Examples of "pressure"

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MJB64
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Examples of "pressure"

Post by MJB64 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:23 pm

In another thread there is a lot of talk about pointing dogs sitting down as a default when they perceive pressure. I have never owned a pointing dog, so this question is just out of curiosity. What are some examples of pressure that a dog might be receiving in the field? I can understand pressure in the yard or on the table, but where is the pressure in the field? I am definitely NOT trying to stir the pot. Just wondering.

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:47 pm

Here is one of many ..But then it depends on what you're understanding of 'pressure' for a dog is ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by Sharon » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:22 pm

Excessive "hacking " (including excessive use of an e collar), at the dog will be perceived as pressure by the dog. It will uncertain as to whether it is to come -go-stay .............It will start to stay closer to you which is not what you want.
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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by shags » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:22 pm

There are all kinds and infinite degrees of pressure. Any time you ask your dog to do something contrary to what he has in mind, it's pressure. Corrections are pressure. Pen-raised birds walking around in front of your dog is pressure. So is a bracemate stealing point or ripping a bird. Pressure comes from a handler yammering and nagging his dog. Just about any situation where a dog can make a mistake applies pressure.

Some dogs handle pressure better than others. Some stand up under it just fine and do as they've been taught; others fold and sit, lie down, or flag; some blow out of the situation by running off or blinking.

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:34 pm

If what Shags said is true , then there is no answer for the poster or any individual.
I believe he is right.
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So, ..who want's a puppy from a ftch ? .roll up , roll up :twisted: :mrgreen: :wink:

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:49 pm

FWIW -

Shags got it right...EXACTLY right.

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:20 am

Ditto that.

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by DonF » Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:43 am

I'm with shags here.

If a dog sit's, I don't believe it's really showing pressure particularly. If it's sitting alert and waiting, that is confusion. A safe position but the dog isn't upset. if a dog lie's down with it's head up and alert, it's not pressure, again it's confusion. The dog that sit's and hang's it's head, cower's, show's pressure. Samr with lying down. Watch the dogs head and eye's.
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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by Higgins » Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:01 pm

Instead of the word "pressure", I like to use the word "stress". Stress can be felt and is managed (or not managed) by all involved, the handler, the shooter, the dog and the bird(s).

Pressure the dog feels is just a part of the picture. We all know how to relieve the handler induced "pressure" the dog feels. But pressure causes stress. How do we relieve the stress? I like the word better because it describes the emotional state we created.

Higgins

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by polmaise » Sat Jun 04, 2016 1:17 pm

shags wrote:There are all kinds and infinite degrees of pressure. Any time you ask your dog to do something contrary to what he has in mind, it's pressure. Corrections are pressure. Pen-raised birds walking around in front of your dog is pressure. So is a bracemate stealing point or ripping a bird. Pressure comes from a handler yammering and nagging his dog. Just about any situation where a dog can make a mistake applies pressure.

Some dogs handle pressure better than others. Some stand up under it just fine and do as they've been taught; others fold and sit, lie down, or flag; some blow out of the situation by running off or blinking.
I like this line ! and can relate to it.
The ones that 'do as they've been taught' would suggest the training is understood by the dog and 'pressure' is a flow chart for both dog and the handler applying it.
The ones that 'Fold and sit',lie down or flag' would suggest that the dog has not experienced 'pressure' in a progressive stage and or has 'pressure' applied inappropriately, there fore reacts accordingly !(You can't get a telling off for doing nothing )
The ones that blow out or run off or blinking', are avoiding 'known pressure' previously applied and caused 'flight' .

All is behavioural issues in 'training' and was NEVER installed in the dog when it was born! ..That day ,it was 100% perfect.
The Sire and Dam may well have proved all the attributes and succeeded through all forms of 'Pressure' , but All of that was certainly not 'Bred' into the dog !!..

This was a classic,.Good well bred dog that knows all that was bred in to it, then the new owners came along , but there is help available ;) .lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KELuGUDjsQA
Surprised ?...when one gets a ftchxftch pup and it's suddenly a lunatic by 6 months old and 'NOT CONFORMING TO THE PROGRAM' ? ..
Some handlers (I'm primarily talking about people who work their dogs for the shooting field in any form and any breed) can read' a dog and many different dogs , some can't and never will.That's a fact .
I have yet to 'read them all' but it's an interesting day every day.

The 'Newcomer' to the sport with one dog and only ever having owned that one dog must never feel that they 'are under pressure' (imo) from those that were in that place at one time,and it's hard in the gun dog world to not feel like 'I can't train a dog' for a newcomer . So 'Pressure' is also translated to both ends of that lead .

Help and assistance is readily available these days ,by way of DVD or Forums or Internet blogs etc. But 'Pressure' is only ever experienced at that point!? Not after reading or watching.

'Examples of Pressure' is the Topic ..Yea, well I could just look at a dog in a certain way and it will 'feel pressure' (in-direct) , but I couldn't do it over the forum with the op's dog or dogs :wink:
'Direct Pressure/In-direct Pressure' ? Start here . :P
Last edited by polmaise on Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:05 pm

I too like that line. I think with my strict regime-type thinking I may be better suited to labs. For many years I worked as a youth worker, I believe in structure and expectations. My cocker, which luckily is a bit harder than most is still quite soft to be suited to my style. I constantly have to double back and take a softer approach. When working with a retriever trainer I learned early on that I could not train my boy the same as the labs were trained. I think the key is figuring out how your dog operates and then trying to learn as much as you can about training those type of dogs - soft or hard.
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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by gundogguy » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:06 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:I too like that line. I think with my strict regime-type thinking I may be better suited to labs. For many years I worked as a youth worker, I believe in structure and expectations. My cocker, which luckily is a bit harder than most is still quite soft to be suited to my style. I constantly have to double back and take a softer approach. When working with a retriever trainer I learned early on that I could not train my boy the same as the labs were trained. I think the key is figuring out how your dog operates and then trying to learn as much as you can about training those type of dogs - soft or hard.
Congratulations, Cass I think you have had an epiphany. Good things are learned about ourselves and our dogs when we train in ernest.
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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by tailcrackin » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:12 am

The sitting, in my opinion, isn't from pressure, its confusion. Most don't take the time to teach, its a "hurry up" and learn it, type of work. When you get, a/the sitting, you have gotta step back, and think, what haven't I shown, or why isn't the dog understanding what I am asking.
It doesn't bother me a bit, when a dog, that a dog I am working with sits, I work threw it, and go on. Once I adjust, my hands, and teaching for the dog, sitting stops, and confidence grows. The quote from Ray Hunt as my signature says a lot. "Don't make it happen, get it ready and let it happen." Most wanna hurry and push. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by DonF » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:35 am

tailcrackin wrote:The sitting, in my opinion, isn't from pressure, its confusion. Most don't take the time to teach, its a "hurry up" and learn it, type of work. When you get, a/the sitting, you have gotta step back, and think, what haven't I shown, or why isn't the dog understanding what I am asking.
It doesn't bother me a bit, when a dog, that a dog I am working with sits, I work threw it, and go on. Once I adjust, my hands, and teaching for the dog, sitting stops, and confidence grows. The quote from Ray Hunt as my signature says a lot. "Don't make it happen, get it ready and let it happen." Most wanna hurry and push. Thanks Jonesy
i agree. years ago a guy with a setter up in Wash called. had a problem with his dog, when he said whoa, she sat. Told him what to do but a few days latter he called and just couldn't do it. So he brought her down and in a few minute's in the yard the problem was fixed. She was simply confused. I got her on a check cord, gave her a whoa command and down she went, wagging her tail all the way with ear's perked up. i raised the CC above my head and started pulling her gently. soon as her butt left the ground I took the pressure off the CC and gave the whoa command. She sat right away again. as I recall I did that two more time's and the problem was solved. She was not reacting to pressure but rather confusion. Read the dog, most show confusion and pressure in different ways!
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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:23 am

DonF wrote:
tailcrackin wrote:The sitting, in my opinion, isn't from pressure, its confusion. Most don't take the time to teach, its a "hurry up" and learn it, type of work. When you get, a/the sitting, you have gotta step back, and think, what haven't I shown, or why isn't the dog understanding what I am asking.
It doesn't bother me a bit, when a dog, that a dog I am working with sits, I work threw it, and go on. Once I adjust, my hands, and teaching for the dog, sitting stops, and confidence grows. The quote from Ray Hunt as my signature says a lot. "Don't make it happen, get it ready and let it happen." Most wanna hurry and push. Thanks Jonesy
i agree. years ago a guy with a setter up in Wash called. had a problem with his dog, when he said whoa, she sat. Told him what to do but a few days latter he called and just couldn't do it. So he brought her down and in a few minute's in the yard the problem was fixed. She was simply confused. I got her on a check cord, gave her a whoa command and down she went, wagging her tail all the way with ear's perked up. i raised the CC above my head and started pulling her gently. soon as her butt left the ground I took the pressure off the CC and gave the whoa command. She sat right away again. as I recall I did that two more time's and the problem was solved. She was not reacting to pressure but rather confusion. Read the dog, most show confusion and pressure in different ways!
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:32 am

DonF wrote:
tailcrackin wrote:The sitting, in my opinion, isn't from pressure, its confusion. Most don't take the time to teach, its a "hurry up" and learn it, type of work. When you get, a/the sitting, you have gotta step back, and think, what haven't I shown, or why isn't the dog understanding what I am asking.
It doesn't bother me a bit, when a dog, that a dog I am working with sits, I work threw it, and go on. Once I adjust, my hands, and teaching for the dog, sitting stops, and confidence grows. The quote from Ray Hunt as my signature says a lot. "Don't make it happen, get it ready and let it happen." Most wanna hurry and push. Thanks Jonesy
i agree. years ago a guy with a setter up in Wash called. had a problem with his dog, when he said whoa, she sat. Told him what to do but a few days latter he called and just couldn't do it. So he brought her down and in a few minute's in the yard the problem was fixed. She was simply confused. I got her on a check cord, gave her a whoa command and down she went, wagging her tail all the way with ear's perked up. i raised the CC above my head and started pulling her gently. soon as her butt left the ground I took the pressure off the CC and gave the whoa command. She sat right away again. as I recall I did that two more time's and the problem was solved. She was not reacting to pressure but rather confusion. Read the dog, most show confusion and pressure in different ways!
We are simply trying to say the same thing but using different terms. The dog sits because of the pressure caused by confusion. Dogs and humans have little problem with being confused except for the pressure it causes trying to do what we should and not knowing how exactly, so the dog sits while we as people can have varied reactions because we are able to think. I may just break out in a sweat while you may have a completely different reaction. Confusion always produces pressure. And the more important it is we do it right, the more pressure we feel.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Examples of "pressure"

Post by DonF » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:59 pm

I don't think so. Real pressure in a dog will look like real pressure. While you might call confusion pressure, it's so light it doesn't really effect the dog negatively.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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