A very sad day and need help

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evilstepdad
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A very sad day and need help

Post by evilstepdad » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:11 am

Mate smaller image.jpg
Got my pup at 8 weeks old and let him be a pup for awhile. At about 5 months I decided it was time to introduce him to the gun so started off with a blank gun at about 100 yards. My wife would go with me and I would let her do the shooting to start as the pup loves my wife and I can't blame him. First day was one shot and he looked that way for a couple of seconds and then went back to sniffing everything on the ground that had scent and that was the end of day one. two days later same thing.

two days after that we shoot first shot at one hundred yards and he doesn't even look to see where it came from so we shorten it to 50 yards away and shoot one more shot. He does a very quick glance and just keeps doing what he is doing before the shot no trouble what so ever. Next day we do the same thing and he doesn't even pay attention to it.

two day's later we go out and start at 50 yards and then again at about 25 with hardly a look at where the shot came from as he is busy scenting and running around (on his leash). We do another shot at 25 and call it a day.

two days later we take him running and shoot one shot at 25 and then my wife calls him to her and as he gets there she fires a shot and he just go's up to her and gets a pat on the head and go's about looking for something to find. We wait about 15 minutes call him to us and shoot right as he get's to us and nothing.

Next day we take him out again and fire a shot the first time he comes back just as he gets to us and no reaction from him. We do this one more time awhile later and just before we leave as we are standing there we fire one more shot and he acts like it is no big deal at all.

It is time to move on we figure so we wait a week and take him to a new place and let him run for about 10 minutes and fire the blank gun at about 50 yards and no reaction from him and then we go to half the distance and then a shot right beside him and he could care less about the noise of the shots. At this time I get about 100 yards away from my wife and fire a shot from my 12 gauge with a fairly low target load in it. He stops, looks towards me for about 3 seconds and then go's about his business. I figured that was good for day one. We go back out two days later and use the same process only this time I shoot at 100 yards and then about ten minutes later I shoot at 50 yards and he really pays no attention to it as he is busy with scenting and running around (on a 30 foot lead).

We call this good and wait for 3 days and take him out again. This time I start with the 12 and fire a shot at 100, 50 and then one right beside him and he acts like it is nothing at all. We fire one more shot right beside him about 15 minutes later and he doesn't look or react in any way at all. We are done with that part.

I told my wife the next time he will hear gunfire is around live birds and I figured he would be good just in case he got around any gunfire before live birds.

It has taken a lot longer than I thought to get pigeons and I finally have some lined up but something happened 4 day's ago that just about has me in tears.

Mate (that's his name) went out to do his business about 8 pm and somebody on the street behind us shot up a bunch of fireworks and they weren't your legal ones for the state of Oregon. These things made a big sound and lit the sky up, Mate came running in the house tail between his legs and shaking like a leaf.

Since then he has gotten to where he will go outside without looking to shook up but he barks at tv (he always have but now it is a lot) the neighbor behind me started pounding some nails and he ran in the house yesterday and the guy has been working on his house back there for months. I clapped my hands tonight in the house and he reacted to that by dropping his tail about half way and looking a little shaken.

So here I am and I am at a loss. I did do a search and looked under fireworks and saw and read a lot of the post so if anyone has had to go through this please let me know how you did it.

Sorry for being so long winded but Mate is the last hunting dog I will have and I hate to see a dog with such a good spirit looking like he is right now. Mate is 7 months and about 10 day's now.

Thank you
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CDN_Cocker
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:08 am

Fireworks scare lots of dogs so that is really no cause for concern. He'll get over it. From your narrative I see that you really tried to take your time with gun intro but you really are lucky that it went as well as it did. I would never fire a gun around a young dog without the presence of birds. Him looking at you when you're shooting means he is unsure and looking for comfort. You should wait until you have pigeons and let the pup find it and chase it.... once the dog is in mid chase then fire off a shot in the distance when he is not thinking of you at all. At the same time you are associating the fact that "bang means bird". I would stop trying to make other noises around the house and all that. They don't sound like a gun shot. Wait till you do bird intro, and once he is confidently chasing birds, then do the gun intro again while he is chasing. You're kind of doing things backwards.
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by shags » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:32 am

Your dog's reaction to fireworks is fairly common, so not to worry.
However, your approach to proofing him to the gun is a recipe for disaster IMO. It's nothing but random noise, and you're adding in consoling your dog when he comes in. That can make him believe that gunshot = something to worry about. Gunshot should be about birds, not just noise. Your dog ignores the noise. What I would aim for is for when the dog hears a shot, he perks up and looks around for birds. That's when you know you have it right.

You got good advice in the previous post. Put out some pigeons, let your pup find them and flush them. When he is in full chase, fire your gun. Then put the gun away until your dog is ready for the level of steadying that you desire.

It should be all about birds, not all about making noise.

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by cjhills » Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:06 am

That is a fine looking puppy. You should be proud.
you have received good advice. that is why we call it introduction to guns and birds. I have dogs that will hide when I mow the lawn but are fine with the shotgun. He will be fine. Do not comfort him when he is afraid of noise.........Cj

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by NEhomer » Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:19 am

Just a ditto on all of the above esp comforting him. He'll be fine but get those birds and for gosh sakes, be nicer to your stepkids!

Beautiful pup.

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:25 am

Fireworks are a bad deal. I would ignore them BUT the next time I took him in the field I'd have some birds. I don't care what kind they are, quail, pigeon, chuckar; any SMALLER bird will do. Throw the bird and when he's in full pursuit, then shoot when he's 25-50 yards away. I doubt you'll see any reaction from him. If he loves birds you can also throw a clip wing and just as he picks it up, fire the gun. Many, many dogs hate fireworks and quake when they hear them. That DOES NOT usually transfer to the gun.
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by evilstepdad » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:18 pm

Thank you all for your replies. Took Mate out for a run today and someone had one of those drones flying around and Mate stopped and looked at it but his tail was up and it was his usual way of checking out something new to him (like the mop but that's a different story) the person flew it a little low and he came back towards me and I just let him check it out and for lack of a better word joyfully encouraged him to check it out and he reacted fine.

I know it is like raising your kids, if you act like they are really hurt they hurt more than they should and the night the fireworks went off for me it was more like what the heck is going on. You are all right tho and as I stated in my original post there will be no more gun fire unless there are birds.

I had to put a add on craigslist and had it answered but two weeks in a row I have been told next weekend so hopefully they are going to let me pick them up this coming weekend.

Again, thank you

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by Sharon » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:19 pm

If you list your location, someone close might be able to help you out with pigeons.
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by setterpoint » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:49 pm

my old setter thats gone now was scared of fireworks an thats a under statement but you could shoot right over her head if you shot she would come to find the bird you got i think i would start over just to be safe but i would throw a bird and let the dog chase after it and fire the blank gun if no reaction move to shot gun make sure dog is in hot persuit and fire i bet your dog will do just fine let us know how it gos good luck

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:15 am

As several other replies have said Fireworks are not the same as a shotgun bang so provided you give your pup something to do that it likes doing when firing a gun your problem should go away.

Personally, I would however, be very wary about firing either a starting pistol or a dummy launcher near the pup . Starting pistols make a "crack," shotguns make a bang and dogs can tell the difference.

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by gundogguy » Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:02 am

Trekmoor wrote:As several other replies have said Fireworks are not the same as a shotgun bang so provided you give your pup something to do that it likes doing when firing a gun your problem should go away.

Personally, I would however, be very wary about firing either a starting pistol or a dummy launcher near the pup . Starting pistols make a "crack," shotguns make a bang and dogs can tell the difference.

Bill T.
+1 Exactly. The evilstepdad should move forward very cautiously! Gun noise thresholds are very difficult to interpret.
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by NEhomer » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:36 am

evilstepdad wrote:Thank you all for your replies. Took Mate out for a run today and someone had one of those drones flying around and Mate stopped and looked at it but his tail was up and it was his usual way of checking out something new to him (like the mop but that's a different story) the person flew it a little low and he came back towards me and I just let him check it out and for lack of a better word joyfully encouraged him to check it out and he reacted fine.

I know it is like raising your kids, if you act like they are really hurt they hurt more than they should and the night the fireworks went off for me it was more like what the heck is going on. You are all right tho and as I stated in my original post there will be no more gun fire unless there are birds.

I had to put a add on craigslist and had it answered but two weeks in a row I have been told next weekend so hopefully they are going to let me pick them up this coming weekend.

Again, thank you
Pigeons are pretty easy to net out of barns at night and most farmers are more than happy to have you catch them. Blind them with a bright flashlight and then tickle them out of their perch with a long pole. When they try to fly they'll be blinded (headlamps work great for this) and flutter out very slowly. Two guys waiting with nets make it pretty easy. That's what I did all last summer.

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:05 pm

You guys have hit on something I have tried to tell people for years about noise. I don't think dogs are scared of noise per se but are scared of what happens after hearing it. Fireworks produce vibrations they don't understand much like thunder. If a loud noise means birds or even that they are in the field doing what they love to do then it becomes very pleasant for them. This is the reason in my experience making different noises around a pup when it is young means very little as they easily know the difference. Same with using a rifle to start gun introduction results in more problems than starting with the gun you will use when hunting. It is not the noise but what it means to the dog. That is why many great hunting dogs are scared of thunder and fireworks,
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by DonF » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:20 pm

I don't think you have a very bad problem. Take him out on birds and when they flush, do not fire. Let him get under way with the chase and then fire. Do not, at that time hold the blank gun in the air, hold it behind your back, muffle the sound. had a dog years ago that was terrified of loud sounds, thunder drove her so wild we had to put her on sedatives when a storm came in. She always let us know when it was coming before we heard it. Hunting, shotgun's never bothered her at all!
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by The Zephyr » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:18 pm

They had fireworks a mile or so away so I thought I would sit on the front porch with the dogs and watch. They'd have none of of it.
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by whoadog » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:38 am

ezzy333 wrote:You guys have hit on something I have tried to tell people for years about noise. I don't think dogs are scared of noise per se but are scared of what happens after hearing it. Fireworks produce vibrations they don't understand much like thunder. If a loud noise means birds or even that they are in the field doing what they love to do then it becomes very pleasant for them. This is the reason in my experience making different noises around a pup when it is young means very little as they easily know the difference. Same with using a rifle to start gun introduction results in more problems than starting with the gun you will use when hunting. It is not the noise but what it means to the dog
I have given this same subject a great deal of research and thought. IMO, given that dogs hear a much wider band (read that: have more sensitive ears), I believe that loud noises, no matter what they are, can produce pain in a dog's ears just as in a human's. Anyone who has had ear pain associated with loud noises, whether it is from firearms or rock concerts can relate to what I think a dog goes through with fireworks going off immediately overhead. Much like your point Ezzy, that's why I think effective gun introduction techniques in which the dog associates the sound with a pleasurable experience is so important. I would disagree, however, that making loud noises around young dogs is pointless, especially at feeding time. If the noise is loud enough to produce pain in the dogs' ears and the pups associate it with food, I think it more likely they will accept ear pain in other situations with a pleasant outcome at the end. A sort of "muscle memory" if you will.

To the original post, I have seen fireworks produce gunshyness in dogs, but only in ones that had not been properly conditioned to gunfire before being exposed to fireworks.

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by evilstepdad » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:17 am

Thanks for all the replies. Mate is not the same pup he was before this happened. Supposed to pick up pigeons tomorrow and I hope it happens this time.

I am thinking of just letting him hit the scent cone and chase the first one and then let it be for the day. I will do it early when we go out and let him look around for quite awhile longer. If things fall right I will follow this up the next day and see how he reacts to gun fire once he is chasing the pigeon. I am hoping it is good.

He has gotten a little better but still a little jumpy around some things he never was before and barks a crap load more than he did before this happened.

I have lots of time so will take it to make sure he is ok.

gopro has really let me down as I wanted to video a lot of Mates training but it just won't work on a regular basis. Hoping to have the first time he chases and gun being fired video'd and will link my web site so you can see how he acts.

Again, thanks to everyone.

By the way I live in Winston Oregon just out of Roseburg. Think Wildlife Safari lol

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by shags » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:45 am

Why the rush to expose your dog to gunfire? If he's skittish it might behoove you to put it on the back burner for a while. You can happy time him, put out birds for him and do some training, and keep the pressure of the gun off for now.

If he's acting skittish in the house, don't baby him or reassure him because you'll reinforce the behavior. You have to be careful that you don't show any stress over his reactions too. Ignore the nervousness, and when he barks inappropriately, tell him to knock it off and go about your business.

Most likely your dog will straighten out. It might take a while. Be patient. Calm. Serene. Index finger to thumb. Ohmmmmm. :D You both will do fine. Just slow down and back up a bit, remember there is no time limit and it takes as long as it takes.

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by deseeker » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:40 am

I'd let him chase a bunch of pigeons over a few days without the gun. When you do decide to use a gun, take a buddy to shoot in the air at least a 100 yards away from the dog to see how he reacts and go from there. good luck :D JMO

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by Sharon » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:07 pm

whoadog wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:You guys have hit on something I have tried to tell people for years about noise. I don't think dogs are scared of noise per se but are scared of what happens after hearing it. Fireworks produce vibrations they don't understand much like thunder. If a loud noise means birds or even that they are in the field doing what they love to do then it becomes very pleasant for them. This is the reason in my experience making different noises around a pup when it is young means very little as they easily know the difference. Same with using a rifle to start gun introduction results in more problems than starting with the gun you will use when hunting. It is not the noise but what it means to the dog
I have given this same subject a great deal of research and thought. IMO, given that dogs hear a much wider band (read that: have more sensitive ears), I believe that loud noises, no matter what they are, can produce pain in a dog's ears just as in a human's. Anyone who has had ear pain associated with loud noises, whether it is from firearms or rock concerts can relate to what I think a dog goes through with fireworks going off immediately overhead. Much like your point Ezzy, that's why I think effective gun introduction techniques in which the dog associates the sound with a pleasurable experience is so important. I would disagree, however, that making loud noises around young dogs is pointless, especially at feeding time. If the noise is loud enough to produce pain in the dogs' ears and the pups associate it with food, I think it more likely they will accept ear pain in other situations with a pleasant outcome at the end. A sort of "muscle memory" if you will.

To the original post, I have seen fireworks produce gunshyness in dogs, but only in ones that had not been properly conditioned to gunfire before being exposed to fireworks.


Good point. My JRT is afraid of tinfoil. I think because he knows the foil is going on the top of the dog food can and that's it. . :)
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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by whoadog » Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:43 am

evilstepdad wrote:I am thinking of just letting him hit the scent cone and chase the first one and then let it be for the day. I will do it early when we go out and let him look around for quite awhile longer. If things fall right I will follow this up the next day and see how he reacts to gun fire once he is chasing the pigeon.
If he is chasing the pigeon and you shoot and the pigeon keeps on flying, what have you accomplished? Your dog has formed a negative opinion of gunfire. Your goal should be to get him to associate a the sound of a shotgun with something good. I like to try and get them to thinking that gunfire means a bird falling from the sky. In your shoes, here's what I would try. First of all, get a launcher. The first few birds you put out should be full-flight birds. Make sure you are carrying your gun during every session. Let him chase the full-flight birds with no shot. Once you know the launcher isn't going to freak him out, put a clipped wing pigeon in. Have a buddy about 100 yards off fire an empty shell hull reloaded with just a primer just as the bird hits the highest point of the launch and begins to fall. You and your buddy should practice this without the dog present to get the timing right. After the clipped wing bird, return to a full-flight bird with no shot. I would use about a 3 to 1 ratio of flying birds to clipped wing with only one or two repetitions per session. It's better to use more short sessions than one long one. Once he shows no reaction to the primer, start moving the shooter in until he is about 10 yards off the dog with the shot. When you reach that point, try the same program with full loads but put your shooter out about 150 yards to begin with.

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Re: A very sad day and need help

Post by marysburg » Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:55 pm

Good tip from whoadog regarding the launcher. If your pup likes to chase balls, frisbees or has a favourite fuzzy toy, then set a launcher up in the yard where pup can see it. Load it with as many of his toys as you can. With pup on leash, from across the yard, launch the toys, then run to the launcher area and have a party. He will associate the launcher noise with the appearance of fun stuff. In the small chance that the launcher scares him, it will have had nothing to do with birds. Good luck with your pup. He'll do fine with guidance from you.

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