using the "nick" on retrive? ?? fair ??

[dottie]

I have a 3 year old nutered male Brittany who will land retrieve from any distance. He has done practice water retrieves but very few. He was conditioned to the retrieve with the leash, his food bowl and constant repetition.
He loves to chase squirrels and because they are so plentiful in my yard and in the area I use to train ....I let him.
He can see the squirrels as we arrive to train and excerize.....immediately out of the truck I whoa him and have him retrieve 4/5 times.....he is hesitant,casting his eye to the squirrels rather than focusing on the retrieve.
He has never refused a land retrieve but.....MY QUESTION ....is it fair to nick him if he refuses to retrive?
He has been trained with the remote collar ...but I do not want to discourage him by giving him any idea that the retrive is in any way linked to anything negative.
Thanks I have received and used most of my training ideas from answers on this forum. I appreciate the help.

[ezzy333]

Dottie, where did the idea that anything negative isn't fair? If it was a real concern, then you would also have to get rid of the leash, check cords and the word NO. Dogs need to know and we all spend many hours teaching them actions have consequences. Without that knowledge they will be just as spoiled as many of our children. It has been common knowledge that a division of 70% positive and 30% negative has been the best way to train for years and it is rather recent that Dr. Spock started advocating all positive which washed over in to animal training. Strange thing is it doesn't work and even the good doctors son committed suicide. Fair in my book is the least amount of negative training that it takes for the dog to learn and react accordingly. And the dog will not hold grudges if you are consistent.

[Spy Car]

Dr Spock's son did not commit suicide.

Bill

[Timewise65]

Being a guy with Retrievers trained for field hunting, we seldom get a refusal to go out on a retrieve, that's why they call them retrievers... But, with a young dog they do not always return/ or return properly delivering to hand. And yes we do reinforce good behavior with the e collar. Usually with a cadence like 'Here' nick "Here"....which is the sequence to use for a trained dog to bring the item fetched back delivering to hand.

Fundamental to all of this is that the dog: 1. Understands what you are commanding them to do. e.g. 'Fetch' means go out and get the mark! 2. The dog has been properly collar conditioned so that they know when the 'tingle' starts they can 'turn it off' by complying with the command given. If you absolutely know your dog completely understands these basics, then use of a collar to reinforce trained commands is a viable approach.

Finally, has your dog been Force Fetched including Collar Conditioning? This is the primary and fundamental way to train a dog to retrieve on command. It builds a fundamental desire to fetch on command. And they learn the commands 'Hold' and 'Drop'....an added bonus is if taught properly dogs will be less likely to become 'hard mouthed' also.....

If your dog has not been Force Fetched I would find a pro and have him take you dog through this training. Nothing to lose and everything to gain....

Good Luck

[ezzy333]

Dr Spock's son did not commit suicide.

Bill

Of course you are right. I meant to say grandson. Thanks for catching that.

[gundogguy]

you may need a transition drill to move on to the e collar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4mByJdtL44

[gonehuntin']

If he has been taught all commands on the collar, here, kennel, whoa, fetch, then it can be used. If not you run the risk of confusion. That is, making the retrieving object "hot" and him refusing to retrieve it again. The collar is all about consistency and timing. A lack of either can cause large problems with the dog.

[CDN_Cocker]

MY QUESTION ....is it fair to nick him if he refuses to retrive?

Simple answer is this.... If he has been force fetched, YEP YOU BETCHA! If he hasn't then no it's not fair. He won't know what's going on.

[polmaise]

It didn't do it wrong , it just didn't do it right !
according to the handler .
Rings in my ears .
I personally don't have the time to explain on here . But I'm sure there are more than qualified who will .
Regards.

[Trekmoor]

My query is this......would it not be better to have the dog disregard the squirrels, possibly by use of the e-collar than risk making the dog wary of retrieving ? I fully agree that I don't understand e-collars very well but if the problem is the squirrels why focus on the retrieve ? I think I'd concentrate on the recall and get that working really well even with squirrels around before adding a retrieve. A retrieve is a recall with something in the dogs mouth. It can be trained separately to the actual retrieve with no danger of "poisoning" the retrieve.

Just the opinion of a non- e collar person.

Bill T.

[gonehuntin']

A retrieve is a recall with something in the dogs mouth. It can be trained separately to the actual retrieve with no danger of "poisoning" the retrieve.

Just the opinion of a non- e collar person.

Bill T.

Non collar person or not, that's an excellent observation. The squirrel are what we'd refer to as a "distraction" in retrieverdom and should only be added at a more advanced level.

[Timewise65]

Dottie.....are you still with us?

Seems odd you have not responded after your post?

Just sayin.....

[crackerd]

A retrieve is a recall with something in the dogs mouth. It can be trained separately to the actual retrieve with no danger of "poisoning" the retrieve.

Just the opinion of a non- e collar person.

Bill T.

Non collar person or not, that's an excellent observation. The squirrel are what we'd refer to as a "distraction" in retrieverdom and should only be added at a more advanced level.

And to hit the dog with the e-collar, whether nick or continuous, when it hasn't been trained for distractions is the same as "trash-breaking" by direct pressure as practiced by our pointing dog brethren. In other words, doing such when the e-collar application could be associated with the retrieve would be verboten in my book.

MG

[gundogguy]

A retrieve is a recall with something in the dogs mouth. It can be trained separately to the actual retrieve with no danger of "poisoning" the retrieve.

Just the opinion of a non- e collar person.

Bill T.

Non collar person or not, that's an excellent observation. The squirrel are what we'd refer to as a "distraction" in retrieverdom and should only be added at a more advanced level.

And to hit the dog with the e-collar, whether nick or continuous, when it hasn't been trained for distractions is the same as "trash-breaking" by direct pressure as practiced by our pointing dog brethren. In other words, doing such when the e-collar application could be associated with the retrieve would be verboten in my book.

MG

+1 MG I find it interesting that we have two similar posts concerning the appropriate use of the e-collar, In one case a Springer (viewtopic.php?f=89&t=50667) and the other case this Dottie' s Brittany.
I knew the moment a few years back when i saw e-collars being mass merchandise by the mortar and brick, and online retailers guys that many issues like these would ensue. I can only imagine how many dogs are being so poorly developed by Amature's and their misunderstanding of what and how electronic corrections are really applied in training a dog, that we do not even hear about.

Like Have always told my clients,I have a Buck hunting knife that is razor sharp, and bottle whiskey, give call when you want to save some money on surgerys I can cut just about anything out that bothering you or children! (sarcasm).

[dottie]

Dottie.....are you still with us?

Seems odd you have not responded after your post?

Just sayin.....

Dottie here, 
I have been studying the answers to my original post.
I think after reading the answers I should have been more precise.
My dog has never refused a retrieve. I should have emphasized that my concern was his (slight) attention to the squirrels.
I was using the squirrels as a distraction and a reward.
Some answers have also referenced "force fetch" training. While I appreciate the comments and the insight I will probably not redo the current training/sititution with force fetch training because I do not feel confortable doing it myself and decided when I rescued him (Zippy) that I wanted to train him myself. I am retired and I have the time and the patience.
I think what I was really after was opinions on the procedure of using squirrels as a distraction and a reward!!!???
" ok, Zippy ... you can chase the squirrels, because you obeyed the command to fetch"
The second part of my query was... 
if Zippy ever does refuse a command / on land at this point/ ....what should be my response??
Again I really appreciate the opinions, comments and expertise offered by the members of this site. Thanks

[Trekmoor]

The reward for going out and getting the retrieve should be the retrieve article and not a chase on a squirrel in my opinion. Your dog won't know if he is coming or going if you allow chases on squirrels on some occasions but not on others . I think doing that would cause troubles with retrieves. The dog would be confused.

It might be possible to use the squirrels as distractions sometimes but not as rewards. Long before your dog has reached the stage where squirrels could be used as distractions the dog would already need to be a good, keen , consistent retriever of dummies (bucks.)
If you don't want to use an e-collar that's fine, I don't use one either but I might have to if I sometimes allowed/encouraged my dogs to chase squirrels.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Yea, well 'Sit means Sit' .

[polmaise]

Yea, well sit means sit .

[CDN_Cocker]

Some answers have also referenced "force fetch" training. While I appreciate the comments and the insight I will probably not redo the current training/sititution with force fetch training because I do not feel comfortable doing it myself and decided when I rescued him (Zippy) that I wanted to train him myself.

Well then your answer is no, do not use the collar to correct for not retrieving as it will only confuse the dog. The collar is used to reinforce known commands that have been transitioned to the collar. Sit is an excellent example for most people and "Here". If he is wearing a collar, what have you used it for up to this point? How did you condition him to it? These questions will answer what you can and cannot 'nick' him for.

As for an opinion on using squirrels as a distraction and a reward... I suppose you could, but then you're going to have a dog obsessed with chasing squirrels because you are putting it up on a pedestal by making it a reward item. I would personally be training him to ignore them. I think by continuing on this path you will find down the road that this will become more of a problem than a benefit for you...

[polmaise]

Dottie or anyone else could do with a yard with Chickens .
Mind You they get used to the chickens ,so It's back to the drawing board with something like Squirrels ?.
Sheep ?....
On a personal note and having had much experience (fwiw) on Trash breaking' ...This side of the pond . 'Sit' actually means ''Sit' ! and 'Heel' actually means 'Heel' ...Good dog
So how is there a problem ?.

[CDN_Cocker]

I think the problem here is that you are not teaching the dog to work through distraction rather, you are making the distraction the reward.... therefore making him more focused on the distraction instead of the task at hand. Kind of bass ackwards... LOL

[Timewise65]

Dottie,
Glad to see you back....I went and reread your first post and it occurred to me that you did not actually say that your dog has been "collar conditioned" That is a training routine that is critical for any dog whos owner choses to use an e collar. Commonly many include this at the end of the force fetching routine, regardless anyone using an collar must learn and apply "collar conditioning' training to a dog prior to using the collar. If this is not done, the dog will never figure out why he is getting burned, he will not link his behavior or lack of behavior to the pressure. Nothing good can come from training a dog with the e collar if they have not been conditioned to it.

This training process is readily available many see collar manufactures and/or search on the internet you can find a lot about it.

If you dog has been collar conditioned already, the disregard my comments....

Your are correct in not Force Fetching your dog, if you have never done it. Not something easily done without a lot of dog training experience, although the process has changed dramatically over the last 10 years. Should you decide to consider find a local pro....

Good Luck

[Swampbilly]

Collar is to Push, Pull, and Stop the dog.

Unless the dog has been properly FF'd , (including collar FETCH), I'm not sure how you'd be able to effectively Push the dog with only basic Cc'd known commands.
Would be concerned about a whole lot of collar corrections with marks.
Careful with that.