Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

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Taylor_B
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Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Taylor_B » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:44 am

Back again with another question for the forum!
Our English setter - now around 10 months old - is giving us some problems with consistent, reliable recall.
We never had this problem with our first dog as we got her at 8 weeks old, and she was always very aware of our location in proximity to her, has excellent recall, and responded very well to e-collar training.
Our new guy - not so much.

He's good in the house - will come when called and follow commands. He's not too bad in the fenced in yard either (not nearly as good as when we're inside, though).
But we've started to introduce him to the field (with a check cord). We've started to drop the check cord and practice his response to commands when he's not in the house or yard.
This has proven to be very difficult. It's as if he completely shuts us out. We also have an e-collar for him - he completely ignores it. Even the highest level that causes our 65lb lab/weim mix to yelp, barely seems to phase him - he completely ignores it and carries on sniffing or trotting.

There was a time where he slipped out of his harness at the game lands and was briefly loose. He ignored our calls and our e-collar, and just ran like a "bleep" deer around the land. Eventually, he came running over to us, but it was certainly not without us having to do some chasing.

I'm curious if anyone can provide some insight for training a stubborn dog to consistently respond to commands in the field, and if anyone has a recommendation for an ecollar that might be more reliable for a pup of his nature.
The place where we take him for obedience training isn't all that helpful - they recommend using a lot of treats in training. Problem is - with a hunting dog, they're not waiting at your hip for a cookie - they're out working. And we need him to respond to commands when he's ranging in front of us without the necessity to give him a treat for it.

We'd love to get him working a little more in the spring off leash, but he cannot be trusted right now.
All insight is welcome, as our stronger e-collar recommendations.

We know he has an interest in birds, but he can't hunt until we can guarantee he won't take off!

(**as for background, we adopted this guy from a shelter at 7 months old, and have been working with him to bring him up to speed on obedience and an introduction to the field).

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:24 am

Not an uncommon problem, but could be a number of issues going on here. Some dogs learn a reliable recall fairly easy if their early obedience was taught properly, including force fetching! Some dogs of course are just easy to train.

My first question is has this dog been force fetched, which I consider fundamental to teaching a gun dog. And have you worked through basic obedience to where the dog is consistent with heel, down, sit.....? Following all of that the recall, although included in the basic obedience needs to be finalized with any distance and any distraction...it must be 100% or your dog is at risk!

If that all has been done with a conditioning to the e collar included as part of the force fetch? If no force fetch has been done, I would recommend you do that or have a pro do it for you and include the transition to e collar. Then and only then can you start working on a solid recall, as the dog has been conditioned to learn and understand that when he/she feels 'pressure' that none compliance to a command is the cause. Dogs learn that by returning quickly to you, they control the pressure that they experience or no pressure at all....

If your dog is not responding to the collar, something is wrong with the collar...I have a Tri Tronics if I were to use it full power I believe a Grizzly Bear would bend to it! I have had some real tough dogs, some needing a bit more pressure than others....but no one I have ever met using a TT collar had a problem unless the batteries were shot or the charge was low.....or the distance was to far for the type of collar. Many Dogs can take a lot of pressure but, none can take a TT on full power...I would never even consider going higher than 3 out of 12 levels on this collar although, I do change out the batteries every year, whether I need them or not. And I do keep both the collars and transmitter fully charged!

Then starting the normal training sequence using a 30' rope initially and recalling the dog. Any hesitation you will initiate a light amount of pressure then again giving the recall command. Sequence would be "here" seeing hesitation, "here' burn here.....holding the pressure on until the dog gets within 2-3' of you. The dog will quickly learn that by running at you when you call, nothing bad will happen.....then by reinforcing this behavior with love and attention on a good return, you will seldom need the pressure.....

Good Luck

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by setterpoint » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:43 am

i agree somthing not right with the collar not tight enough or its just not working have you tried it out on your hand to see if its working if so dog would have some reaction to it with it set on high i have a 8 moold setter now im teaching whoa mycollar setting is level 3level 5 she yelps it goes to level16 and that would turn her a flip

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by rinker » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:54 pm

I would suggest two things. First of all, there is either something wrong with your ecollar or it just isn't strong enough.

Second, do you have a source for pigeons? When I am running puppies and young dogs, I carry a sack of pigeons. I periodically call to the pup and when I get his attention I toss a pigeon. Within just a few sessions of this, I can spin them on a dime from hundreds of yards away. Several years ago I had a pigeon sack that had a velcro closure. My pups would turn immediately and start towards me, even if they were a couple of hundred yards away, at the sound of velcro opening.

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:19 pm

One of the things I noticed is it sounds like the free time you are giving him is all he gets. I would turn him lose and keep quiet while he runs and gets rid of a lot of pent up energy. When he is getting tired and is coming to you is the time to tell him to come. And then be sure you enforce it. But you need to be honest with the dog and not try to call him back when he has just been given some freedom. Do check your collar but I don't think I would even consider FF on a green 10 month old setter.

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by shags » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:30 pm

Another vote for faulty ecollar. I had a SportDog that was very inconsistent and didn't seem to work at all at 50 feet. I suggest you have someone hold the prongs against his forearm while you test at different distances and levels.

Once you get the ecollar problem figured out, condition your dog to it if he isn't already, and overlay your recall command using the cc and the ecollar; then remove the cc and use just the ecollar. Use the lightest stimulation that gets a response.

I wouldn't let go the cc until you get the ecollar situation straightened out. Every ignored command just digs a deeper hole.

As an aside, are you sure your dog's hearing is 100%? Setters can have issues with varying degrees of deafness. We adopted a setter and her hearing was functional in the house and close by in the yard, but at some distance she had problems hearing us unless the wind was blowing her way or she was in an echo-y type location. My older setters also have lost some hearing over time.

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Taylor_B » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:52 pm

rinker wrote:I would suggest two things. First of all, there is either something wrong with your ecollar or it just isn't strong enough.

Second, do you have a source for pigeons? When I am running puppies and young dogs, I carry a sack of pigeons. I periodically call to the pup and when I get his attention I toss a pigeon. Within just a few sessions of this, I can spin them on a dime from hundreds of yards away. Several years ago I had a pigeon sack that had a velcro closure. My pups would turn immediately and start towards me, even if they were a couple of hundred yards away, at the sound of velcro opening.
Hi Rinker -
We don't have pigeons right now, but we do have quail (however, they're not very hardy).
When you toss a bird to him, is it a pigeon that can take off? Or do you have it harnessed/altered in some way that keeps in grounded?

Thank you!
-Brooke

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Taylor_B » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:57 pm

shags wrote:Another vote for faulty ecollar. I had a SportDog that was very inconsistent and didn't seem to work at all at 50 feet. I suggest you have someone hold the prongs against his forearm while you test at different distances and levels.

Once you get the ecollar problem figured out, condition your dog to it if he isn't already, and overlay your recall command using the cc and the ecollar; then remove the cc and use just the ecollar. Use the lightest stimulation that gets a response.

I wouldn't let go the cc until you get the ecollar situation straightened out. Every ignored command just digs a deeper hole.

As an aside, are you sure your dog's hearing is 100%? Setters can have issues with varying degrees of deafness. We adopted a setter and her hearing was functional in the house and close by in the yard, but at some distance she had problems hearing us unless the wind was blowing her way or she was in an echo-y type location. My older setters also have lost some hearing over time.
Hi Shags
I agree that the e-collar might be faulty or not strong enough for him.
As for his hearing, I've thought the same thing. Did you have your dog diagnosed at a vet for her hearing condition?
And if so, was there any specific test that you requested be done to confirm the diagnosis?
I think we definitely need to invest in an alternative ecollar. The one we had been using was one purchased at a pet store (petsafe brand). The only reason we had opted for that type was because it was easily available, and worked no problem on our much larger dog (we figured it'd be fine on him as he's much smaller). But he's obviously much more stubborn and needs a collar made just for the field.

And brand suggestions that have worked well for you?

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Sharon » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:01 pm

"We don't have pigeons right now, but we do have quail (however, they're not very hardy).
When you toss a bird to him, is it a pigeon that can take off? Or do you have it harnessed/altered in some way that keeps in grounded?"
quote Rinker

Some folks have a pigeon coop where homers come back. Some folks like me , can't have a coop, so keep 6-8 in a cage in the garage - must be used up every week or sooner. They don't come back, but it's cheap training material for a couple months and do the job just fine. Initially it is more effective than harnessing the bird imo.

I agree : test that collar and see Ezzy's post about being fair to the dog initially when released. Train for success.

** Are you sure the e collar correction means " come" to the dog?
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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by welsh » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:08 pm

You say the dog is "not too bad" in the yard. This implies he's not too good, either.

I'd proceed from there.

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:16 pm

To be perfectly frank !
If you are messing about with an e-collar for re-call then You really haven't got re-call and probably never will.
After You have that recall without any collar You can overlay with re-enforcing it with any distractions you wish .
Perhaps a few sessions with a trainer who can explain this further will help more than some of the well intended replies on here .

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Taylor_B » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:57 pm

polmaise wrote:To be perfectly frank !
If you are messing about with an e-collar for re-call then You really haven't got re-call and probably never will.
After You have that recall without any collar You can overlay with re-enforcing it with any distractions you wish .
Perhaps a few sessions with a trainer who can explain this further will help more than some of the well intended replies on here .
Hi Polmaise
The ecollar was implemented after we had success with recall in the house and in the yard.
We started to use it in conjunction with the check cord while we were in the field.
We would do so in the following manner:
-Come command with light pressure applied to check cord (no response from dog)
-Come command with heavier pressure from check cord and tone from ecollar (no response from dog)
-Come command with stimulation from e-collar.

How might you recommend training recall?
I'm just curious because as I've mentioned, my husband and I do this as a hobby. Our dogs will never be "master hunters" don't participate in field trials. We solely hunt with them during the bird season, and lightly train year round.
I welcome your advice on recall training.

We hear alot of advice suggesting we get him into the field on a check cord, so we try to work on commands while we're out there (which include the commands we've been practicing in the house and yard).
Difference is - we get good responses in the house/yard. we get nearly no response in the field. When i say that we get no response, a lot of folks we speak to suggest implementing the e-collar to enforce the command.
But he doesn't acknowledge the e-collar, or the command.
Thoughts?

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:10 pm

There's something wrong with the collar or you need longer points to get through the hair. Try wetting his neck then buckling on the collar and see what happens. :evil: I'd have him on a cc when you do it.

Don't use birds to work on recall. They are two different issues. Get the recall then start adding birds.
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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:57 pm

Taylor_B wrote: Thoughts?
Start here ?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Total-Recall-Pi ... +mattinson

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:13 am

Hi Taylor B. You say the dog responds to recalls in the house and in the yard. Has this been done with the dog wearing the e-collar in the house and yard ? Have you tried using the e-collar to overlay the already established responses to recall in the house and yard ?
If so did the e-collar work in those locations ?

I know very little about e-collars but I ask these questions because I once saw a beaters spaniel that ran away from him time and time again while wearing an e-collar. The owner had somehow managed to make his dog think it was being e-collar corrected for moving towards him ! Is it possible that you have made a similar mistake ?

Bill T.
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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by shags » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:20 am

Taylor,
I've great luck with TriTronics brand. Ditch your pet store one and invest in something reliable. I bought my bad one for the same reasons you bought yours, and it was a waste of money over the long term.
I think your dog will recall well with a few sessions with a decent collar. Right now he's been commanded to recall, ignored you, you used a defective collar so there was no consequence. So he's learned he can get away with disobedience. It's easliy fixable.
If you google deafness in setters you can find out about BAER testing. I didn't have testing done. In my girl's case, it was pretty obvious she suffered hearing loss. She was an angel and very responsive in closer quarters, but just never even acknowleged commands outside at distance, unless conditions were just right. My old dogs didn't respond unless I turned up the volume a lot, and then they would obey very well.

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by rinker » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:57 am

When you toss a bird to him, is it a pigeon that can take off? Or do you have it harnessed/altered in some way that keeps in grounded?

It is a pigeon that can take off. I am actually accomplishing several things at once. First, I am getting the dog to pay attention to me at all times. After a few sessions of this, I have the dog's absolute attention, when I call he is spinning and coming towards me. If I wanted him to come all the way to me, I would just waive the pigeon and not toss it, or toss it after he came all the way to me. I am also exposing the dog to birds and at the same time teaching him that he can not catch them. Lastly, when he starts really chasing the pigeons hard, I wait until he is chasing and pull my training pistol out of my pocket and fire it in the opposite direction, I am exposing him to gun fire.

The dog is coming to me and going with me because he wants to, not because he is being punished for not coming to me. I do eventually enforce recall with an ecollar.

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Taylor_B » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:29 am

shags wrote:Taylor,
I've great luck with TriTronics brand. Ditch your pet store one and invest in something reliable. I bought my bad one for the same reasons you bought yours, and it was a waste of money over the long term.
I think your dog will recall well with a few sessions with a decent collar. Right now he's been commanded to recall, ignored you, you used a defective collar so there was no consequence. So he's learned he can get away with disobedience. It's easliy fixable.
If you google deafness in setters you can find out about BAER testing. I didn't have testing done. In my girl's case, it was pretty obvious she suffered hearing loss. She was an angel and very responsive in closer quarters, but just never even acknowleged commands outside at distance, unless conditions were just right. My old dogs didn't respond unless I turned up the volume a lot, and then they would obey very well.

Thank you Shags.
I'lve heard others say good things about tri-tonics.
I'll take a look into them!!!

I'll also look into the deafness. that being said, I think this is more an issue of stubborn pup. But I do want to make sure that deafness isn't a factor for him.

Thanks again! always appreciate your insight!

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Taylor_B » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:30 am

rinker wrote:When you toss a bird to him, is it a pigeon that can take off? Or do you have it harnessed/altered in some way that keeps in grounded?

It is a pigeon that can take off. I am actually accomplishing several things at once. First, I am getting the dog to pay attention to me at all times. After a few sessions of this, I have the dog's absolute attention, when I call he is spinning and coming towards me. If I wanted him to come all the way to me, I would just waive the pigeon and not toss it, or toss it after he came all the way to me. I am also exposing the dog to birds and at the same time teaching him that he can not catch them. Lastly, when he starts really chasing the pigeons hard, I wait until he is chasing and pull my training pistol out of my pocket and fire it in the opposite direction, I am exposing him to gun fire.

The dog is coming to me and going with me because he wants to, not because he is being punished for not coming to me. I do eventually enforce recall with an ecollar.
Hi Rinker -
Thank you again for the reply.
I like this idea!!

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:32 pm

Make sure the contacts are the right length and that the collar is working.
A dog that's properly CC'd, (with a collar that works mind you), might very well ignore you with or without a distractuon, but not for very long-
HERE*nick*HERE!
And he needs to be making some tracks back to your side.

Might need to get pup back in the yard for some O.B..

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by polmaise » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:36 pm

Taylor_B wrote:
polmaise wrote:To be perfectly frank !
If you are messing about with an e-collar for re-call then You really haven't got re-call and probably never will.
After You have that recall without any collar You can overlay with re-enforcing it with any distractions you wish .
Perhaps a few sessions with a trainer who can explain this further will help more than some of the well intended replies on here .
Hi Polmaise
The ecollar was implemented after we had success with recall in the house and in the yard.
We started to use it in conjunction with the check cord while we were in the field.
We would do so in the following manner:
-Come command with light pressure applied to check cord (no response from dog)
-Come command with heavier pressure from check cord and tone from ecollar (no response from dog)
-Come command with stimulation from e-collar.

How might you recommend training recall?
I'm just curious because as I've mentioned, my husband and I do this as a hobby. Our dogs will never be "master hunters" don't participate in field trials. We solely hunt with them during the bird season, and lightly train year round.
I welcome your advice on recall training.

We hear alot of advice suggesting we get him into the field on a check cord, so we try to work on commands while we're out there (which include the commands we've been practicing in the house and yard).
Difference is - we get good responses in the house/yard. we get nearly no response in the field. When i say that we get no response, a lot of folks we speak to suggest implementing the e-collar to enforce the command.
But he doesn't acknowledge the e-collar, or the command.
Thoughts?
TBH ...You have had numerous replies regarding the e-collar not working or ineffective or wrongly fitted or wrong design /make with no reply other than appreciation for suggestions that suit what you perceive.
So here is my best advice :Copied from a colleague .
‘Come’ is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

At some point in time, usually from around 6 – 10 months, depending on the individual, “Velcro” dog will morph into “Bog off” dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

How and when do I start with a puppy?

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.
By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:
• Come from across the room.
• Come from out of sight
• Come no matter who calls
• Come even if you are busy doing something else
• Come even if you are asleep.
• Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
• Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

• Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
• Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
• If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
• Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
• Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the “value” of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog’s life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

What about an older or rescue dog?

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the day’s food ration up into small bags (between10 – 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying “too bad” and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your “helper” simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it’s getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog’s name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

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ezzy333
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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:52 pm

Robt---great advice from a good post.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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deseeker
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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by deseeker » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:15 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Robt---great advice from a good post.
X2 on Robt post---It's long but take the time to read it all :!: :!:

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by rinker » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:01 am

https://www.facebook.com/AmoConservatio ... 924506176/

I have attempted to paste a link to a video, I hope it works. I should say that this is just the way that I start with puppies in the field. I do eventually do some yard work with a check cord and then overlay an ecollar. I have found that when I start puppies this way, that they tend to want to go with me and pay attention to me for the rest of their lives.

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greg jacobs
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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:39 am

Nice post Robert. I think people in the US, with access to e collars tend to forget the longer process used before e collars. It shows the amount of training and time required for just a recall. Makes me wonder if e collars makes us want the shortcuts and makes e collars forever needed for the life of the dog.
That youtube video really makes me want another pup. I also gun condition at that age instead of waiting till 6 or 9 months, when things scare pups. Then you really have to be carefull. My pup's are always completely gun conditioned by four months.

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Re: Training Consistent Recall on Stubborn Pup

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:36 pm

greg jacobs wrote:Nice post Robert. I think people in the US, with access to e collars tend to forget the longer process used before e collars. It shows the amount of training and time required for just a recall.
Yup! ..and the basic fundamental conditioning required for every discipline before over laying the Collar.
Some are experienced enough to overlay as they progress and some are experienced enough to CC before certain OB stuff . The mass however is not .(imo) ..I'll put myself in that class.
...................
I was personally reminded the other day by one of my own dogs which had her first shooting season completed last Month . ...''The obedience should be completed in the Yard,instead of correcting it in the field'' ...I got a 'No-Go' ! Freeze. Now ,you ain't gonna 'FF' THAT !

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