First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

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arkanian86
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First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by arkanian86 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:07 pm

So I took my 5 month old Brittany to my nearest NAVHDA training day this past Saturday. For background, my pup has never seen a pigeon or game bird before, other than a wing on a string. He points/chases tweety birds on walks. I am also brand new to upland hunting.

Things I liked:
  • -Everyone was very helpful and interested in my pup. Great to meet people who want to help train.
    -I was able to see dogs in different stages of training which helps me to learn a lot.
    -Several people recommended starting collar conditioning on my pup. Maybe this should be in the other category since he's so young??
Things I didn't like:
  • -Guys frying their dogs on the e-collar when they didn't respond to commands (whoa/recall) to the point of dogs yelping.
    -Environment was more of a one guy leading training and everyone coming to him, in a teacher/student type relationship. This didn't leave much room for people wanting to try a different training method (I want to pursue Gibbons/West method).
    -No use of a check cord on any of the dogs including dogs who weren't steady to shot.
    -Trainer took my pup on the lead from me during the short period where they set birds for him, basically relegating me to watching.
    -Trainer didn't give an opportunity for my pup to get interested in the pigeon, or develop bird dominance. My pup was about a foot or so away from the launchers when he launched the birds and the wings flapping/launcher activation definitely frightened him.
What does everyone think of the above? Does this sound typical? Not trying to bust anyone's balls on the negatives above, I just want to hear some opinions. I know I'm the new guy. Here's a video of Copper's first point: https://youtu.be/jO98atjI5I4

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by Pedro » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:54 pm

That kinda hurt to watch.

Your dog seems to have lots of point, go have fun with him, worry about steadying him after he's busted and chased a bunch of birds. And don't ever lead your dog to the bird, use the wind and let him find it. Others will give more detailed analysis.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:40 pm

Pedro wrote:That kinda hurt to watch.

Your dog seems to have lots of point, go have fun with him, worry about steadying him after he's busted and chased a bunch of birds. And don't ever lead your dog to the bird, use the wind and let him find it. Others will give more detailed analysis.
I see no problem with your pup as he handled his bird well. Of course he was startled but he wasn't scared, startled might be the best word and there is nothing wrong with that. You get him on another bird and he will be less startled and within a couple of exposures he will be ready to go. Some of your other points do not sound real good but I will not judge since I wasn't there. % months is not to young to start collar conditioning if it is done right but it should not be used to correct things that haven't been taught.

Looks like a nice pup, just go slow and enjoy.
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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by cjhills » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:02 pm

Do not let him get that close to the launcher again. He will very likely get launcher shy if the keep launching birds in his face. He needs to find the bird rather than leading him to it he. Looks like a very nice puppy. He will do great. I would keep him away from that guy..............................Cj

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by polmaise » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:56 pm

I have real problems watching that clip,so I'll let the 'experts' guide you .

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by ibbowhunting » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:54 pm

what I've learn from some very similar situations always have a young dog on a check cord, I never allow my dogs to be handle by a trainer professional or amateur without me trusting them, after seeing them work there or other dogs, I have left the dog in the truck when I figured the situation would be prone to cause set backs, don't get me wrong there are some very good pro and amateur trainers that attend events like this you can learn a lot from them, or see the way not to do something as well as how to do something, as for the ecollars some dogs are very vocal so you cant judge the correction level on a noisy dog all the time, the reason I say this I use to think the same thing

Nice looking pup

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:14 pm

I watched the video. Your dog did an awesome job...under far less than ideal circumstances. Nice dog. I honestly think no harm was done... BUT, I would not do that again. he was definitely startled by the launcher, but I don't think he was frightened...this time.

The fellow's timing was so far off that HE should have been the one watching. AND he did it wrong to boot.

When you take a dog into a launcher, you go in perpendicular to and at least fifteen to twenty feet downwind of the launcher. Never, never NEVER... lead a dog into the launcher. The very instant that the dog acknowledges the presence of the bird you launch the bird. When I say acknowledge, I mean turn its head toward the bird, raise ...or lower its head to catch more scent or turn and drive toward the bird.

As soon as the bird is in the air, he should have let loose of the checkcord and let the dog do what it was going to do\ chase, stand whatever. The handler
put himself between the dog and the bird by overhandling. That is almost never a good thing.

I do think your dog made an amazing adjustment, first by maintaining its enthusiasm, despite having to watch the bird fly off while being jerked around as the handler tried to unclip the cord and then, with the bird long gone, to go over and stand the hot scent. You got a good one there fella. Smart, birdy and wants to please.

Don't worry so much about what other folks do with their dogs. It is perfectly fine to watch someone else and then make the judgment whether or not you wish to do it that way...OR NOT. Watch and learn both what to do and what NOT to do. Sometimes learning what NOT to do is waaay more valuable of a lesson to learn. Keep focused on your dog and what you want to accomplish.

If something does not look or sound or feel right to you...it probably will not be... for you. If you are not comfortable , I GUARANTEE that your dog will pick up on your unease and be unsure of itself and its responses to your training efforts. That is a recipe for problems.

RayG



Obviously, that particular chapter is run a certain way, and that is the way they want it to be run. The training goals and methods used by the members may well be different from your training goals and preferred methods. That is not good or bad...it is what it is. Some folks in Navhda are VERY focused on training their dogs to pass the various tests, and passing those tests is their goal.

As an example, Navhda testing places a lot of emphasis on water work. Many Navhda trainers will work on water retrieves and duck searches before doing much steadiness training, mainly because steadiness training may tend to inhibit the desire of the young dog to dive in and chase. Not good, not bad...just a different way to go about it, than I would, for example, because I could care less about retrieves in general( I train pointers for field trials), and have zero interest in water retrieves.

If you can work within the group in a manner that suits both you and your dog...fine. If you cannot, you need to find another training group. In the meantime, watch and learn.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:27 am

[quote="RayGubernat"]

I do think your dog made an amazing adjustment, first by maintaining its enthusiasm, despite having to watch the bird fly off while being jerked around as the handler tried to unclip the cord and then, with the bird long gone, to go over and stand the hot scent. You got a good one there fella. Smart, birdy and wants to please.



RayG

quote]

I completely agree with Ray, I liked your dog very much but wasn't so keen on the way it was being "trained." We do not have NAVHDA training days here in Britain but we do have training days that ,in some instances, have very much resembled what I saw on the video.
I had enough experience to refuse to take my pup into that sort of situation. It's just a shame that beginners don't have enough experience to do the same !

Having seen the behaviour of your pup I can say that I am sure it's future as a gundog is pretty rosy . :D

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by Urban_Redneck » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:38 am

It's your dog.

The training days I've attended were pretty busy, it didn't seem as there was a lot of time available to discuss philosophy with a dozen dogs waiting to rotate through the fields and half that around the training table. I suggest that you decide what you would like to accomplish and what you would like scenario to look like before leaving your house. Make that known to the folks running the training. Likely the best way to do this is to discuss that with them before the weekend.

I've been observing training/testing for a few months (I wish I started earlier). When I bring my pup around, I believe I know who I will gravitate toward and who I will avoid.

It's your dog.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by shags » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:30 am

I think you've received some very good advice in each post in this thread :D

One thing I would add, something I've learned over the years, is to remember that there are trainers and then there are "trainers". Just because someone is associated with a group, or hunts/tests/trials his dog, doesn't make him a trainer. Always observe before handing over your dog's lead or cc. When someone gives you his resume, take it with a grain of salt until you are able to observe his methods and results. Ask lots of questions and listen carefully to the answers when you see things that raise flags for you, and also when things make sense. If a trainer or "trainer" is too busy to to explain, or has so many dogs to look at that he can't take the time, that's an answer in itself.

You have a nice pup there. It doesn't look like any harm was done, but I'd be very careful going forward with that group. Good luck to you.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:25 am

arkanian86 wrote:So I took my 5 month old Brittany to my nearest NAVHDA training day this past Saturday. For background, my pup has never seen a pigeon or game bird before, other than a wing on a string. He points/chases tweety birds on walks. I am also brand new to upland hunting.

Things I liked:
  • -Everyone was very helpful and interested in my pup. Great to meet people who want to help train.
    -I was able to see dogs in different stages of training which helps me to learn a lot.
    -Several people recommended starting collar conditioning on my pup. Maybe this should be in the other category since he's so young??
Things I didn't like:
  • -Guys frying their dogs on the e-collar when they didn't respond to commands (whoa/recall) to the point of dogs yelping.
    -Environment was more of a one guy leading training and everyone coming to him, in a teacher/student type relationship. This didn't leave much room for people wanting to try a different training method (I want to pursue Gibbons/West method).
    -No use of a check cord on any of the dogs including dogs who weren't steady to shot.
    -Trainer took my pup on the lead from me during the short period where they set birds for him, basically relegating me to watching.
    -Trainer didn't give an opportunity for my pup to get interested in the pigeon, or develop bird dominance. My pup was about a foot or so away from the launchers when he launched the birds and the wings flapping/launcher activation definitely frightened him.
What does everyone think of the above? Does this sound typical? Not trying to bust anyone's balls on the negatives above, I just want to hear some opinions. I know I'm the new guy. Here's a video of Copper's first point: https://youtu.be/jO98atjI5I4
Wow, I thought your pup did a great job! The NAVHDA Chapters do a great job and are a valuable resource to the beginning as well as to the experienced trainers. They offer grounds, birds, physical help and training support that in many cases would not be avaialble. They also offer a way to meet many new good people who will become great friends as time goes on.
You now need to do your home work. As there are many different programs (or ways) to train a dog towards the end goal, you will need to pick the program that best suits you.
For now, the pup needs exposure, exposure and more exposure to strong flying birds, people, and everything else. Life should be all fun at this stage on birds and his confident needs to grow to where he is very confident. Once it is time for formal training, then I woudl recommend picking your preferred method of steadying the pup up and sticking with it. Many of the various programs will not mesh with a different method so pick the one you like. I would recommend you buying the book "Training with Mo" as a start and read through it. It will talk about starting the pup on birds, how to get the pup to handle and go all the way through steadying the pup up later on. This is one of many different programs out there to help the beginner trainer. I hope you will continue to share your pups development with us!

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by crackerd » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:02 am

polmaise wrote:I have real problems watching that clip,so I'll let the 'experts' guide you .
Robert, this is why I've opined that you would be a great addition to these shores as a gundog trainer.

NAVHDA is of great value to the beginner, but alas can also be of great detriment because, as shags noted, there are trainers and...there are "trainers." The level of expertise varies dramatically from one NAVHDA chapter to another, and when someone's running the show their way without the bonafides to go with their "guidance," you can have the potential for the kind of disaster that almost befell arkanian in his first brush with NAVHDA. It's an org. all about training the trainer, and generally effective at that goal, but you may also find "trainers" who are training you to train your dog for the NAVHDA duck search who've never succeeded in the duck search themselves. The "birddog" aspects - staunching up a dog, working it into a launcher, steadying to wing and shot - can be even worse for wear because that's what most NAVHDA newcomers want to work on - pointing - and the expertise (and experience) often doesn't exist within a given NAVHDA chapter. I won't ask which NAVHDA chapter arkanian threw in with, but timing and tested training methods are everything for how you make out the first time with NAVHDA and the impressions you take away. For example, given his location (Virginia Beach, Va.), had he gone in any of three different directions (due north [Rte. 13], I-95 North, or I-64 South), his introductory likes and dislikes chart could have had NAVHDA's purpose either smelling like a rose or four-day old flounder left out in the sun...

MG

PS Carolina Gundogs has given some good advice above in his concluding paragraph.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by DonF » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:03 am

arkanian86 wrote:So I took my 5 month old Brittany to my nearest NAVHDA training day this past Saturday. For background, my pup has never seen a pigeon or game bird before, other than a wing on a string. He points/chases tweety birds on walks. I am also brand new to upland hunting.

Things I liked:
  • -Everyone was very helpful and interested in my pup. Great to meet people who want to help train.
    -I was able to see dogs in different stages of training which helps me to learn a lot.
    -Several people recommended starting collar conditioning on my pup. Maybe this should be in the other category since he's so young??
Things I didn't like:
  • -Guys frying their dogs on the e-collar when they didn't respond to commands (whoa/recall) to the point of dogs yelping.
    -Environment was more of a one guy leading training and everyone coming to him, in a teacher/student type relationship. This didn't leave much room for people wanting to try a different training method (I want to pursue Gibbons/West method).
    -No use of a check cord on any of the dogs including dogs who weren't steady to shot.
    -Trainer took my pup on the lead from me during the short period where they set birds for him, basically relegating me to watching.
    -Trainer didn't give an opportunity for my pup to get interested in the pigeon, or develop bird dominance. My pup was about a foot or so away from the launchers when he launched the birds and the wings flapping/launcher activation definitely frightened him.
What does everyone think of the above? Does this sound typical? Not trying to bust anyone's balls on the negatives above, I just want to hear some opinions. I know I'm the new guy. Here's a video of Copper's first point: https://youtu.be/jO98atjI5I4
That is a nice pup, I wouldn't throw it out with the wash water! Something hard to see is the pup's willingness to hunt much wider. I'm sure that sling didn't help you one bit, hampered you from actually using the CC. The cc should be 20' to max 25' and you slide it in and out with your hands keeping the cc off the ground. With it off the ground, you can re-enforce command's right away. With it dragging, you can't enforce a command until the drag is out of it. By not letting the pup move out more, your encouraging it to hunt under your feet, that's where it always find the bird! I notice the bird was in a remote trap. For doing just the bird work, you don't need the cc but, if you don't have a cc, you better have remote traps and learn to use them. The cc is best used for whoa training. I like the original Delmar Smith on the whoa post, I don't care for the flank collar. Reason being I have done to many dog's the original way and it work's if you do your job!

On thing's you didn't like, they guy's you see frying their dog haven't a clue how to use one and leave everything in the dog that it has. They will take every thing out of the dog! but you'll find that in a lot of venues. What would bother me about that was not that they do it but that instructors said nothing about it! Pretty ugly!

Instructor's teach what they know. No one method is right and no one is wrong, Use them right and they all work! If I were instructing out there i could not help you with the Gibbons-West method, haven't a clue what they do! Another thing to keep in mind is that even if the instructor is teaching the method you want, you may not recognize part's of it. Problem being that having learned the method well, the instructor's add a few thing's that they've change to suit their need's. But the base should still be there. If you want to do the Gibbons-West method, the place to learn that is at a Gibbons-West seminar! Other wise you need to read their book over and over till it become's engraved in your brain. and even then you make some mistake's for no reason other than a misunderstanding of what they wrote. Do not worry about a mistake now and then, every body make's them. In a training session like that, there is no time to go over the different method handler's might want and there isn't an instructor I've ever heard of that could flip from one method to another and keep everything straight. Look at enough of them and you'll find a few things consistent in all of them. Timing is vital. You never to give and re-enforce the command without right on timing. Timing is vital and I've never seen any new handler that was even close in the beginning, all trainer's will admit to that. All trainer's will also tell you you really need to learn to read your dog, absolutely necessary no matter what method you use! I would expect that all good instructor's will encourage you to find one method you like and learn it very very well before you go off changing thing's on your own. A lot of good method's out there and they all work but, you must follow them!

I'd have trouble with no use of check cords. and using remote launcher's, they should too but they didn't use the launcher well enough for me. The bird should have been popped as soon as the pup smell's the first scent, learn to read your dog!!! They didn't do that but rather waited until you got it settled down to release the bird. The idea is , with them, to teach the pup what you want. my idea is to teach the pup how to get what it want's! Back up now and bring your pup in, on the far end of the cc, and soon as it hit's scent, you have to read that, pop the bird. What did the pup learn? It got it's first taste that it's movement cause's the bird to leave! Do that several more time's and the pup will hit point before you can pop the bird. The pup is learning how to get what it want's.

Trainer taking the lead is not a problem, if, he's going to demonstrate something for you. Then you need to pay very close attention to see what he's doing and he should explain it as he goes. A problem for most all trainer's is that they think some things are self evident. To them, Yes, to the student. nothing is self evident! I remember when I trained, every thing I did with a client's dog, I had my wife video for them. She had to learn what I wanted to get it right. I did not want the camera always on me, I wanted it on what I was doing and i talked through every step! i wrote a remote mic to be sure I could. What I didn't want was her telling the client what she though i was doing and why I did it. Then there are time's when I'm not handling the dog through something. at those time's the dog was in right next to me and settled down. then I wanted the camera right on me. No farther away than my waist to just over my head. People trying to learn from you, learn much better when the pay attention to you. That shot calls attention to the instructor all by himself. In a class room setting, such as it sound like you had. the instructor need's everyone attention on him. Guaranteed he doesn't get it so he'll have to go over some thing's several times. Instructor's only know how to do what they know how to do but most miss the point that with a new handler, nothing is self evident!

It's not really necessary for the instructor to get your dog pumped on a bird, but, rather to bring it out. Puppy's are born knowing more about birds they we'll ever know. Build on that. He let the pup get way to close before he popped it, your right. And you did the same thing. I suspect your though was to get the pup to a point where it could actually see the bird. What's wrong with that? Well your teaching the pup to use it's eye's not it's brain. It won't take long to get a pup pointing by not giving it the chance to see the bird that you think it needs. they keep looking for birds' dicky bird are great for pup's, Know why? they can't catch them and they start to hesitate before charging in. Then confusion get's them as they try to plot how to sneak up on them, they can't. But in that process, the pup is shown that by stopping, the bird is not gone right now, it's a learning process. I had a guy bring me a dog five or six years ago that was given to him by a shooting preserve that said the dog had to much prey drive, take's out all the birds. ZI can pretty much guarantee you that as a youngster, that pup was put on farm raised game birds and allow to catch a bunch. What does that teach the pup? That's right, it can catch the birds. Took that dog and my remote set up and in about 15 min had it pointing! No such thing as to much prey drive but those dogs are hard to work with. Not with pointing but with handling, that's where excessive pray drive shows itself. Go watch your video again notice the pup get's antsy long before you get to where you do actually stop it. Way back there was the place to do one of two things. Either pop the bird on the pup or if you want to use the cc to keep the bird from getting to the bird, stop the pup! It's got a nose full and then start's going to see what that is, stop the pup! Or pop the bird and let the pup learn it can't catch the bird like that.

One last thing and all good trainer's will tell you this: pay attention to what your training. Remember you took the pup in to see the bird, it learns it can get closer! Pay atteention to what your training!
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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by Tooling » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:43 am

..not sure I'd be too quick to "pile up" on this guy (trainer)

arkanian..here's my advice..sit back and learn..you did not witness any abuse (which would be my guess)

The guy's arm is in a sling for goodness sakes..how's about the benefit of the doubt??

..another pc of advice..when fortunate enough to spend some time with this "trainer"...listen up!!..be a sponge as you are dealing with a very deep well of experience there..especially with a pointy dog.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by slistoe » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:27 am

Too many chefs spoil the soup.

Concern yourself with the finished soup - if you like the soup, trust the chef.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:45 pm

slistoe wrote:Too many chefs spoil the soup.

Concern yourself with the finished soup - if you like the soup, trust the chef.
+1. A NAVHDA training day is totally different than training with a competent pro. At a NAVHDA day, everyone is a pro and is only too happy to tell you so. The more they can correct a dog, the happier they seem. Seem to think it's Macho to make a dog yelp when it's not trained in the first place. Not much use for training days. Find a GOOD pro and watch him. One recipe cooked unaltered is FAR better than mixing Mexican and Italian in the same dish.
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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by ckirsch » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:46 pm

I'd be pretty cautious about handing my dog off to anyone at a training day, unless it was a pro giving a demonstration. Even then, unless you're comfortable with the guy's credentials, might be better to let him work with someone else's dog. I've been fortunate to have met some very competent trainers through NAVHDA, and benefitted greatly through their generosity, but I've also seen a number of guys who I wouldn't want anywhere near my dog. (I've also been the recipient of some very solid advice from quite a few folks on this forum, so you've got a great resource right here.)

For what it's worth, I've taken a couple of dogs through UT, and one through the Invitational, but I don't consider myself qualified to instruct anyone else on how to handle their dog. Don't assume that someone necessarily knows what they're doing because they've had a VC. In my case, I was fortunate enough to have a dog whose mission in life was to make the boss happy. The fact that he did well in the tests had a lot more to do with his desire to please than with my training ability.

Watch, learn, and pick out the techniques that suit you and your dog.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by Tooling » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:00 pm

Guess I’ll be the contrarian view here..

arkanian..bird dominance from your little puppy who has never even been exposed to a live bird before..c’mon, let’s not get ahead of ourselves here..time to graduate from that wing on a string.

Also..by the looks of it, yes..your pup DID learn an interest in a bird..he also learned to stop and stand as opposed to investigating as his first instinct.

Did the handler lead the dog to the bird..yes, he did…kinda’..once pup picked up the scent the handler also taught him that the next time he encounters this scent his first instinct is to stand..this is a good thing and I think you will be well pleased once pup encounters another bird buried in the grass whether he is foot loose and fancy free or whether he is controlled by a CC.

I am inclined to suggest that this handler did more for you than your experience allows you to realize.

Did he botch cutting pup loose a little bit..sure he did..end of the world? Not by a long shot..you have a nice dog.

Would it perhaps have been a more conservative choice to have simply planted the bird asleep in lieu of a launcher considering how close pup got..probably. The sudden eruption of those bird wings overpowered the suddenness of the launcher in this case..that be a good thing so chalk it up for what it turned out to be - positive, and that's a win. (That doesn't mean be reckless w/launchers in the future as caution is warranted)

That is a nice nice birdy and bold pup you have there..I don’t want you to misunderstand what I am saying..just b/c he is bold does not mean that caution should be thrown to the wind..what I suppose I am saying is that the “new guy” might lay back and hold his tongue when it comes to critiquing those who have been at this for a good number of years and are also showing kindness that you just may not quite understand or immediately recognize.

It is great that you are asking questions and trying to understand as there is nothing wrong with voicing your “concerns”.

This guy did more for your pup than you realize…a pup that has “it” is easily recognized for those that can see it..you have a nice pup!

Ckirsh put it best..”Watch, learn, and pick out the techniques that suit you and your dog”. Again..this handler is not quite new at this.

I know this group..considering you have no experience..the guy did you a favor by handling your pup this go around..as time progresses this handler will have you acting as handler sooner than later provided you stick w/it.

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arkanian86
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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by arkanian86 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:02 am

All,

Thanks for your responses. As I said I am new and just trying to get outside opinions on what I experienced. To be clear that's not me in the video, it's one of the trainers.
RayGubernat wrote: I do think your dog made an amazing adjustment, first by maintaining its enthusiasm, despite having to watch the bird fly off while being jerked around as the handler tried to unclip the cord and then, with the bird long gone, to go over and stand the hot scent. You got a good one there fella. Smart, birdy and wants to please.
That's good to hear. I know my pup has much more knowledge about birds than I do!
Tooling wrote: I am inclined to suggest that this handler did more for you than your experience allows you to realize.
Probably true. It's great to also get opinions and advice from members on this forum who can provide me even more insight.

I think the next step for me is to be more clear on what I want to accomplish at the next training opportunity, and be prepared to execute it myself instead of relying 100% on others there. This was a great learning experience for me and my pup. As I said in the initial post, I'm glad everyone there was willing to help me.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by digger » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:02 pm

Take caution with training groups and training days. Just because a guy has a dog that passed a couple hunt tests doesn't mean he really has a handle on training. The guy that just can't wait to tell you how to do "it" often knows just enough to be dangerous.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by rinker » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:52 am

My understanding is that NAVHDA has their own training program. I don't think your going to get much info or see a demonstration of the West method at a NAVHDA event.

Because your pup seems to be pretty bold, I don't think any harm was done. That isn't exactly what I would do, although everyone has their own ways.

The one thing I don't understand is, why didn't he just drop the cord and let the pup drag it. Unhooking a pup at exactly the right moment one handed seems to be difficult.

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by crackerd » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:24 pm

arkanian86 wrote:I think the next step for me is to be more clear on what I want to accomplish at the next training opportunity, and be prepared to execute it myself instead of relying 100% on others there. This was a great learning experience for me and my pup. As I said in the initial post, I'm glad everyone there was willing to help me.
Yes, you need to know your goals going in - and as I said NAVHDA ain't for everybody, especially the aspects that aren't "birddoggy" in the execution of a training session. Here's the flipside of GH's remarking that at a NAVHDA training day, everybody's a pro. I remember a pointing dog pro of some renown on the East Coast who "saw" NAVHDA as a bunch of regular Joes instead of pros and thought he would roll up with his string on a big gooseneck trailer and show them pikers a thing or two about training birddogs. And probably felt sure that he would leave with a list of 10-12 new clients couldn't help but be in awe of his prowess afield on the pointing side of the training session. Then he went along with part of the group that broke off for water work and...essentially was never seen at another NAVHDA training day - not least on account of his dogs having no predisposition whatsoever for getting in the water. Which shrunk him down to piker status along with the rest of us who were there to learn - and learn by training our own dogs. So yes, you have to decide what you want to accomplish not only at the next training day but with your dog as a useful (and versatile :wink: ) hunting companion.

MG

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:35 am

Is it normal for a dog to be on a check cord the first time it has contact with a pigeon/game bird? I am not a pointy guy so my question is genuine. I kinda share pedro's feelings. I don't think you need to be worried about working a CC and all that stuff yet, the pup needs to be a pup and just chase and bust some birds. Looks like way too much control is being put in before there's anything there to even control yet. Like yelling stop at a parked car.
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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by DonF » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:12 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Is it normal for a dog to be on a check cord the first time it has contact with a pigeon/game bird? I am not a pointy guy so my question is genuine. I kinda share pedro's feelings. I don't think you need to be worried about working a CC and all that stuff yet, the pup needs to be a pup and just chase and bust some birds. Looks like way too much control is being put in before there's anything there to even control yet. Like yelling stop at a parked car.
yes and no. I went from working dog's in on a check cord about 30 yrs ago, got a set of wag Ag traps. Used right, no cc required. but I also whoa train with the original Delmar Smith method. at time's when the dog get's fairly close to you and you can grab the cc, you can give a whoa command and follow right away if need be. these days, I've got to e-collar's and in reality, cc needed very little anymore other than to teach whoa, here ect. After they are done, switch to e-collar correction. But the beginning of e-collar I still have them wear the cc. Not for any good reason I could explain.
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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by Meller » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:35 am

In regard to the check cord, there is the saying never give a command that can't be enforced and until the dog understands the command and can be collar broke it will have the check cord on it, sometimes under my control, sometimes dragging. :)

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:36 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Is it normal for a dog to be on a check cord the first time it has contact with a pigeon/game bird? I am not a pointy guy so my question is genuine. I kinda share pedro's feelings. I don't think you need to be worried about working a CC and all that stuff yet, the pup needs to be a pup and just chase and bust some birds. Looks like way too much control is being put in before there's anything there to even control yet. Like yelling stop at a parked car.
Each trainer does it differently. In my case, the answer is YES...the pup is on a checkcord. In all probability, the pup will be dragging the checkcord and I will not have my hands on it. However, I will not be far behind. I do all my training on pigeons or planted birds because that is what is available. Wild birds are not an option.

When the dog gets to the stage where it is ready to be broke steady to wing and shot...ABSOLUTELY the dog is on a checkcord and I have ahold of it.

If the puppy chases, and I certainly hope it does...at least at first... the checkcord will slow it down some and tend to discourage the chase...without me doing anything. AND... if something starts to go awry, I am usually close enough to be able to run up, grab the trailing end of the cord, or step on it and gain control of the situation, especially if it is a young pup.

I am an old fart and that is how I was taught. I only train one dog at a time, so if it takes a little longer...I'm OK with that.

RayG

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Re: First time at a NAVHDA training day...likes/dislikes

Post by JOESTEAD » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:33 pm

-
Several people recommended starting collar conditioning on my pup. Maybe this should be in the other category since he's so young??
It doesn't do any harm to put one on a young pup. I wouldn't turn it on until he's a year old.

Years ago, I had a Brittany and she never needed a shock. She was sensitive enough that I had to watch how loud I was correcting her.

The pointers I've had in the last 10 years did need a shock here and there. I think if I had put a collar on them and shocked them (for a reason, I didn't have to wait long for a reason) they would've caught on that it wasn't some mysterious being that shocked them, but the "bleep" collar. I've heard of pointers getting out of range of a collar pretty quick.

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