Retrieving

GSP All Day · Post by **GSP All Day** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:53 pm

I have an almost 6 month old GSP. (If not interested in reading post, scroll to bottom for my question)

He has been water retrieving for about a month now and this is the process I used (No E-Collar used)

1. Introduced him to the water, no toys, sticks, etc.
2. Took roughly a week but once he was comfortable going into the water, I started by throwing sticks in and he would get them, come back to shore drop it and continue being a puppy.
3. Next day I brought a 50 foot rope, and basically got him to come to me with stick/bumper still in mouth and to drop it.
4. After about two weeks I have him retrieving off leash which brings me to the point of this post.

When he retrieves off leash, he comes towards me but then circles really wide then finally comes back to me. I never move or give him attention while he does this and he eventually brings it to me but any ideas on how can I break this?

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:59 am

Work on a really solid recall. When he gets the dummy in his mouth immediately call him in...................Cj

oldbeek · Post by **oldbeek** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:18 am

He is a puppy , almost 6 mos old! Lots of young dogs do this. Worst yet with dead pigeons. They like to hold their prize a little longer. When he does come to you let him hold the stick, dummy or bird and give him lots of love and praise, them take the object from him. Have fun with your puppy.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:12 pm

oldbeek wrote:He is a puppy , almost 6 mos old! Lots of young dogs do this. Worst yet with dead pigeons. They like to hold their prize a little longer. When he does come to you let him hold the stick, dummy or bird and give him lots of love and praise, them take the object from him. Have fun with your puppy.

+1. Let him hold it. He's proud and doesn't want it "taken" away. Let him lose interest before you take it.

Also, stop with the sticks. One day you may get that instead of the greenhead you dropped. Use dummies instead.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:22 pm

Place Board Training would be a good 'place' to start .

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:11 pm

polmaise wrote:Place Board Training would be a good 'place' to start .

I'll second that. Normal behavior for a 6 month old puppy but time to break it before it goes on too long.

welsh · Post by **welsh** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:47 pm

Place board is a good suggestion, but ultimately, if he is returning to you after his little parade then if you simply wait for him to come all the way back and then praise him for that, the parading will fade on its own. May happen quicker than you think.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:01 pm

He's a baby and just starting retirieving. Don't make the mistake that 90% of all people make and try to get the bumper from him right away. Just sit or lie down, let him parade around you, and pet him while he's holding the bumper. Tell him how proud you are of him. Once he finds out he'll get petted and not get the bumper taken from him, he'll start coming to you. Don't worry about him spitting it out, perfect retrieves come later. Now it's ALL about confidence and desire. Don't worry about the mechanics.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:07 am

trade objects you want retrieved for treats (at first cut up pieces of hot dogs, then a few pieces of kibble, etc.). Work up to dummies. At first reward every retrieve, later every third or so, still later you won't need to reward.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:46 am

Ouzel wrote:trade objects you want retrieved for treats (at first cut up pieces of hot dogs, then a few pieces of kibble, etc.). Work up to dummies. At first reward every retrieve, later every third or so, still later you won't need to reward.

I agree this may work, but it could create another problem, which is the dog prematurely spitting out the retrieved item.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:02 am

you don't reward for a dropped dummy.

oregon woodsmoke · Post by **oregon woodsmoke** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:50 am

The dog will soon enough learn that there is a reward for handling you the dummy because you will throw it again and the dog gets to fetch it again.

If he likes to carry and not give it to you, at the end of training let him carry the dummy back to the house / car, so that carrying the dummy means the end of the game and giving it to you means he gets to chase it again. Just don't start any game of keep-away with him, since that is a very beloved doggy favorite game and very rewarding to the dog.

"Come" and "sit" should have been well taught separately. Except for you pointer fellows who never teach "sit". I'd let the pup swank around and show off for a small bit and then call him and have him sit-fore. Praise lavishly, take the dummy gently, and throw it again as a reward.

For any sort of decent bird dog, the fetch itself should be the best reward, so all you need to do is give the pup time to figure out that the game goes on as soon as he returns the dummy to you. I recommend that fetch should be a well established happy game before you do any force breaking-- if you force break the fetch. Some dogs don't need force breaking.

Also, you can use a short check cord and reel the dog in to you if you really can't get him to come to you--- but seriously, the recall should be very firmly established by this point.

oregon woodsmoke · Post by **oregon woodsmoke** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:54 am

I'm going to give a caution. Maybe you hunter types already know it and I'm wasting my time, but I'll give it anyway.

If you play fetch with sticks, you risk a stick injury to the throat. It's a serious injury and not all that rare. The stick bounces, the dog grabs one end, the other end hits the ground and the force of the dog's movement drives the end of the stick into the back of the throat.

Maybe not a danger for water fetch, but there are much safer things to play fetch with.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:39 pm

'Shaping' a behaviour for one that knows no other is easy .
One that has already figured out what to do is harder for the same dog and handler to fix. (Because they both done it )
Unwittingly ,and without intention but it is what it is . (otherwise there would be no post) .
This one has been doing what the 'OP'S dog has been doing for over a Year ! Fortunately the OP has only a pup .

So the 'place board' in this case is a 'safe zone' ..the back of the truck . But it is a 'place' and dogs will happy retrieve to a place rather than a person .

The comment earlier regarding 'reward' / exchange and any possibility of 'spitting out' is a by-product of bad timing in the 'process' . (That's just poor training with a dog that already has the habit) .The novice handler with a young dog with no bad habits can often 'get away with it' ...That's just luck .

With this one a 'tool' was used but it could have been any ?..Work with what works for that dog .
There are a few clips in this post to show the progress and process ,so thinking that at one of the clips is the right one for your dog or any one's dog would be looking for a quick fix ,and there is none with a dog and handler who already has the issue. So unfortunately (if the op is interested ) all the clips will have to be watched! (sorry) ..after that , the training begins .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIMwH6P7K4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt01v07gXsE

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:40 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsl5IcJa_xQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10LK3Zyh0UA

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:41 pm

Of course ,doing it with the handler/owner and the trainer throwing the bumpers is the icing on the cake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmmN1jei-t4

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:17 pm

Ignore most of the advice you've been given, get a decent retriever training program (Smart Works, Lardy, Fowl Dog) follow it and ignore most of the advice given here. Building a dog is like building a home; first you study a blueprint, then you lay a foundation, then comes the framework and follow with the finish. In other words, start from the ground, proceed in a specific order, and build upwards.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:23 pm

gonehuntin' wrote: Ignore most of the advice you've been given, get a decent retriever training program (Smart Works, Lardy, Fowl Dog) follow it and ignore most of the advice given here. Building a dog is like building a home; first you study a blueprint, then you lay a foundation, then comes the framework and follow with the finish. In other words, start from the ground, proceed in a specific order, and build upwards.

With all due respect, GH, the advise you're wishing folks to ignore here seems like an offshoot of the advise you offered earlier in the thread, which is that the dog gets rewarded (petted) for bringing the bumper. Exchanging for food just ramps up the training such that the OP's problem can be solved in about 30 minutes vs ... what?.... a few weeks of timed petting?

As far as SmartWorks or Lardy's programs I think they are OK for retriever types but, because of the nature of most "versatile" dogs, I couldn't recommend them unless the trainer is very experienced. Simply stated, there are now some quicker methods of teaching some of these skills (and dealing with some of these bad habits) that weren't worked out back then - all with the same results.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:24 am

Ouzel wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote: Ignore most of the advice you've been given, get a decent retriever training program (Smart Works, Lardy, Fowl Dog) follow it and ignore most of the advice given here. Building a dog is like building a home; first you study a blueprint, then you lay a foundation, then comes the framework and follow with the finish. In other words, start from the ground, proceed in a specific order, and build upwards.

With all due respect, GH, the advise you're wishing folks to ignore here seems like an offshoot of the advise you offered earlier in the thread, which is that the dog gets rewarded (petted) for bringing the bumper. Exchanging for food just ramps up the training such that the OP's problem can be solved in about 30 minutes vs ... what?.... a few weeks of timed petting?

As far as SmartWorks or Lardy's programs I think they are OK for retriever types but, because of the nature of most "versatile" dogs, I couldn't recommend them unless the trainer is very experienced. Simply stated, there are now some quicker methods of teaching some of these skills (and dealing with some of these bad habits) that weren't worked out back then - all with the same results.

Interesting, I can't recall anyone else calling Lardy's methods outdated.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:24 am

Ouzel wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote: Ignore most of the advice you've been given, get a decent retriever training program (Smart Works, Lardy, Fowl Dog) follow it and ignore most of the advice given here. Building a dog is like building a home; first you study a blueprint, then you lay a foundation, then comes the framework and follow with the finish. In other words, start from the ground, proceed in a specific order, and build upwards.

With all due respect, GH, the advise you're wishing folks to ignore here seems like an offshoot of the advise you offered earlier in the thread, which is that the dog gets rewarded (petted) for bringing the bumper. Exchanging for food just ramps up the training such that the OP's problem can be solved in about 30 minutes vs ... what?.... a few weeks of timed petting?

As far as SmartWorks or Lardy's programs I think they are OK for retriever types but, because of the nature of most "versatile" dogs, I couldn't recommend them unless the trainer is very experienced. Simply stated, there are now some quicker methods of teaching some of these skills (and dealing with some of these bad habits) that weren't worked out back then - all with the same results.

I wrote that advice early in the post before he started getting what I consider contradictory info, which is usual on these posts. The dog is six months old. I don't treat at six months and beyond. Treating is for pups. The info you say is outdated, Lardy and Graham, are the methods being used by virtually every retriever trainied in the country today and the basics by most versatile dog trainers. When I was traininng professionally, EVERY DOG, POINTER, RETRIEVER OR SPANIEL, went through the same basic starting program. It was only as they progressed that the program's separated. For Versatile dog's, there is little difference between a good retriever program and a pointing dog program except you emphasize the point rather than the flush.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:48 am

We'll ... when I read through my copies of Smartwork, Smartfetch, Smartwork II, and Lardie's articles I don't find a single reference to using treats for teaching OB or other skills, or correcting problems. That's outdated. Positive reinforcement methods can aid in teaching/correcting except that they're pretty much ignored by the current methods. Hillman ignores them as well.

Teaching the dog to bring back the dummy is a good example. Another example would be correcting a dog's habit of not sitting and facing the handler after a whistle. What's Grahams or Lardies preferred method? Drills, ropes? What's yours? Mine is to teach the dog in the back yard that after a "sit" whistle is blown he won't get a treat unless he's facing me directly.

Using the ecollar to teach "come"? Don't even ask. Force fetching? In Smartfetch, Graham mentions one of his prize dogs taking eight weeks of forcing before "the lights came on". I "force fetch" with kimble and in very short time the dog understands the commands and has a nice trained retrieve. Overlay that with the ecollar (for subsequent noncompliance) and the problem is solved.

I am not arguing against a well thought out program for every dog, just that methods are evolving and we shouldn't be too rigid in our methods.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:44 am

Ouzel wrote:We'll ... when I read through my copies of Smartwork, Smartfetch, Smartwork II, and Lardie's articles I don't find a single reference to using treats for teaching OB or other skills, or correcting problems. That's outdated. Positive reinforcement methods can aid in teaching/correcting except that they're pretty much ignored by the current methods. Hillman ignores them as well.

Teaching the dog to bring back the dummy is a good example. Another example would be correcting a dog's habit of not sitting and facing the handler after a whistle. What's Grahams or Lardies preferred method? Drills, ropes? What's yours? Mine is to teach the dog in the back yard that after a "sit" whistle is blown he won't get a treat unless he's facing me directly.

Using the ecollar to teach "come"? Don't even ask. Force fetching? In Smartfetch, Graham mentions one of his prize dogs taking eight weeks of forcing before "the lights came on". I "force fetch" with kimble and in very short time the dog understands the commands and has a nice trained retrieve. Overlay that with the ecollar (for subsequent noncompliance) and the problem is solved.

I am not arguing against a well thought out program for every dog, just that methods are evolving and we shouldn't be too rigid in our methods.

Treats are not a new method but have been pretty much discarded in the past 20 or 30 years as they cause some other problems that most trainers do not need as they don't want to spend time correcting them. When you find the Pros using and advocating something different than you are it is normally because they have found what works and what stays with the dog for a life time and not just what is easier.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:55 am

ezzy333 wrote:Treats are not a new method but have been pretty much discarded in the past 20 or 30 years as they cause some other problems that most trainers do not need as they don't want to spend time correcting them.

Can you be more specific?

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:22 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Treats are not a new method but have been pretty much discarded in the past 20 or 30 years as they cause some other problems that most trainers do not need as they don't want to spend time correcting them. When you find the Pros using and advocating something different than you are it is normally because they have found what works and what stays with the dog for a life time and not just what is easier.

Say what? More people in the retriever world than ever are becoming "cookie trainers" nowadays - it's just that they are trainers who train their own dogs until they go off to a pro as GH mentioned at 6-7 months. At that time it wouldn't really matter if they (owner-trainers) were cookie trainers or caviar treat trainers, as the pro is going to shape and develop the dog on more advanced lines, including force fetching and water forcing, and the other ground work for turning out an all-age retriever. Many of these cookie trainers are in fact encouraged to engage a pup in such a way by their pros, just so you know.

MG

chrokeva · Post by **chrokeva** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:23 pm

polmaise wrote:'Shaping' a behaviour for one that knows no other is easy .
One that has already figured out what to do is harder for the same dog and handler to fix. (Because they both done it )
Unwittingly ,and without intention but it is what it is . (otherwise there would be no post) .
This one has been doing what the 'OP'S dog has been doing for over a Year ! Fortunately the OP has only a pup .

So the 'place board' in this case is a 'safe zone' ..the back of the truck . But it is a 'place' and dogs will happy retrieve to a place rather than a person .

The comment earlier regarding 'reward' / exchange and any possibility of 'spitting out' is a by-product of bad timing in the 'process' . (That's just poor training with a dog that already has the habit) .The novice handler with a young dog with no bad habits can often 'get away with it' ...That's just luck .

With this one a 'tool' was used but it could have been any ?..Work with what works for that dog .
There are a few clips in this post to show the progress and process ,so thinking that at one of the clips is the right one for your dog or any one's dog would be looking for a quick fix ,and there is none with a dog and handler who already has the issue. So unfortunately (if the op is interested ) all the clips will have to be watched! (sorry) ..after that , the training begins .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIMwH6P7K4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt01v07gXsE

Throughly enjoyed watching all the clips! Although I have used placeboards I have never had the concept explained as you do in these clips and using the ball as a reward for the retrieve is brilliant! Just seems so much easier than the struggle I went through with my pup and the dog is so engaged with you as another bonus to this method. Can't wait to try it out on my next dog!
Jackie

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:01 pm

[/list]

Ouzel wrote:We'll ... when I read through my copies of Smartwork, Smartfetch, Smartwork II, and Lardie's articles I don't find a single reference to using treats for teaching OB or other skills, or correcting problems.
That's outdated. Positive reinforcement methods can aid in teaching/correcting except that they're pretty much ignored by the current methods. Hillman ignores them as well.

Teaching the dog to bring back the dummy is a good example. Another example would be correcting a dog's habit of not sitting and facing the handler after a whistle. What's Grahams or Lardies preferred method? Drills, ropes? What's yours? Mine is to teach the dog in the back yard that after a "sit" whistle is blown he won't get a treat unless he's facing me directly.

Using the ecollar to teach "come"? Don't even ask. Force fetching? In Smartfetch, Graham mentions one of his prize dogs taking eight weeks of forcing before "the lights came on". I "force fetch" with kimble and in very short time the dog understands the commands and has a nice trained retrieve. Overlay that with the ecollar (for subsequent noncompliance) and the problem is solved.

I am not arguing against a well thought out program for every dog, just that methods are evolving and we shouldn't be too rigid in our methods.

And there is a very good reason for that. When a trainer issues a command to a dog, he wants that dog to respond because the dog knows he HAS to respond, not respond to get a treat. There is a gigantic difference. Treating is GREAT FOR PUPS AND YOUNG DOGS, but an older obeys commands because he knows he HAS to obey that command.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:09 am

gonehuntin wrote: And there is a very good reason for that. When a trainer issues a command to a dog, he wants that dog to respond because the dog knows he HAS to respond, not respond to get a treat. There is a gigantic difference. Treating is GREAT FOR PUPS AND YOUNG DOGS, but an older obeys commands because he knows he HAS to obey that command.

I'm in total agreement with what you say except for the part about treating being only for pups and young dogs. I'm talking about fixing problems (or teaching new stuff) where the dog, young or old, doesn't know what he's supposed to be doing in order to please you. I gave a few examples where PR is more likely to get the desired results in a shorter period of time than traditional means. When the dog knows what's expected and willfully disobeys then that is an entirely different issue, and is dealt with by aversive means (like the ecollar, etc.), or attrition (in the case of confusion).

So, let's take a three year old GSP who sits on the whistle well but doesn't square up, so doesn't take casts reliably. For example, she might be sitting facing to left and you want to cast her to the right. The dog's been collar conditioned and been through the single T. She is a very strong and independent hunter but is sort of sensitive to ecollar corrections. How would you (or anybody for that matter) approach getting a better sit at a distance?

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:51 am

Ouzel wrote:...Let's take a three year old GSP who sits on the whistle well but doesn't square up, so doesn't take casts reliably. For example, she might be sitting facing to left and you want to cast her to the right. The dog's been collar conditioned and been through the single T. She is a very strong and independent hunter but is sort of sensitive to ecollar corrections. How would you (or anybody for that matter) approach getting a better sit at a distance?

Bruce (at least I think that's you, "Ouzel"), you could either accommodate the crooked sit with the angle of your cast (literal casting, which a lot of us use in compensating in field trials and training for that matter) or you could use attrition - quick come-in cum sit whistles, until the dog moves into a straightened sit so that it can better take your cast. That's my preferred route with young dogs; it doesn't diminish their enthusiasm, or really impede their progress in running a blind retrieve - just gets them more confident that they are cooperating with you as a team on a blind retrieve.

On the other hand, if the dog's "sort of sensitive to e-collar corrections," you could also tamp down on the heat, even use a beeper or tone to get its attention, and make your correction in so doing. Versatile dogs don't ordinarily need the kind of precision casting retrievers get, but there's no reason they can't learn it and learn to take those precise casts to the handler's satisfaction without beating them up for it.

MG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:59 am

Ouzel wrote:
gonehuntin wrote: And there is a very good reason for that. When a trainer issues a command to a dog, he wants that dog to respond because the dog knows he HAS to respond, not respond to get a treat. There is a gigantic difference. Treating is GREAT FOR PUPS AND YOUNG DOGS, but an older obeys commands because he knows he HAS to obey that command.
I'm in total agreement with what you say except for the part about treating being only for pups and young dogs. I'm talking about fixing problems (or teaching new stuff) where the dog, young or old, doesn't know what he's supposed to be doing in order to please you. I gave a few examples where PR is more likely to get the desired results in a shorter period of time than traditional means. When the dog knows what's expected and willfully disobeys then that is an entirely different issue, and is dealt with by aversive means (like the ecollar, etc.), or attrition (in the case of confusion).

So, let's take a three year old GSP who sits on the whistle well but doesn't square up, so doesn't take casts reliably. For example, she might be sitting facing to left and you want to cast her to the right. The dog's been collar conditioned and been through the single T. She is a very strong and independent hunter but is sort of sensitive to ecollar corrections. How would you (or anybody for that matter) approach getting a better sit at a distance?

First, you would never try to correct a problem with a dog that doesn't know what it's being corrected for. That is just ignorant. With the GSP, you would first teach it a simple heeling drill. Once she has mastered that, put her on a rope and walk a circle around her. Stop every few feet and give a tug on the rope, commanding "watch" and make her turn and face you. It doesn't take long. She is doing what she was trained to do, sitting on the whistle and not moving. At the onset had you had her on a rope on the T, you could have jerked her around to face you and blew the whistle again, showing her without a major correction that she should always face you on a whistle. Sometimes all you have to do is call her to you and as soon as she's straight, hit the sit whistle again. It is a problem many dogs go through, very common.

I NEVER TREAT AN OLDER DOG. My treat to an older dog is petting and praise. I want them to work for MY APPROVAL, not a hot dog.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:27 am

Ouzel, what if we use the same scenario you set up for us, but that GSP doesn't give two craps about your kibble or chuck of hot dog... What do you resort to then?

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:48 am

Well, my pup came up with that problem about a month ago and so I consulted my "Lardy expert" training buddy. He recommended the same line drills and in-come sit whistles that MG recommended, and I already knew what GH would say about the rope drill (from a previous post of his a year or so ago). After a week of only mediocre results I took the dog to the back yard and blew the whistle and only gave her a treat when she sat squared up. In a few short sessions the problem was corrected and it has since carried over nicely in the field. Whoa!

I've been thinking about the disconnect between you old gomer trainers and your reluctance to learn new tricks. I'm hoping you understand this PR stuff is for teaching and shaping desired behavior and, in my view, doesn't supplant the tried and true programs for retriever training. But it's not foo foo! It's a very powerful tool and, because there is no force involved, the speed for learning is dramatic. It's probably best for pups and young dogs (as GH says) but likely can help solve other issues.

Want to teach the dog to come? - use some treats. Won't bring the dummy back? - use some treats. Want to teach sit? Put a few kernels of kibble over it's head and say "sit". Want to teach heel? Put a few more in your hand and walk around with them at dog level. Once taught, and the dog knows what the various commands mean, you overlay the ecollar and you're good to go. The PR folks say treats are enough for any distraction but I think that's bunk (don't expect treats to stop a dog from chasing a squirrel that comes into the yard).

Also, I've "force fetched" two dogs using PR instead of the traditional methods and it was pretty amazing. The process didn't take very long and the dogs were happy learning their new skills. Later I added a low level ecollar burn to the "fetch" command and, now, after a year or, so the method has held up perfectly. Both of these dogs were under four months of age when I taught them so I'm thinking PR has some merit here as well (MG has probably seen a video clip of the results of this method with my PP at four months of age).

So, anyway, that's my pitch. Think about PR when your next dog issue comes up. The dog in my hypothetical situation was a two year old PP (not a 3 y/o GSP), and this afternoon we're off to see how she does in her first senior level HRC test.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:50 am

mnaj_springer wrote:Ouzel, what if we use the same scenario you set up for us, but that GSP doesn't give two craps about your kibble or chuck of hot dog... What do you resort to then?

try Hungarian partridge

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:49 am

Ouzel wrote: Also, I've "force fetched" two dogs using PR instead of the traditional methods and it was pretty amazing. The process didn't take very long and the dogs were happy learning their new skills. Later I added a low level ecollar burn to the "fetch" command and, now, after a year or, so the method has held up perfectly. Both of these dogs were under four months of age when I taught them so I'm thinking PR has some merit here as well (MG has probably seen a video clip of the results of this method with my PP at four months of age).

So, anyway, that's my pitch. Think about PR when your next dog issue comes up. The dog in my hypothetical situation was a two year old PP (not a 3 y/o GSP), and this afternoon we're off to see how she does in her first senior level HRC test.

You're first mistake is thinking you force fetched your dog using treats. You trained him to pick up and hold, you didn't force him.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:59 am

com'on GH ... I put "force fetch" in quotes. The point is that the dog learned the commands of fetch, hold, and drop with no force - quickly, and at an early age. Later, the commands were proofed by the ecollar.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:01 pm

Ouzel wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:Ouzel, what if we use the same scenario you set up for us, but that GSP doesn't give two craps about your kibble or chuck of hot dog... What do you resort to then?
try Hungarian partridge

You're joking but I'm not. What is your solution when the dog in question has no desire to work for treats and won't take them or will spit them out?

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:09 pm

Ouzel wrote:com'on GH ... I put "force fetch" in quotes. The point is that the dog learned the commands of fetch, hold, and drop with no force - quickly, and at an early age. Later, the commands were proofed by the ecollar.

Darnit, Bruce, I was going to rebut GH and say - bad-dummm - that maybe you'd force-fed him treats, which could technically be a form of force fetching.

Want to clarify something on the "old gomer" trainer front from a retriever perspective - we do force, on everything, and when we force to the pile, and the dog tears out at 100mph - which is how you want performance Labs (or Boykins for that matter) to hit high gear when sent for a mark or on a blind - you're naturally going to have a tough time with young dogs particularly getting them to slip that gear when hearing a whistle and then turn around on a dime to face you.

Thus the ropes. Usually, at least with my dogs, it takes only one "reminder" that the sit-whistle should spin them around just like the end of a rope would. I'm not saying that everybody should have a gundog that goes 100mph from a standing start running blinds, just telling you how it happens sequentially through a force program and why treats wouldn't and most likely couldn't accomplish that same whirling dervish stop on a dime by a dog squared up and awaiting your cast.

MG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:42 pm

Let me also add MG, and it's always tough to add to anything you say, but I don't believe treats will EVER overcome drive.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:46 pm

Ouzel wrote:com'on GH ... I put "force fetch" in quotes. The point is that the dog learned the commands of fetch, hold, and drop with no force - quickly, and at an early age. Later, the commands were proofed by the ecollar.

You're a newbie at this so what you don't understand is that you cannot proof a dog thoroughly with an ecollar unless that dog has been thoroughly trained in every facet with that collar. What you're trying to tell me is that IF a dog refuses to pick up a bumper and get's stubborn about it, you can bump it with the collar and it will quickly pick up that bumper. I've been at this to long to possibly believe that. Treat when they're young, then force them when they're old. At that time the "treat" becomes my approval. And THAT is what I want them working for, MY approval, not a treat.

Ouzel · Post by **Ouzel** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:13 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:You're joking but I'm not. What is your solution when the dog in question has no desire to work for treats and won't take them or will spit them out?

Sorry ... I did think you were joking. I guess you should do the methods suggested by GH and MG since they work ... or maybe send the dog to someone like them who knows his stuff. I'm sure they are very competent trainers and their advise is always the best around. They can be a bit obstreperous though.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:28 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Let me also add MG, and it's always tough to add to anything you say, but I don't believe treats will EVER overcome drive.

You can believe it! If treats could over come drive we would all hunt with pigs! and no one in there their right sober mind would say that many of us own pigs..

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:42 pm

Ouzel wrote:
mnaj_springer wrote:You're joking but I'm not. What is your solution when the dog in question has no desire to work for treats and won't take them or will spit them out?
Sorry ... I did think you were joking. I guess you should do the methods suggested by GH and MG since they work ... or maybe send the dog to someone like them who knows his stuff. I'm sure they are very competent trainers and their advise is always the best around. They can be a bit obstreperous though.

And that's why people don't use treats. It can waste time when proven methods work.

oregon woodsmoke · Post by **oregon woodsmoke** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:43 am

If all we are talking about now is a straight sit, put the dog on the "no free lunch" program. At supper time, the dog doesn't get his dinner until he performs a trick or two. Make him sit straight before he gets his dinner. You accomplish two things. The dog gets the habit of a straight smart sit and the dog gets the habit of looking to you to take a command and then obeying.

My resident knothead is required to go out and bring me all the doggy supper dishes and then he must sit-fore, sit-heel, jump back and forth from both sits, down, and do a wait from the distance before he gets his supper. He's a dog who needs a job and he is a dog who loves his dinner, so he is happy with the program and does a nice snappy sit, although he does love to toss the supper dishes around and make noise while he is flying around the house at high speed and sliding around the corners.

There is a hand signal to sit straight, although you couldn't do it holding a gun. Hands held out parallel and the dog brain clicks really fast that he is to line himself up between the hands.

If you are starting a pup, it is easy enough to make yourself follow through and enforce every command. If you never in the pup's life give a command and then walk away without seeing the pup do it, the pup will have a life long habit of minding you. Decide what the rules are and make sure the rules are always the same and that every family member enforces the rules. We are indulgent in my household, but a pup will always come when called, no exceptions. If he doesn't come, someone will go out and get him and give him a scolding. Dogs are never allowed on the kitchen counter or in the trash, no exceptions, although I can't see where that has any application to hunting. Dogs are quiet when they are told to be quiet, even if someone has to get up from the TV and go over and enforce the command, every single time.

Obedience is a habit that can be instilled from the very beginning; it can be started well before the pup is even weaned. Cookies are useful for luring a young dog into the wanted position, but I prefer to have my dogs work for approval. I've never had a dog who wouldn't work for approval, although they sometimes want varying degrees. Some dogs want to be fussed and rumpled, some dogs want a slight nod and maybe a small smile.

Every dog has something he will work for. With a well bred bird dog, what he should want is to work birds, but you have to get him up to the point where he will do it right before he can work birds, so you have to find something else he wants to work for while you are getting him up to that bird-is-a-reward point.