new to gun dog training. need advice.

citron
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new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by citron » Sun May 01, 2016 11:19 pm

I have read a lot on here, but I still had a few questions, so I decided to register. I will be getting my GSP pup towards the end of May. I would like to avoid e-collars. I don't like them.

I have read a lot of good things about the perfect start/perfect finish dvds. I saw on their site that they had sections in the videos on using e-collars. Are e-collars required for their training program? Is there a good training program that does not use e-collars?

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon May 02, 2016 8:30 am

There is no requirement to use e-collars as you can do everything without them. However, I would encourage you to go someplace where you could get more educated about them. they are a wonderful tool that aids greatly in training and are much gentler on the dog than most any other tool you will use when used properly. And In my opinion, they are simple to use once you are familiar with them. Both you and your dog will be happier that you have one and use it.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by digger » Mon May 02, 2016 4:33 pm

" I don't like them" that is a quick reason not to use something. give some research and accurate advice and you may have a change of heart. Get past sensationalized Shock Collar, electrical shocking, burn them and seeing one miss used . Try one on your arm or hand and see just how little discomfort there is on the low settings you'll likely use. Get some accurate info on the collars and compare it to your other choices you have for corrections at a distance. A totally positive reinforcement training program for a field dog is VERY difficult for an experienced trainer and pretty much a frustrating unicorn for a rookie.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by oldbeek » Mon May 02, 2016 4:43 pm

digger wrote:" I don't like them" that is a quick reason not to use something. give some research and accurate advice and you may have a change of heart. Get past sensationalized Shock Collar, electrical shocking, burn them and seeing one miss used . Try one on your arm or hand and see just how little discomfort there is on the low settings you'll likely use. Get some accurate info on the collars and compare it to your other choices you have for corrections at a distance. A totally positive reinforcement training program for a field dog is VERY difficult for an experienced trainer and pretty much a frustrating unicorn for a rookie.
X-2 well said. I also like a collar with a vibrate button. I use that more than low nick.
Last edited by oldbeek on Tue May 03, 2016 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Sharon » Mon May 02, 2016 4:56 pm

Welcome to the forum.:)

As Ezzy said better than me, e collars are a great tool when used properly. In about 6 months your GSP will probably be out there a couple hundred yards. How do you plan to get him to come when he ignores you? Now he's heading for the highway out of ear shot. What are you going to do now?
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by aulrich » Mon May 02, 2016 4:58 pm

+1 for taking another look, unless you are in a jurisdiction that has gone all progressive and banned them.

They are part of a good OB program along with clicker or other positive training methods.

Gorge Hickox has a puppy program

https://www.georgehickox.com/about_geor ... x_dvd.html

I did not use it but I did use his e-collar program from this pointer disks with roaring success (I am on my first dog ).

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Trekmoor » Mon May 02, 2016 6:02 pm

digger wrote:" I don't like them" that is a quick reason not to use something. give some research and accurate advice and you may have a change of heart. Get past sensationalized Shock Collar, electrical shocking, burn them and seeing one miss used . Try one on your arm or hand and see just how little discomfort there is on the low settings you'll likely use. Get some accurate info on the collars and compare it to your other choices you have for corrections at a distance. A totally positive reinforcement training program for a field dog is VERY difficult for an experienced trainer and pretty much a frustrating unicorn for a rookie.
I agree with the above. I do not use an e-collar as I do not know enough about them and have nobody to show me their proper use. I could experiment a bit but that is very unfair to a dog. In your country many people DO know how to use them correctly ..........I'd at least listen to them before rejecting the collar.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by setterpoint » Mon May 02, 2016 6:39 pm

the e collar is the best tool you have learn all you can about them i think you may have a change of thought about them

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new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by flgundogger » Mon May 02, 2016 6:41 pm

I was in the same boat. Didn't have any desire to use them. But then I did a lot of research and bit the bullet. They are THE tool to have in my opinion. As an amateur I feel it is the best and most clear way to communicate with my dog. And they can be used positively. When I put mine on my GSP she gets excited cause she knows fun stuff is coming!!


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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by gundogguy » Tue May 03, 2016 3:44 am

citron wrote:I have read a lot on here, but I still had a few questions, so I decided to register. I will be getting my GSP pup towards the end of May.
Now let me get this straight! You do not own a dog as of yet. You have been reading some of the threads here on the forum. And you come out with a dislike about equipment used to train dogs with. Where is your breeder on this subject? Why would you not be in conference with your breeder concerning the training and development of this new pup? If you do not care for what the breeder is coaching you on concerning this pup why would you buy the pup in the first place from that breeder. I would find a breeder that you trust and understand before I would approach a group of strangers scattered around the world about likes and dislikes of dog training. Dog training is about "change" and you are going to have to change a great deal if you are going to be any where near successful in developing a dog that is proper for you! Your thinking will change and your activities will change greatly once the pup is acquired. Throw you likes and dislikes out the window and get ready for a great adventure. :D
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Tue May 03, 2016 4:09 am

citron wrote:I have read a lot on here, but I still had a few questions, so I decided to register. I will be getting my GSP pup towards the end of May. I would like to avoid e-collars. I don't like them.

I have read a lot of good things about the perfect start/perfect finish dvds. I saw on their site that they had sections in the videos on using e-collars. Are e-collars required for their training program? Is there a good training program that does not use e-collars?
I reckon this new pup is destined and intended to be a family pet only right ?

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by rinker » Tue May 03, 2016 7:35 am

Dogs were trained for hundreds of years before ecollars were invented and they can still be trained that way today. Most of the modern training programs are going to use modern training tools. You may be able to get some benefit from parts of a modern program but probably not the whole thing because they are going to use electronics at some point.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue May 03, 2016 6:17 pm

rinker wrote:Dogs were trained for hundreds of years before ecollars were invented and they can still be trained that way today. Most of the modern training programs are going to use modern training tools. You may be able to get some benefit from parts of a modern program but probably not the whole thing because they are going to use electronics at some point.
Before ecollars some of the training methods were brutal. They involved shotguns and rock salt, flushing whips and other bad news contraptions. Citron has made up his / her mind so it is a waste of time even trying to have a conversation about it.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by citron » Tue May 03, 2016 7:45 pm

gundogguy wrote:
citron wrote:I have read a lot on here, but I still had a few questions, so I decided to register. I will be getting my GSP pup towards the end of May.
Now let me get this straight! You do not own a dog as of yet. You have been reading some of the threads here on the forum. And you come out with a dislike about equipment used to train dogs with. Where is your breeder on this subject? Why would you not be in conference with your breeder concerning the training and development of this new pup? If you do not care for what the breeder is coaching you on concerning this pup why would you buy the pup in the first place from that breeder. I would find a breeder that you trust and understand before I would approach a group of strangers scattered around the world about likes and dislikes of dog training. Dog training is about "change" and you are going to have to change a great deal if you are going to be any where near successful in developing a dog that is proper for you! Your thinking will change and your activities will change greatly once the pup is acquired. Throw you likes and dislikes out the window and get ready for a great adventure. :D
This will be my first true gun dog, besides a black lab I had that was a family pet. Almost all of my dog experience is with rescue sheperds, mainly border collies. I have trained a few of the border collies. One for agility and one for search and rescue. The main thing I have against e-collars is that most of the people I have seen, their dog only listened when the collar was on. So if they wanted to take the dog for a hike, they had to bring the e-collar. I would prefer to have the dog obey even without the collar. Maybe the people I knew didn't use the e-collar correctly?
polmaise wrote:
citron wrote:I have read a lot on here, but I still had a few questions, so I decided to register. I will be getting my GSP pup towards the end of May. I would like to avoid e-collars. I don't like them.

I have read a lot of good things about the perfect start/perfect finish dvds. I saw on their site that they had sections in the videos on using e-collars. Are e-collars required for their training program? Is there a good training program that does not use e-collars?
I reckon this new pup is destined and intended to be a family pet only right ?
It will be a family pet, but also used for hunting. If all I wanted was a family pet, I would get another free rescue. I did a lot of research on which breed to get that would excel at both functions, and came up with a gsp.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by citron » Tue May 03, 2016 7:59 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
rinker wrote:Dogs were trained for hundreds of years before ecollars were invented and they can still be trained that way today. Most of the modern training programs are going to use modern training tools. You may be able to get some benefit from parts of a modern program but probably not the whole thing because they are going to use electronics at some point.
Before ecollars some of the training methods were brutal. They involved shotguns and rock salt, flushing whips and other bad news contraptions. Citron has made up his / her mind so it is a waste of time even trying to have a conversation about it.
Wow. Please don't write me off without offering anything. If you read the original post you will see that I said that I would like to avoid e-collars. I never said I was dead set against them. That simply means if there is a good training program that doesn't use them, I would like to try that. If there is not a good program, and every program that doesn't use e-colars is barbaric, then I will use e-collars. The point of the thread is to ask if anyone knows of, or has used, a program that doesn't use them. Would you offer a constructive response about this? The written word is poor for feeling, so if this comes off sarcastic, please know that it is not intended that way.

Oh, and I am a man. :)

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue May 03, 2016 8:22 pm

citron wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
rinker wrote:Dogs were trained for hundreds of years before ecollars were invented and they can still be trained that way today. Most of the modern training programs are going to use modern training tools. You may be able to get some benefit from parts of a modern program but probably not the whole thing because they are going to use electronics at some point.
Before ecollars some of the training methods were brutal. They involved shotguns and rock salt, flushing whips and other bad news contraptions. Citron has made up his / her mind so it is a waste of time even trying to have a conversation about it.
Wow. Please don't write me off without offering anything. If you read the original post you will see that I said that I would like to avoid e-collars. I never said I was dead set against them. That simply means if there is a good training program that doesn't use them, I would like to try that. If there is not a good program, and every program that doesn't use e-colars is barbaric, then I will use e-collars. The point of the thread is to ask if anyone knows of, or has used, a program that doesn't use them. Would you offer a constructive response about this? The written word is poor for feeling, so if this comes off sarcastic, please know that it is not intended that way.

Oh, and I am a man. :)
Sorry for my blunt responce sir. I guess I have seen too many people pose a question when they have already formed an opinion. You have reviewed one of the best programs on the market and if you alter it to suit your sense of compassion you and your dog will likely fail in producing a polished hunting partner. Like guns, knives, crow bars etc.. if it is misused the outcome is terrible. In the hands of a knowledgeable / responsible trainer the relationship between the trainer and dog will be strong with mutual respect.

I wish you the best

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by oldbeek » Tue May 03, 2016 9:50 pm

My dog loves her collar. I hold it out in front of her and she pokes her head in. Every thing that is fun is done with the collar on, including walks in the city near dangerous traffic. That is most certainly where the collar should be worn for the dogs own safety. every thing in dog training is learned by repeation. The only time the dog needs to run without the collar is in sanctioned competition. After repeating proper work many times they will do it right without the collar.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by citron » Tue May 03, 2016 11:05 pm

oldbeek wrote:My dog loves her collar. I hold it out in front of her and she pokes her head in. Every thing that is fun is done with the collar on, including walks in the city near dangerous traffic. That is most certainly where the collar should be worn for the dogs own safety. every thing in dog training is learned by repeation. The only time the dog needs to run without the collar is in sanctioned competition. After repeating proper work many times they will do it right without the collar.
Okay. That was my biggest concern with the e-collar. I have seen many people use e-collars and as soon as the collar was off, the dog didn't listen. In fact, my neighbor has to have the e-collar and remote all the time. Any time he is outside with his dog he has to have the remote around his neck, or the dog doesn't listen. I don't want to be tethered to a remote any time I am with my dog. Knowing that the dog will learn to listen eventually without the collar is a good thing. Thanks for the response.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Wed May 04, 2016 1:36 am

citron wrote:The point of the thread is to ask if anyone knows of, or has used, a program that doesn't use them. Would you offer a constructive response about this?
There are many non e-collar approaches available ,from Clicker Training to Cookie reward. When you were doing your research on choosing the breed I'm sure you would have come across them mentioned usually under the headings of 'Positive Only , purely positive or Non aversive training.
Btw, any responsible e-collar program requires the process for the dog to have already learned basic behaviour such as sit,hear,heel before the collar program.
Your choice of breed for hunting has additional factors however ,which will require the dog to be much further away from you than a long line .

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Trekmoor » Wed May 04, 2016 4:24 am

Along with just about everyone else in Britain I train gundogs without using an e-collar. Dogs can be trained to a high standard without an e-collar and without using boots, sticks and fists . I definitely do use physical corrections but those usually consist of taking the dog by the jowls and giving it a hard look and some hard words or ,if I think it is needed, I give the dogs head a shake.

The problem with doing that is that you have to catch the dog first ! An e-collar can do that instantly and at considerable distance. With no e-collar on British dogs the trainers have to think a bit more . In general we go back to square one and begin all over again with the dog MUCH closer to us.

I used to be physically very fit and could and did "run dogs down." If I blew the stop whistle and the dog did not stop I started running to get to the dog at once and it only needed a couple of repetitions of this before a dog accepted that I was not an almost immobile object that it could safely ignore. Now I am not talking about the sort of hunting ranges I sometimes see talked about of 200 yards plus out from me, but if a dog was within 100 yards from me then I'd run to get it ! Most dogs just give in after being caught a couple of times for the effect of getting out there to the dog is more of a mental one than a physical one.

If a dog disobeyed the whistle at really long range then I put down the whistle and did nothing about the disobedience at all........at the time. I went back to training that whistle at much closer ranges then built up the distances again. That is what I do all the time now for I can't run at all now. I can still stop my Brittany when she is a couple of hundred yards out but it took longer and was more difficult to achieve than if I had used a properly trained stop with an e-collar in addition to her "normal" training.

Where the e-collar is concerned I have a similar worry to the O.P. , that is, I'd want to actually work the dog from day to day when it was not wearing the collar. If you lived in Britain you would understand that better. The "culture" here is very anti e-collar. It is rare to see a dog of any kind wearing one and it is likely to be banned soon .......it already is banned in Wales.

We still manage to train and breed some pretty good gundogs without using a collar but we maybe make things more difficult for ourselves .....and that would probably apply to the O.P. too ?

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Vman » Wed May 04, 2016 9:05 am

Citron, you have been given some very solid advice in favor of the Ecollar. One thing nobody has truly touched on is the safety of your dog.
Back in the day you could get a GSP for a couple hundred dollars or cheaper. The days of cheap purebred dogs are long gone. Today you may be paying $1000 or more for a well bred dog. After the first year, if you are totally honest with yourself you could easily have $2000 invested in the dog. That is not counting a trainer. Now lets move over to physical and emotional attachment. Now that you and your family are emotionally attached to the dog, it would be devastating to have him hit by a car, lost,rattlesnake bite, chasing deer, chasing a bird across the road ect. Any one of these incidences that require a vet visit will cost you more than the collar, just to walk through the door.

The Ecollar can save his life and keep him out of trouble, and make training and life in general a whole lot more pleasant for both you and the dog. I look at it as Insurance. Unless the dog is not worth insuring.
I would suggest you listen to those that have been there and done that. But it is your choice in the end. Good Luck!

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Wed May 04, 2016 12:05 pm

Vman wrote:Citron, you have been given some very solid advice in favor of the Ecollar. One thing nobody has truly touched on is the safety of your dog.
Yes You have 'Citron' . But it's only solid advice when the favour is for the dog ?
Safety as mentioned by ''Vman'' could also translate to Safety for others?. Let's say we have a 'sheep chaser' or 'Deer chaser', after this well meaning and well intended ethical stance of training a dog without any e-collar. The answer to the solution would be to 'Trash break it' ! ..Shock/Horror !! ..But that is not what you wanted at the start of this 'pet/combined hunt partner for a few days of the year' .
I would suggest you train a 'Gun Dog' to perform as a 'Gun dog' first ,before any thoughts of which program is either right or wrong for someone who has experience of rescue dogs or collies who have not herded sheep.
Tough to take ?
Tough ! ..I was only ever interested in the young GSP. Call me sentimental :wink:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Sharon » Wed May 04, 2016 4:51 pm

Trekmoor wrote:Along with just about everyone else in Britain I train gundogs without using an e-collar. Dogs can be trained to a high standard without an e-collar and without using boots, sticks and fists . I definitely do use physical corrections but those usually consist of taking the dog by the jowls and giving it a hard look and some hard words or ,if I think it is needed, I give the dogs head a shake.

The problem with doing that is that you have to catch the dog first ! An e-collar can do that instantly and at considerable distance. With no e-collar on British dogs the trainers have to think a bit more . In general we go back to square one and begin all over again with the dog MUCH closer to us.

I used to be physically very fit and could and did "run dogs down." If I blew the stop whistle and the dog did not stop I started running to get to the dog at once and it only needed a couple of repetitions of this before a dog accepted that I was not an almost immobile object that it could safely ignore. Now I am not talking about the sort of hunting ranges I sometimes see talked about of 200 yards plus out from me, but if a dog was within 100 yards from me then I'd run to get it ! Most dogs just give in after being caught a couple of times for the effect of getting out there to the dog is more of a mental one than a physical one.

If a dog disobeyed the whistle at really long range then I put down the whistle and did nothing about the disobedience at all........at the time. I went back to training that whistle at much closer ranges then built up the distances again. That is what I do all the time now for I can't run at all now. I can still stop my Brittany when she is a couple of hundred yards out but it took longer and was more difficult to achieve than if I had used a properly trained stop with an e-collar in addition to her "normal" training.

Where the e-collar is concerned I have a similar worry to the O.P. , that is, I'd want to actually work the dog from day to day when it was not wearing the collar. If you lived in Britain you would understand that better. The "culture" here is very anti e-collar. It is rare to see a dog of any kind wearing one and it is likely to be banned soon .......it already is banned in Wales.

We still manage to train and breed some pretty good gundogs without using a collar but we maybe make things more difficult for ourselves .....and that would probably apply to the O.P. too ?

Bill T.

Good thing you had a spaniel and not a pointer or setter. You wouldn't have run them down. :)
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Trekmoor » Wed May 04, 2016 5:04 pm

:D I ran down labs, brits and g.s.p. 's Sharon. I chose the "arena" then let the dog go and then when it refused to obey the command I went after it....and kept going until I caught it. By then the dog would have forgotten the original place where it was commanded to sit/stop and so had I to some extent but as I said earlier this is not a case of working physically on the dog so I didn't have to take it back to the place of it's disobedience.

What matters is that the dog hears the whistle and knows I will come out there after it should it not obey. Doing that has a surprisingly good mental effect on a dog .........if you keep going until the dog gives in. I used to be able to do that but cannot now.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Sharon » Wed May 04, 2016 5:12 pm

I want a picture. ( You know I'm just kiddin" you)

That's my philosophy too; as long as I can run my dog down I do so ... backyard , house

At about 4+ months I'm using the e collar though.
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by setterpoint » Wed May 04, 2016 8:44 pm

a correction should be within three sec or at least iv been told if i have to correct a dog out at 100 yards the e collar can do that right now. if i have to get my hands on the dog iv lost a lot of time and will the dog know why im getting on him. i can use the collar correct the dog and move on with just a push of a button but remember the dog must first know the command given or he wont know why he was corrected

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by citron » Wed May 04, 2016 10:54 pm

Thanks everyone for the feedback. My plan is to begin with very basic stuff. Sit and come mainly. When the dog is ready to move on, I may use an e-collar. I will need to do more research on it. I have some time before then, I am just trying to get all my ducks in a row.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by TheIndian » Thu May 05, 2016 5:05 pm

Great thread. Learning a lot on my end still.
Since this topic is on e-collars, could someone recommend a good product to use?
Thx
Chris

Better yet...will check the Product Ratings and Reviews section...

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by oldbeek » Thu May 05, 2016 5:38 pm

citron wrote:Thanks everyone for the feedback. My plan is to begin with very basic stuff. Sit and come mainly. When the dog is ready to move on, I may use an e-collar. I will need to do more research on it. I have some time before then, I am just trying to get all my ducks in a row.
Read more training books on pointing dogs. SIT can cause problems with pointing dogs. I do not train sit.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by cjhills » Fri May 06, 2016 6:01 am

oldbeek wrote:
citron wrote:Thanks everyone for the feedback. My plan is to begin with very basic stuff. Sit and come mainly. When the dog is ready to move on, I may use an e-collar. I will need to do more research on it. I have some time before then, I am just trying to get all my ducks in a row.
Read more training books on pointing dogs. SIT can cause problems with pointing dogs. I do not train sit.
If you train the pup to sit only on command, it is not a problem. Training sit with treats can cause issues. Make sure the dog is not training you to give him a treat when he sits. Sitting on point comes from what the dog perceives as too much pressure.
If the pup is a house dog you pretty much need a sit command.
The other thing the OP is right about is that you need to be very careful to make sure you do not train your dog to ignore you unless you follow up the "here" command with the collar. most people just let that happen if they are not competing the dog................Cj

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by ezzy333 » Fri May 06, 2016 8:34 am

As has been noted by a very large group of experienced dog trainers, they do not teach sit because occasionally it causes an unnecessary problem. Personally I have never taught a dog to sit regardless of where it is kept and have never found a need to. If you want the dog to stand still use the whoa command which it needs to know in the home or in the field.
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by cjhills » Fri May 06, 2016 8:53 am

ezzy333 wrote:As has been noted by a very large group of experienced dog trainers, they do not teach sit because occasionally it causes an unnecessary problem. Personally I have never taught a dog to sit regardless of where it is kept and have never found a need to. If you want the dog to stand still use the whoa command which it needs to know in the home or in the field.
The problem with using the whoa command in the house or when you are just out for a walk or whatever, is that if you do not pay absolute attention to the dog he will take a step or two when you are not looking and pretty soon he learns whoa does not mean a lot. It is much easier to keep the dog still when he has his butt on the ground. Personally, I have taught many pointing dogs to sit on command and have never had one sit on point. I never had to teach a dog to sit. Every one I ever had knew how to sit in the whelping box. I have seen dogs sit on point occasionally and it is always caused by what the dog thinks is to much pressure ,Some hunting lodges require their guides dogs know sit on command so they are not jumping on clients and their vehicles. I also lie the dog to associate whoa with field work................ Cj

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Fri May 06, 2016 11:22 am

oldbeek wrote:
citron wrote:Thanks everyone for the feedback. My plan is to begin with very basic stuff. Sit and come mainly. When the dog is ready to move on, I may use an e-collar. I will need to do more research on it. I have some time before then, I am just trying to get all my ducks in a row.
Read more training books on pointing dogs. SIT can cause problems with pointing dogs. I do not train sit.
You can train them to 'rollover' ! ..They know the difference :wink:
The trainer that thinks the dog will relate this to any field work should perhaps start to train dogs. :roll:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Fri May 06, 2016 6:55 pm

polmaise wrote:
oldbeek wrote:
citron wrote:Thanks everyone for the feedback. My plan is to begin with very basic stuff. Sit and come mainly. When the dog is ready to move on, I may use an e-collar. I will need to do more research on it. I have some time before then, I am just trying to get all my ducks in a row.
Read more training books on pointing dogs. SIT can cause problems with pointing dogs. I do not train sit.
You can train them to 'rollover' ! ..They know the difference :wink:
The trainer that thinks the dog will relate this to any field work should perhaps start to train dogs. :roll:
I disagree. The sit response is NOT desirable in a pointing dog. It is, in my opinion, STUPID to teach a pointing dog to sit, especially if the sit command is taught before the dog is well schooled and solid in proper pointing style.

The reason is that dogs react to pressure by finding a 'safe" place. There are many dogs that will "naturally" crouch down or sit in response to pressure.

If the dog is taught to sit and it becomes a "safe" place for that dog...the normal and natural response for the dog will be to drop or sit, when it should be standing and pointing.

An experienced trainer can do amazing things with a dog. But the new trainer cannot and will not be able to do most of those things , at least not right away. It is far more important for the new trainer to do things that have a high probablilty of getting them and their dog to the training level they desire...while avoiding doing things that have a high probability of screwing things up, if they are not done correctly.

I taught my very first dog to sit. Never had a problem with that dog, but then I could take the head off a pheasant, ten feet in front of that dog and he wouldn't even bat an eye. I have not taught one of my dogs to sit in over fifty years. I have actively discouraged my dogs from sitting during the course of training. I do not ask for trouble.


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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by cjhills » Fri May 06, 2016 9:38 pm

Thanks, RG. Guess I'm just stupid, because I teach every dog I have to sit on command. I think it is just stupid to think you can use the "whoa" command in every situation on a house dog and expect it to have much of a whoa. Especially if you are a beginner or dealing with other family members. The only reason dogs go to their default safe place is to avoid to much pressure. That proves my point............................Cj

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Trekmoor » Sat May 07, 2016 3:39 am

RayGubernat wrote:
The reason is that dogs react to pressure by finding a 'safe" place. There are many dogs that will "naturally" crouch down or sit in response to pressure.

If the dog is taught to sit and it becomes a "safe" place for that dog...the normal and natural response for the dog will be to drop or sit, when it should be standing and pointing.



RayG
While the above is true it is surely up to the trainer to ensure the dog does not need to "find a safe place" while it is on point ? If a dog is not "corrected" while on point and nothing is done by the trainer that the dog perceives as a correction then it will not sit even if it has been taught to.
The golden rule for pointing dogs is to never correct a dog "in the presence of game." Break that rule and a dog might sit or it might even blink birds.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Sat May 07, 2016 6:03 am

Trekmoor wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
The reason is that dogs react to pressure by finding a 'safe" place. There are many dogs that will "naturally" crouch down or sit in response to pressure.

If the dog is taught to sit and it becomes a "safe" place for that dog...the normal and natural response for the dog will be to drop or sit, when it should be standing and pointing.



RayG
While the above is true it is surely up to the trainer to ensure the dog does not need to "find a safe place" while it is on point ? If a dog is not "corrected" while on point and nothing is done by the trainer that the dog perceives as a correction then it will not sit even if it has been taught to.
The golden rule for pointing dogs is to never correct a dog "in the presence of game." Break that rule and a dog might sit or it might even blink birds.

Bill T.
Bill - There are times when even the "golden rule" needs to be put aside. What if the dog roads in , or chases? I for one, do not allow that, especially in a young dog. I do not want bad habits to be ingrained and stop a bad practice just as soon as I can. I may train around it, provide alternate avenues for response or just stop it...depending on the dog. There is no BEST way for every dog, but there is a best way for an individual dog.

When you are training a dog...there will ALWAYS be pressure. When you are getting a dog steady to wing(or wing and shot, or wing and shot and fall) it is common to use a checkcord. THAT is pressure. Add a prong or pinch collar and that is DEFINITELY pressure. And Yes that is around birds, at least the way I do it.

I have no problem teaching a dog to sit. I have no problem with some one else teaching a dog to sit.

But it is an unnecessary risk, especially for a young dog that is still learning the proper way to hunt for us. It also places an unnecessary burden on an inexperienced trainer. Such a trainer has enough things to worry about without getting into things that can put them in a problem with their dog. I personally would much rather have a bird dog stop on command and when it is stopped its head is up...ears cocked, paying close attention and its tail is erect. THAT is what I train toward, because I like the way it looks and it cannot get me into trouble. FWIW, I would not recommend that course of action to a new trainer either.

If one really wants to teach a bird dog to sit, lie down, or whatever... I believe the prudent thing would be to wait.until the dog is a fairly well trained and bold and confident in its pointing ability and style when pointing game.

Perhaps we should remember that the OP's opening statement was "New to the game'". As I said before... a skilled, experienced trainer can do amazing things with a dog. But they don't usually start out that way. Skill and expereince takes some time.

RayG

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Trekmoor » Sat May 07, 2016 7:01 am

Hi Ray, I see what you are getting at and I agree it must all be a bit bewildering for beginners.

I train pointing dogs with no collars of any kind on them and .....usually.....with no checkcord attached. When I use that cord it isn't to "hold" the dog on the point ,if it gets used at all it is to prevent a chase after I have commanded the flush.

This is where our two countries differ. I never correct a point in any way, I don't even "style" dogs as they point.
I DO correct a dog if it chases a bird following a commanded flush ..........the point has already been "broken" anyway and the flush is a different thing in a dogs mind. I train dogs to stop to flush and I would want one of my dogs to either stop/stand or to stop/sit. I normally begin by teaching the dog to stop/sit as it means the dog has to actively break off from any further forward motion as it watches the bird fly away.

As time goes by and as the dog becomes experienced I allow the dog just to stop/stand.

Should a dog break it's own point and self-flush a bird and chase it then if it was a pup just starting to point I'd let the pup chase. I'd let the birds teach/correct the pup for chasing because they never catch the birds.
If an adult already trained dog broke point and chased I certainly would correct it ! But that dog still would not have been corrected while it remained on point.

I've just read that back to myself. :roll: I'm not explaining this well at all so it's a good job I know what I mean ! :roll:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by ezzy333 » Sat May 07, 2016 7:11 am

I agree with Ray. Why teach something that has proven to be a problem for some when it is not necessary? I have never found a need to teach a dog to sit. My dogs stand as well as sit and as CJ pointed out the sit command is taught to make the dog stay down or just to stay put and that has never been a problem that other commands do not cover. I always use stop instead of no, whoa in the field, stay in the yard or house, and down where ever needed. I just have never found a need for a dog to sit so I try to direct a command towards the actual problem. Just my way of avoiding a potential problem.
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Sat May 07, 2016 7:16 am

While you 'experts' discuss the tangents of sit or the philosophy of pointing dogs ,our good friend 'citron' will have that puppy on a lap with a bag of cookies in no time :)
It has much to teach it's new owners about the requirements of the breed and a long time I reckon before it's next to game of any kind ,so basic sit,heel, here will be on this agenda :mrgreen:
citron wrote:Thanks everyone for the feedback. My plan is to begin with very basic stuff. Sit and come mainly. When the dog is ready to move on, I may use an e-collar. I will need to do more research on it. I have some time before then, I am just trying to get all my ducks in a row.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Sat May 07, 2016 2:26 pm

Trekmoor wrote:Hi Ray, I see what you are getting at and I agree it must all be a bit bewildering for beginners.

I train pointing dogs with no collars of any kind on them and .....usually.....with no checkcord attached. When I use that cord it isn't to "hold" the dog on the point ,if it gets used at all it is to prevent a chase after I have commanded the flush.

This is where our two countries differ. I never correct a point in any way, I don't even "style" dogs as they point.
I DO correct a dog if it chases a bird following a commanded flush ..........the point has already been "broken" anyway and the flush is a different thing in a dogs mind. I train dogs to stop to flush and I would want one of my dogs to either stop/stand or to stop/sit. I normally begin by teaching the dog to stop/sit as it means the dog has to actively break off from any further forward motion as it watches the bird fly away.

As time goes by and as the dog becomes experienced I allow the dog just to stop/stand.

Should a dog break it's own point and self-flush a bird and chase it then if it was a pup just starting to point I'd let the pup chase. I'd let the birds teach/correct the pup for chasing because they never catch the birds.
If an adult already trained dog broke point and chased I certainly would correct it ! But that dog still would not have been corrected while it remained on point.

I've just read that back to myself. :roll: I'm not explaining this well at all so it's a good job I know what I mean ! :roll:

Bill T.
Bill -

You might be surprised at how similar our thought processes regarding training might be. I do a whole lot of obedience training in the yard with emphasis on heel/whoa training when they are pups. That conditions the dog, from an early age, to stop and stand until release the dog. I too will correct AFTER the dog has broken point, not because it broke point, but because it disobeyed an obedience command.

But as I said, it is difficult enough for a new trainer to stay on the path with the basics.

RayG

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Sat May 07, 2016 2:33 pm

polmaise wrote:While you 'experts' discuss the tangents of sit or the philosophy of pointing dogs ,our good friend 'citron' will have that puppy on a lap with a bag of cookies in no time :)
It has much to teach it's new owners about the requirements of the breed and a long time I reckon before it's next to game of any kind ,so basic sit,heel, here will be on this agenda :mrgreen:
citron wrote:Thanks everyone for the feedback. My plan is to begin with very basic stuff. Sit and come mainly. When the dog is ready to move on, I may use an e-collar. I will need to do more research on it. I have some time before then, I am just trying to get all my ducks in a row.

Polonaise -

Thank you for the compliment, but I am far from an "expert". Or was that your attempt at sarcasm? :lol: :lol:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Sat May 07, 2016 2:40 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Polonaise -

Thank you for the compliment, but I am far from an "expert". Or was that your attempt at sarcasm? :lol: :lol:

RayG
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Not at all ! .anyone that knows me ,knows I rarely give compliments nor sarcasm unless warranted. :wink:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Griffonpoint » Tue May 10, 2016 9:34 pm

You don't have to use an e-collar if you don't want to. But to make your life easier, select a dog from a breeding program where the breeder trains their dogs to be steady without them. If the breeder is successful at training dogs from their breeding program to be steady in a way that you envision hunting with your dog, without the use of e collars or worse, then you have a better chance of being able to do the same. Any good breeder will invite you out to shoot over their dogs. If you like what you see, you not only have a puppy, but also a mentor familiar with your dog who can help you to train it.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Sun May 15, 2016 7:43 am

OP, I don't care whether you teach the dog to sit or not. My family has flushing spaniels and just about the only command they are taught is to sit, so who am I to say no to the sit.

I suggest that you invest in a good collar and read the directions and keep it charged. You don't have to ever use it, but if you need it, it takes too long to order one on line and wait for it to arrive.

My collar beeps and none of my dogs have ever received more than one shock. After that, the beep reminds them that I really can reach them way out there. (With one exception. I have a real knot head and he received three shocks before he gave in, but now he works just fine with the beep). You do not have to hurt the dog to get compliance.

Get a solid recall. Then work out in the open with a check cord. If you train well and the dog is really solid, you might never need the shock collar. I've hunted with 4 different breeds of sight hound and I could call any of them off of live game in the middle of a hot chase and none of those dogs ever wore a shock collar. I've got to tell you, though, it was a lot of really hard work to get them that reliable. If I can train a sight hound to come every time, there is no reason that you can't train a gun dog to come every time. It sure beats running a dog down and dragging them back if you can just beep them and remind them that you can still reach them.

My family spaniels, the English Springer never had the e collar on because he never refused a command. The Welsh Springer would flip you off if she thought you couldn't catch her, so she wore it a couple of times, and also had someone run out and drag her back a couple of times, and neither one of those dogs wore the collar when they hunted. Springers work close and they are softer than most of the pointers so it isn't as much work to chase them down if they disobey than it would be with one of the pointers who are faster and work out further.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Sun May 15, 2016 7:52 am

polmaise wrote:......... have that puppy on a lap with a bag of cookies in no time ...........
Hey! Every dog I've ever owned has sat in my lap with a bag of cookies and they all work their job just fine. (except for the current knot head who wants to use the back of the sofa as a launch pad and thus has been forbidden to be on the furniture) The dogs can tell the difference between leisure time and time to work.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Sun May 15, 2016 12:54 pm

oregon woodsmoke wrote: I've hunted with 4 different breeds of sight hound and I could call any of them off of live game in the middle of a hot chase and none of those dogs ever wore a shock collar.
Would love to see a video of that with a Greyhound,whippet or even a Saluki .
Of 'course' having trained dogs for the 'Waterloo cup' I'm usually 'Not stopping' them.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu May 19, 2016 5:28 pm

Wow, this whole "sit" debate really took off. It seems like CJ and Ray both are trying to make life easier for the trainer but disagree on how... I'm not nearly as experienced as them, but I have some thoughts (full disclosure: I never taught my EP to sit, and I won't). Around the house and in the kennel or whenever I mean "stay here" but I don't mean "whoa" I tell my EP "wait!" I consider it a soft command, or one, that if broken, is less of an infraction than a hard command like "heel" or "come." Like a misdemeanor rather than a felony. So far it has worked for me.
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Rik » Fri May 27, 2016 5:09 pm

Wow! A simple question raised a host of issues, opinions and recommendations. Here is another recommendation: Get George Hickox and/or John Hann's pointing dog training DVDs, watch them carefully and decide for yourself regarding the use of clickers, stimulation, vibration, tone, whoa, sit etc.

I have two Setters that are now 12 years old both Field Champions, I trained them both following Hickox's method to the letter never saw the dogs in any pain and /or fear of the stimulation. They wear their collars any time they are off leash. Since their 2nd year I have used stimulation only twice, to keep them out a road at 1,000 yards. They obey whistle, hand and voice commands, all made easy because of their initial training using stimulation. Since one of the dogs is losing his hearing, I am retraining him using vibration on the same collar. I am about to acquire two pups and I will use Hickox's newest methods to train them using less stimulation, clicker training and increased positive reinforcement ( food).

I went to a Perfect Kennel seminar a few years ago and really liked it. But I think I can train my dogs with fewer birds with Hickox.

Good luck with whatever you end up doing.......PS if you have access to wild birds and land, after you train recall dogs will train themselves on birds. ( See Ben O. Williams)

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Soarer31 » Tue May 31, 2016 9:30 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I agree with Ray. Why teach something that has proven to be a problem for some when it is not necessary? I have never found a need to teach a dog to sit. My dogs stand as well as sit and as CJ pointed out the sit command is taught to make the dog stay down or just to stay put and that has never been a problem that other commands do not cover. I always use stop instead of no, whoa in the field, stay in the yard or house, and down where ever needed. I just have never found a need for a dog to sit so I try to direct a command towards the actual problem. Just my way of avoiding a potential problem.
Proven?? Where??
""Not teaching a dog to sit cause there's a chance that it will sit on point""
Geez...heard some beauties before but this takes the cake!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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