new to gun dog training. need advice.

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ezzy333
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by ezzy333 » Tue May 31, 2016 10:55 pm

Don't have a cake but have run into the problem with several dogs brought in for training.
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:36 am

Soarer31 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I agree with Ray. Why teach something that has proven to be a problem for some when it is not necessary? I have never found a need to teach a dog to sit. My dogs stand as well as sit and as CJ pointed out the sit command is taught to make the dog stay down or just to stay put and that has never been a problem that other commands do not cover. I always use stop instead of no, whoa in the field, stay in the yard or house, and down where ever needed. I just have never found a need for a dog to sit so I try to direct a command towards the actual problem. Just my way of avoiding a potential problem.
Proven?? Where??
""Not teaching a dog to sit cause there's a chance that it will sit on point""
Geez...heard some beauties before but this takes the cake!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I am sorry that you have a problem with facts that you do not agree with. You have lots of company.

The FACT is that some dogs will sit in response to pressure and that those same dogs will often crouch, lay down or sit on point in response to perceived pressure. If you teach sit as a "safe" place and "safe" response, the dog will want to go to that safe place when it perceives pressure.

For many dogs... prey drive and desire to kill something overpowers most everything else. But some dogs are softer in temperament and have a great deal of desire to please and may get confused... and want to sit to be sure they don't do something wrong. Why take the chance?

To me...to deliberately train in a manner that can cause you problems is deliberately setting a dog up to fail and is not particularly wise.

If one MUST teach sit... and does so AFTER the dog is well indoctrinated in its primary task of finding and pointing birds, that should cause no training issues.

RayG

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Soarer31 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:28 pm

I got no problem with FACTS
Any dog under hard pressure will crouch, loom lay on its belly regardless if it's trained to sit or not
And what's this ""safe place"" you on about?
The sit command is no different to;
Whoe,
Come,
Stay
Heel
Fetch
Roll over and play dead

And what pressure do you apply on a dog on point anyway !?
Applying pressure on a dog pointing ....is a recipe for disaster

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:14 pm

Soarer31 wrote:I got no problem with FACTS
Any dog under hard pressure will crouch, loom lay on its belly regardless if it's trained to sit or not
And what's this ""safe place"" you on about?
The sit command is no different to;
Whoe,
Come,
Stay
Heel
Fetch
Roll over and play dead

And what pressure do you apply on a dog on point anyway !?
Applying pressure on a dog pointing ....is a recipe for disaster
If you want to argue the fact we can do that but it won't change a thing or you can learn from someone else's experience. No one is saying it will happen with every dog but it does happen quite often with pups that have been through obedience training as puppies. It is just something that is easier to avoid than to cure.
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:40 pm

Soarer31 wrote:I got no problem with FACTS
Any dog under hard pressure will crouch, loom lay on its belly regardless if it's trained to sit or not
And what's this ""safe place"" you on about?
The sit command is no different to;
Whoe,
Come,
Stay
Heel
Fetch
Roll over and play dead

And what pressure do you apply on a dog on point anyway !?
Applying pressure on a dog pointing ....is a recipe for disaster

Soarer:

Nice try. But I won't let you turn this one around. Teaching a young bird dog to sit is a needless risk. Period... end of story. That is the fact of the matter.

Your continuing refusal to deal with the reality of it reminds me of the old saw: You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.

Stay thirsty , my friend.

RayG

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Sharon » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:07 pm

[quote="Soarer31""Not teaching a dog to sit cause there's a chance that it will sit on point""
Geez...heard some beauties before but this takes the cake!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote]
....................


It has been traditionally believed that you don't teach a pointing breed to sit. I have no idea if it really matters when it comes to training- I've never found it to be a problem- but many pointing breed trainers never teach sit.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Soarer31 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:55 pm

Bingo ...."", traditionally "
""Pointers don't like water""
""Pointers don't like to retrieve ""
All wives tales Ray....

Example;
Say only you trained a pointer to heel( nothing else)
So by your way of thinking .... the dog will come to heel if under perceived pressure while on point?????
Now that's funny :lol:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Soignie » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:36 am

I have had the good fortune to hang out with and work dogs with many of the top field trial trainers (pointers/setters/shorthairs and britts) for the last 50 years and I have never known one of those gents to teach a dog to sit. The rationale being that it was foolish to teach a dog to do something that MAY present a problem down the road. Will every dog sit on point? NO. Will some dogs sit on point? YES. If you have never seen a dog sit on point then my guess is you haven't seen many dogs developed and worked. If you don't care that your dog MAY sit on point then go ahead and teach the command, IF you do care then why teach them a command that MAY cause a problem down the road. I trained my very first dog, a Brittany, to sit but that was before I met and learned from the very best in the country, I asked myself then "if the best don't do it then why should I"?

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:03 pm

Soarer31 wrote:Bingo ...."", traditionally "
""Pointers don't like water""
""Pointers don't like to retrieve ""
All wives tales Ray....

Example;
Say only you trained a pointer to heel( nothing else)
So by your way of thinking .... the dog will come to heel if under perceived pressure while on point?????
Now that's funny :lol:

Soarer -

You must want to work for the Washington establishment. Your spin doctor efforts are relentless, but they need work.

Still no sale... and the FACT still remains that it is unwise to teach a young bird dog to sit. You can spin like a top and that won't change.

Oh and I don't generally do hypotheticals. However, I DO use the Paul Long method to teach a dog to heel and to whoa in the yard and YES... I have SEEN dogs want to come to heel, that have been put on a whoa. I have SEEN dogs that have been corrected(e-collar) for breaking and chasing, come directly to heel.

If you teach a dog that a certain behavior is a "safe" place...that is where it will tend to go when it perceives pressure.

You are wrong, and you are being obstinate about it. You re making yourself look the fool, but that is your choice. Carry on.

RayG

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by houghtonic » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:22 pm

I wouldn't try to argue the position that teaching a pointing dog to sit could cause problems. I believe it could and others have described seeing it happen. I'm curious if the guys that want to use their dogs on both upland and waterfowl don't then take that risk and teach their dogs to sit. Sit on a stand or in the blind is a needed command in my opinion for waterfowl. Sit was probably the first OB command I gave my GSP and my PP. I later taught whoa. I'm a newbie, so I would teach whoa first had I to do it over again, but I still would teach sit for waterfowl hunting after the dog had a solid understanding of whoa.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:54 pm

without ruffling the feathers of the cock birds fighting .
...........
Enlighten someone who knows little about dogs and especially years of experience of dogs in the shooting field.
What command do you give to make the dog 'Point' ? .Assuming on the same grounds that when one gives a command 'sit' for the dog to sit ?
Whoa (btw) is not 'point' :wink: , neither is 'stay' :wink:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:11 pm

polmaise wrote:without ruffling the feathers of the cock birds fighting .
...........
Enlighten someone who knows little about dogs and especially years of experience of dogs in the shooting field.
What command do you give to make the dog 'Point' ? .Assuming on the same grounds that when one gives a command 'sit' for the dog to sit ?
Whoa (btw) is not 'point' :wink: , neither is 'stay' :wink:
You can make a dog "stand" but you can't make them point. There is a HUGE difference between the two. I think you know that, but.... :wink: :wink:

A dog that is truly "on point" is in an almost catatonic state. The scent/sight of the bird apparently releases drug-like substances( endorphins??) that deepen the intensity of the response. If you look at the dog's eyes, you will see two lasers...burning their way to the source of the scent.

Only the scent/sight of game can do that, as far as I know. But I am willing to be enlightened. :wink: :wink:

RayG

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Soarer31 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:49 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Soarer31 wrote:Bingo ...."", traditionally "
""Pointers don't like water""
""Pointers don't like to retrieve ""
All wives tales Ray....

Example;
Say only you trained a pointer to heel( nothing else)
So by your way of thinking .... the dog will come to heel if under perceived pressure while on point?????
Now that's funny :lol:

Soarer -

You must want to work for the Washington establishment. Your spin doctor efforts are relentless, but they need work.

Still no sale... and the FACT still remains that it is unwise to teach a young bird dog to sit. You can spin like a top and that won't change.

Oh and I don't generally do hypotheticals. However, I DO use the Paul Long method to teach a dog to heel and to whoa in the yard and YES... I have SEEN dogs want to come to heel, that have been put on a whoa. I have SEEN dogs that have been corrected(e-collar) for breaking and chasing, come directly to heel.

If you teach a dog that a certain behavior is a "safe" place...that is where it will tend to go when it perceives pressure.

You are wrong, and you are being obstinate about it. You re making yourself look the fool, but that is your choice. Carry on.

RayG
The only ""spinning "" going on here is you ray...
You said FACTS ... Now show me
Prove to me and everyone on on here ... That a dog siting on point is directly attributed to the sit command

I would say that most if not all Pointing dog field trialers in the UK, Europe,S.Africa,Australia ,NewZealand train the sit command for the ""sit to WSF....meaning...;
Dog points...then to flush on command...then to sit immediately on the Wing,Shot,Fall...then commanded to retrieve to hand
But hey ..what the heck do they know anyway!


As for been a ""fool"" ...well I'll let that one go to the catcher

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:53 am

Soarer,

Tell us all again why you are arguing with with a fact that many of us have encountered on occasion? Always seems strange that anyone would tell a group of experienced people what the have seen didn't really happen. And even more when everyone says it only happens occasionally and probably relates more about when and how it was taught than just teaching it. And why are you so concerned with teaching something that MAY cause a problem? I am sure there is not a single one of us care how you want to train your dog but rather just offered advice to a new member who asked for help. I admit I am at a loss to explain what it is you are trying to accomplish. Please help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:22 am

Soarer -

I am incredibly fortunate to be geographically close to some of the very best and most successful field trial trainers and handlers in the USA. I have had the opportunity to have watched their dogs both in training and in competition, have asked questions and (hopefully) have learned a few things along the way. I also get to compete with dogs they have trained on a fairly regular basis, because many of those same dogs are handled in amateur stakes by their amateur owners. I generally get my clock cleaned... but my dogs and I have had our moments.

I have learned that if you want to be competitive with the best, you learn what they do, how they do it and try to do it as well as they do. Occasionally, my dogs and I do actually rise to the challenge.

To the best of my knowledge....NONE of the pros I know teach their bird dogs to sit.

I cannot speak to what is done elsewhere, but it is my understanding that European bird dogs would not be competitive in US bird dog trials any more than US bird dogs would be competitive in European bird dog trials. It is my understanding that the expectations are different and in a very real sense, the dogs are different as well.

After all, they have been selectively bred on each side of the pond to excel at very different types of hunting and competitions, for over 100 years.

RayG

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:18 pm

RayGubernat wrote: After all, they have been selectively bred on each side of the pond to excel at very different types of hunting and competitions, for over 100 years.

RayG
Vive la difference'
Always it's a cultural struggle and or a previous background for a 'new to gun dog training' and 'need advice' topic to gain the right or valuable response that was first posted .
If one was to 'only' look at the topic heading with the mindset that the poster is actually saying he/she doesn't have a clue what to do ,they may include in the post a specific that they may be finding challenging at that time but that shouldn't be seen as the 'be all and end all' (imo) .The post heading says it all. So ,when experienced 'posters' reply this can and often causes much confusion for the 'New to Gun Dog Training' folk ?..
Irrespective of which side of the pond these 'experts' are ,the red herrings can be confusing for the fish that looks for the bright bait or the best lure that is used getting ribbons .

I use my 'learned friend's quote' , (Nothing personal Ray,just apt for the post :wink: ) , If the dogs that have excelled have been selectively bred on each side of the pond to do what each want/aspire/or achieve ,then why are there so many that fail,on both sides of the pond and everywhere else in the world ? ? ..just saying . :wink:
When two or more 'dog trainers' discuss what is right or wrong in the way someone should or should not do something ,the dog is usually the last one to figure it out !

The 'Myriad' of advice on either forums or internet must be hugely comforting for someone 'New to gun dog Training' !and who seeks advice at the touch of a button !

No matter where you are or what level you are individually at with your dog their will always be someone who has either been there or has yet to be there.You however are where you are (That's me and every other member on this forum including admins and 'experienced posters' ) .

Best advice is 'Go local' :wink: ...
Hunt with a hunter if you want to hunt,and suck up to the best who have ribbons and you will also (that's not a criticism it's reality) ,play the game you want to play and know all the rules in that game (this will require a mentor ! .what mentor you pick is your decision )..If it goes 'tits up' ...then you have learned a great deal (imo) .

ps. It doesn't matter what breed you own or what it's lineage is or what country it is either in now or where it came from originally . What does matter is what you do with it (no matter who's programme or suggestions) :wink: It helps immensely if it comes from a line that has proved it's 'train ability' !! ..(Ray) but has no guarantee that it will ever ,ever,ever, be like it's Sire or Dam !! ..over the 40 years that I personally know of ! ..unless some one 'real good' ;) can tell me that a FTCH XFTCH will absolutely produce a FTCH :wink: .. ...Name the price and I'll be their . 'tout sweet' 8)

As an 'aside' for the OP , SEE how this similar one pans out ?
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums ... et-started

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by shags » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:34 pm

Soarer,

In American pointing dog field trials, a dog that sits while working would get the hook immediately. It's a major fault and isn't tolerated at all. So few if any trial dogs are taught to sit, since as Ray has explained, a dog might default to sit under pressure. Who knows when, why, or where a dog might perceive pressure, so better not to take a chance. For our personal gun dogs, the sit may or may nor be taught by the owner for his convenience but for a lot of them, the no sit tradition carries over, too.

It isn't proof positive, but I can attest to having seen dogs sit or lie down at various times during birdwork. I've also seen a couple go to heel. Maybe they had inappropriate corrections, maybe they weren't right in the head, IDK, but it's not pretty and not acceptable in a performance pointing dog here.

If you're so inclined, check out some of the youtube videos by skydance kennels. They're well done and some of them show how our dogs are expected to stand through the handler's ( sometimes extended) flush.

I'd sign off with High Tails and Happy trialing, but the high tail thing is not something youse guys across the pond go for either :lol:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:39 pm

shags wrote:Soarer,
I'd sign off with High Tails and Happy trialing, but the high tail thing is not something youse guys across the pond go for either :lol:
citron wrote:I have read a lot on here, but I still had a few questions, so I decided to register. I will be getting my GSP pup towards the end of May. I would like to avoid e-collars. I don't like them.

I have read a lot of good things about the perfect start/perfect finish dvds. I saw on their site that they had sections in the videos on using e-collars. Are e-collars required for their training program? Is there a good training program that does not use e-collars?
I would say ,whatever rocks you're boat :wink:
But the OP, may have a different paddle and a different canoe ? :wink: ..it so happens they are on 'Your' side of the pond . :)

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Soarer31 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:48 pm

Agree..
You don't teach the sit command cause there's no use for it in your trials...

Any dog sitting on point in any trial anywhere will get hooked

So in countries where the vast majority train the ""sit"" would be more prevalent with dogs sitting on point??...if that's the case there would be a lot of washouts

In the last 40 yrs I've been hunting I've only seen that once and that dog was a x breed

To simply suggest (saying as fact) that a dog sitting on point is caused by the the sit command doesn't hold water in my book ...the problem lies else where

Don't much care if The Illuminati on here agree with me or not

If a rookie asks me if they should teach the sit command ...I'd say go for it

And who's arguing EZzy!
Just debating mate

Cheers

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by shags » Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:27 am

Soarer,
The difference is that your (Euro) dogs aren't trained sit as the default behavior; seems like it's more like our whoa...a command to be complied with in the heat of the moment. Here, sit is used mainly as a manners command, and a dog might default to it because that's his "Now I won't get into trouble" position. (And before all you spaniel and retriever guys go postal on me, remember we're talking about pointy dogs here :lol: )

Hope this helps. Now go sit :lol:

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:17 am

I have never seen a dog sit while on point either in trials or out working. I have seen a pointing dog sit if the bird flushes as the handler/hunter approaches the point but the dog is correct to do so since it is then sitting to flush.

I don't train dogs to sit while on point so they don't do that and I don't correct or style dogs while they point so they don't sit because they feel a bit pressurised either. In America you have different ways of training and different end product requirements so just do what you think is best.

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Re: new to gun dog training. need advice.

Post by RoostersMom » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:44 pm

Jon uses e-collars for training (Perfection Kennel). This weekend, he told the story of a client at the clinic in Alaska that didn't want to use an e-collar on her dog. She was clearly frustrated by the 3rd day of the clinic when every other dog was standing his birds and understood the meaning of the word "whoa." She walked up to him and said - "give me a collar."

If you learn how to properly use an e-collar, it can be MUCH less confusing to the dog than not using one. Consistency is the key - and proper timing. Using an e-collar correctly provides immediate, non-confusing feedback to the dog. You don't use a "tone of voice" or say/do anything that the dog has a chance to "misunderstand."

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