backing/honoring

[oldbeek]

I have read the entire 2014 post on backing. My dog has transitioned from a blinker to a point stealer. She has had loads of drills with pop up and multiple launchers. I have brought her in on a point with check cord. There she stops nicely. I have even given treats for backing. She is intense while watching the other dog shivering all over. Last trials, she stopped to back in one brace for about 5 seconds then continued to hunt. Next brace she interfered with the point. Last week I worked her with 2 dogs that back beautifully. One was a big setter so she could not miss her. Every time the Setter would point, my dog would instantly point another bird. (Luck?) We were in lots of birds. The setter would hold as I would flush my bird then make her back the setter. She is eager to please but She just hates to back. The check cord training seems to be my best option, just lots more of it. Any other suggestions?

[Wenaha]

If your dog knows what she is to do and does NOT do it, she is getting away with being disobedient. You need to enforce the rules.

[Sharon]

I have read the entire 2014 post on backing. My dog has transitioned from a blinker to a point stealer. She has had loads of drills with pop up and multiple launchers. I have brought her in on a point with check cord. There she stops nicely. I have even given treats for backing. She is intense while watching the other dog shivering all over. Last trials, she stopped to back in one brace for about 5 seconds then continued to hunt. Next brace she interfered with the point. Last week I worked her with 2 dogs that back beautifully. One was a big setter so she could not miss her. Every time the Setter would point, my dog would instantly point another bird. (Luck?) We were in lots of birds. The setter would hold as I would flush my bird then make her back the setter. She is eager to please but She just hates to back. The check cord training seems to be my best option, just lots more of it. Any other suggestions?

You win the prize!

Keep training for holding that back. CC / e collar /hands etc..

[setterpoint]

get you a sheet of ply wood draw out a dog on point cut it out paint it get a launcher put the bird in the launcher stand the dog like it is pointing the bird where your dog cant see it mabey behind some bush or hay bales or somthing then lead you dog around the bush where you dog will see it all at once then pop the bird in the launcher as soon as your dog see the plywood dog .then take the dog back to the truck and load another bird in launcher in the same place do this a few times the dog will start to expect the plywood dog to be there and start to point let him point if he moves pop the bird when the dog is holding point move the plywood around to diff.. places untill your dog will point plywood dog where ever it is you should have a dog that backs on a real dog on sight .............. you wont your dog to think plywood dog is real so dont let dog smell around the plywood dog

[oldbeek]

get you a sheet of ply wood draw out a dog on point cut it out paint it get a launcher put the bird in the launcher stand the dog like it is pointing the bird where your dog cant see it mabey behind some bush or hay bales or somthing then lead you dog around the bush where you dog will see it all at once then pop the bird in the launcher as soon as your dog see the plywood dog .then take the dog back to the truck and load another bird in launcher in the same place do this a few times the dog will start to expect the plywood dog to be there and start to point let him point if he moves pop the bird when the dog is holding point move the plywood around to diff.. places untill your dog will point plywood dog where ever it is you should have a dog that backs on a real dog on sight .............. you wont your dog to think plywood dog is real so dont let dog smell around the plywood dog

Have done this many times. WE have a pop up dog. We use two launchers. pop up dog then launch pigeon. Pup stops on flush. Approach pop up dog, say whoa to pop up dog, launch and shoot second pigeon. Let trainee fetch pigeon. Done many many times.

[shags]

IMO you need to go back to the check cord and insist she back. Cut the treats, that's an unnecessary distraction. She needs to focus on the job at hand, not on cookies or hot dogs. Keep quiet, no praise until after the bird is flushed and/or shot.
When she is reliable on the cc, you'll need to reinforce the training by running her down and setting her back when she blows a back. An ecollar works for a dog who wants to do right and needs a reminder, but your dog wants to do what she wants to do and to heck with you. So a little tap on the collar won't mean a thing, and if you dial up the power you run the risk of causing more problems. She needs a physical correction from a big, stern, warm body. Use a good steady unflappable dog and another handler to help you. Drag her back to the correct position, set her down firmly, and make her stand. You don't need to go ballistic, just make her do it.

A dog that steals point is a despicable creature. It's understandable in a young green dog that doesn't know any better, but to let it go on, is a bad bad thing IMO.

Good luck, your pup sounds like a dog I had years ago, just a challenge at every turn. Frustrating, but worth it in the end.

[polmaise]

I would give her much more birds on her own !
Re-Introduce the 'romance' you are looking for and could be trying to push rather than develop ?

[oldbeek]

I would give her much more birds on her own !
Re-Introduce the 'romance' you are looking for and could be trying to push rather than develop ?

She has had at least 250 points on wild quail in the last 3 months. I am going back to the cc. I have not found a dog yet that will find a bird before she does. Therefore I have to hold her back with a cc.

[polmaise]

She has had at least 250 points on wild quail in the last 3 months.

Of those 250 how many were when there was no other dog ?

[Chukar12]

There are lots of ways to work on backing and honoring, those that take a lot of work really seem to not care for it at all. When I train, most of the time the basis of what I do is built off of stop to flush drills. (not always but explaining in brevity is not my strong suit) When I find a dog that does not like to back, I work it off of the basis of its STF training. With a staunch pointing dog or silhouette I place two to three launchers with homing pigeons out. The moment the rapscallion that doesn't care to back sees the "dog" it should back, I launch a bird, if he stops I launch another and then the third, dogs are usually interested and look more interested when game is stimulating them in some way.

If I have to correct, it is because the dog did not STF, something I know the dog has down cold and more importantly the dog expects to be corrected for not doing its job. If he stops, he learns by association that a pointing dog means a bird in the air. The same association in a simpler example would be: Take a dog that knows "sit" stone cold, and add a hand signal such as a closed fist just prior to the sit. Hold your fist out and command sit. In a short time, the dog will sit when you present the closed fist. The same concept can often work with backing and STF drills if you can create the scenario.

[oldbeek]

She has had at least 250 points on wild quail in the last 3 months.

Of those 250 how many were when there was no other dog ?

225, the 2 days she was with another dog, one dog just followed her and backed. To give it credit, it had never been in wild birds. The other dog, she again was doing most of the pointing and when the other dog did point, she blinked it 3 times and was set back gently each time. Twice when the other dog pointed, my dog would point another bird simotaniousley . She honors the back off jack with launched birds. Always stops to flush. Today walked her into a point(real dog) on a cc she stopped and backed. Hour later we put her in a brace with a solid dog ( no CC) and she blinked the dog when it pointed. Also went to break and steal the fetch when bird was shot. grrr Never tried a real dog with a field of launcher all in one place. Think that will be next. ALSO as Shags suggested: Next time she does blinks she is going to get a big warm human putting her in place firmly. Gently placing her has not worked.

[Sharon]

I think you are moving too fast. Needs more work with the fake dog and the CC.. I put the fake dog over the top of the hill , launcher with bird ahead of that. I bring the dog , on Cc over the hill and flush the bird. Hills are very effective.
Just slow down a little. Not ready to be off Cc yet if the dog takes advantage of that opportunity every time.

[madmurph]

One of my dogs did not like to back and at times would blink a back. We incorporated the following into the training and developed an excellent backer.

OCCASIONALLY let your dog get the retrieve after a successful back. Only do it if you have a helper that can flush and shoot the bird. This way you can concentrate on handling your dog and execute a timely correction if your dog moves, creeps or attempts to break. Try it only if your dog backs promptly upon seeing the pointing dog and performs the back successfully without any movement. It is also so important to only do this only on occasion, as you obviously do not want the dog to think that he gets a retrieve every time that he backs.

[oldbeek]

Have tried giving her the retrieve in the past. Changed nothing. For the net three months she is only going to get roading to keep her in shape. I am entered in a NSTRA trial this week and that is the last birds she will see for a while.

[polmaise]

Have tried giving her the retrieve in the past. Changed nothing. For the net three months she is only going to get roading to keep her in shape. I am entered in a NSTRA trial this week and that is the last birds she will see for a while.

To be honest ,mine see more birds during Training than they ever see in a Trial.

[oldbeek]

In NSTRA, I will need 5 finds and 5 solid retrieves to get on the podium. If the dog avoids a back, it will not get a back score and may be scored down in obedience for not backing. My current strategy is to stay away from the brace mate.

[cstokes/southeast,ks]

From reading the post it sounds like your dog knows what it is supposed to be doing. She has demonstrated that multiple times. It is a battle of wills for you. Don't let her win. Make it uncomfortable to run by a back.

[oldbeek]

IN last months trial she was braced with our districts top scoring dog. She was running forward and slammed right into the wind and started into a fast creep over a hill. . The brace mate was up wind of her and slammed on point on the same bird as it crested the hill. As she crested the hill she saw the other dog stop on point. Being sure that was her bird, she charged in and took the bird right out of the bush. I was still on the other side of the hill to see the confrontation and the judges filled me in on the details. The bird flew over the hill in my direction. I whoaed her collared her and shook her up, all that is allowed, to show my disapproval. Warning one! Went on to find 3 more birds. Grrr.

[oldbeek]

Last weekend at the California Quail classic, she finally backed twice in one trial. Another break through. BUT, the fields were full of mice and gophers and she still has a lot of puppy in her. We didn't even make the top 25, but we had fun.

[Sharon]

In NSTRA, I will need 5 finds and 5 solid retrieves to get on the podium. If the dog avoids a back, it will not get a back score and may be scored down in obedience for not backing. My current strategy is to stay away from the brace mate.

That's a common plan, but the judge also knows that plan. Keep on training for the back to be reliable.

Shags: "A dog that steals point is a despicable creature." quote

I feel crushed. I had a dog that did that until "persuaded " otherwise.

[setterpoint]

one more post on this if the dog knows she is suppost to back but just wont do it then i would use the e collar whoa her to back with a check cord if she moves give her a nick. when do is staying put let her run and if a dog is pointing make her back with the collar

[tailcrackin]

Yea it can be a lot of check cord work. if the dog is broke on its game, your ecollar work, and everything else, is sound?? Right??
You sound like you have played with cord long enough, and the dog is sorta playing you now. See what I am saying? A lot of the good dogs, don't enjoy backing. But, with the cord on, it will do it, with it off, screw you Dad. LOL!! The method I use and teach, ecollar means to stop n stand. I don't tell them whoa, because most times, they aren't gonna listen anyway!! hahaha
So, use whatever its amount of collar it takes to have it stand. Its usually respect thing, on backing. If you are working the cord, do with another dog and handler. It will get amped up a lil with a brace mate. Expect that. You point set up bird first and let other dog back, and then vice versa. You wanna make it fair between your dog and the set up. You focus all on backing, and you can make it worse.....on the non backing.
If your ecollar work is sound and trust worthy, set dog up and tap it to stop, watch it because at first its gonna see what can get away with, try and move an that sorta stuff. LOL< play you a little!! Start small and work into big.
Your hands need to be the treats, pet the dog differently. Que it with your hands, that it done it exactly like you wanted. Your touch can be a huge difference in most all the dogs actions. Hope this helps some. this can be hard fix to type out!! Thanks Jonesy

[shags]

I think you explained that beautiffully. Thanks, Jonesy!

[oldbeek]

In a training situation she backs great. At NSTRA competition is where she would say screw you, I have birds to find. Last weekend she was braced with a very stylish English pointer. She backed him twice and the pointer backed her once. When a pointer slams to point, you have to admire that. PS The pointers call name was Mr Jones. Once she grasps a procedure she usually gets better at it. Hope this is a permanent break through.

[slistoe]

Here's hoping you have that booger behind you.

[shags]

OldBeek,
Is it possible to make a correction during NSTRA competition? That is, to collar your dog and put her into a backing position that she just blew? You might wind up eating that entry fee and losing any possibilty of a placement, but in my experience it's worth it in order to impress on the dog that the training applies no matter what or where or who or when.

[oldbeek]

OldBeek,
Is it possible to make a correction during NSTRA competition? That is, to collar your dog and put her into a backing position that she just blew? You might wind up eating that entry fee and losing any possibilty of a placement, but in my experience it's worth it in order to impress on the dog that the training applies no matter what or where or who or when.

Yes that is permissible, but scores 0, and she will stop on whoa command then back. I have done this also quite a few times. First gently and reassuring and then lately with much authority and determination. She stands, backs and shakes all over with excitement. I hold her collar slack (as required of the backing handler in NSTRA) and she does not offer to interfere when the pointer retrieves. After the other dog retrieves, I praise her and rub her up for being a good dog.
She knows what I want and is eager to please. This is why this last flaw was so frustrating. Thanks for all the comments and encouragement.

[tailcrackin]

I would set my training up, just like the trial. Brace mate wise, go to different area, than your working area. A lot of people tend to think, because the dog is at the home grounds, and its broke.....its gonna be broke, in other places. They will work into, being broke on the new grounds, but will take a correction or two, prolly. Thanks Jonesy

[oldbeek]

She is going to train at the trial grounds this week with another dog that is having the same problem. Today in a brace situation she wanted to blink the other dog on point. I said nothing. I just walked toward the pointer and ignored her. She came around next to me and slammed on point, backing the other dog. I do believe we have this problem solved.

[Meller]

She is going to train at the trial grounds this week with another dog that is having the same problem. Today in a brace situation she wanted to blink the other dog on point. I said nothing. I just walked toward the pointer and ignored her. She came around next to me and slammed on point, backing the other dog. I do believe we have this problem solved.

Did she back the other dog, or did she scent and point the bird?

[cjhills]

Do not bet to much on the problem being solved...........................Cj

[Carolina Gundogs]

There are lots of ways to work on backing and honoring, those that take a lot of work really seem to not care for it at all. When I train, most of the time the basis of what I do is built off of stop to flush drills. (not always but explaining in brevity is not my strong suit) When I find a dog that does not like to back, I work it off of the basis of its STF training. With a staunch pointing dog or silhouette I place two to three launchers with homing pigeons out. The moment the rapscallion that doesn't care to back sees the "dog" it should back, I launch a bird, if he stops I launch another and then the third, dogs are usually interested and look more interested when game is stimulating them in some way.

If I have to correct, it is because the dog did not STF, something I know the dog has down cold and more importantly the dog expects to be corrected for not doing its job. If he stops, he learns by association that a pointing dog means a bird in the air. The same association in a simpler example would be: Take a dog that knows "sit" stone cold, and add a hand signal such as a closed fist just prior to the sit. Hold your fist out and command sit. In a short time, the dog will sit when you present the closed fist. The same concept can often work with backing and STF drills if you can create the scenario.

Chukar12 gave great advice IMO. If you can find a copy or purchase a copy of Maurice Lindley's book Training with Mo, it will show you an easy to follow path to building a turnkey bird dog.

[oldbeek]

Do not bet to much on the problem being solved...........................Cj

You were right. Took her out to the trial grounds with an EP that had the same problem. She will not back " at the trial grounds" At training grounds today she backed after an attempt to blink. I said nothing and she backed. The other dog moved on shot, so was denied the retrieve and Missy got to retrieve that bird. The next brace , she backed great. The other dog got the retrieve. It was comical, the other dog came by close with the retrieve and gave her the stink eye, like na na na I got this retrieve.
I am going to just work on braces of backs for the next month.

[cjhills]

we like to give the backing dog some of the retrieves, but only when she does it right and for sure not if she moves. Do they actually figure out that if she does well she gets a retrieve and if she move she does not? who knows? But they seem to work it out......................Cj

[shags]

She knows what I want and is eager to please. This is why this last flaw was so frustrating.

I think the source of your frustration is that she knows what you want, and is eager to please....only that's herself and not you. She's being a brat.

Some dogs, you can train and practice all you want, but when the rubber meets the road, they do whatever they please. They know they can get away with it in a competitive brace. You need to get on her and make the correction in the moment, even if it means a 0 score or sacrificing the entry fee. You're risking those already, right? So correct her, and be done with it.
Some dogs respond to a shake and making them stand up through the back, others respond to leashing them and putting them up for the day. You'll have to figure out which works.

[oldbeek]

She got a score of 71 out of 75 in my last NSTRA trial. Slammed on point/back at about 30 yards off from a GSP on point and stayed intense. In NSTRA the backing dog has to be collared till retrieve is complete. She got lots of praise during her hold. I think we have got it down.

[slistoe]

[greg jacobs]

I've got a dog that is way to smart with way to much drive, low natural cooperation. Bird finding machine. This equals Pain in _ _ _. Didn't recognize what I had soon enough. That's the problem with only training a dog every 5 or 6 years. You start the same as the last dog but you have a totally different beast. A person learns from each dog.
Smart doesn't mean biddable. Your dog sounds a lot like my female. I'm going to try some of these ideas myself.
Good luck.
Greg J