worms, in a blink of an eye. Hopefully, I helped someone, in their thoughts with this. Thanks Jonesy
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Vision
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Re: A flagger

Post by Vision » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:38 pm

I have a dog that flags on pen birds but rarely flags on wild birds anymore. As a young dog she flagged in everything but over time she stopped flagging wild birds for the most part with the rare exception where she scents them along way off but does not have them pinned.

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Re: A flagger

Post by Jogan » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:52 am

New gun dog owner here. What is knock or as you said,"dog hasn't got the "knock" out of it yet." ? what does that mean?

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Re: A flagger

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:30 am

Jogan wrote:New gun dog owner here. What is knock or as you said,"dog hasn't got the "knock" out of it yet." ? what does that mean?
Not to speak for someone else, but my take on what Jonesy was saying is this... The dog may still have the "desire" to go in and try to either catch the bird or to put it in the air.

Knocking birds is deliberately putting the birds up and not pointing and holding. This is NOT uncommon for young dogs, especially those with a lot of prey drive.

RayG

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Re: A flagger

Post by DonF » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:59 am

Vision wrote:I have a dog that flags on pen birds but rarely flags on wild birds anymore. As a young dog she flagged in everything but over time she stopped flagging wild birds for the most part with the rare exception where she scents them along way off but does not have them pinned.
Pen birds act like pen birds. Wild birds act like wild birds.
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ezzy333
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Re: A flagger

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:18 pm

DonF wrote:
Vision wrote:I have a dog that flags on pen birds but rarely flags on wild birds anymore. As a young dog she flagged in everything but over time she stopped flagging wild birds for the most part with the rare exception where she scents them along way off but does not have them pinned.
Pen birds act like pen birds. Wild birds act like wild birds.
You are right Don, but the problem is the pup knows the pen raised means more training while the natural ones mean we are hunting. Just a case of over training with them and the pup getting bored. Start hunting and shooting the penned birds and the pup will get over it.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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