Steady to flush Spaniel

[Meskousing]

I have a 13-month old AWS and am in the process of trying to steady him to the flush, shot, and fall. I've progressed with him by starting with bumpers and a blank gun. He knows that game. I shoot a blank adn he sits; I throw a bumper and he sits; I shoot and throw a bumper and he sits; I throw a bumper and shoot and he sits. I also used a pigeon on a pole to progress. He does this all without an collar corrections or whistles. I think he understands the expectations of 'flush and sit until told to do otherwise.' However............ When planting pigeons he is less than consistent. I've been workign on this at least a month and he isn't the least bit consistent. Unfortunately, a lot of our reps lately have been with me as gunner and handler.

Any suggestions on how to improve our progress?

[MJB64]

Skip the planting and the shooting. Break it down to the flush and sit. You can do most of it in the yard by sitting the dog and throwing down a dizzied pigeon about six feet away. Send the dog to flush, and when he sits, fire the blank. If he won't do it in the yard, don't even bother moving to the field. I was given this advice by a pro who told me "Do that 100 times and then shoot one for him". It worked for me.

Mike

[DonF]

What is an AWS?

[welsh]

Skip the planting and the shooting. Break it down to the flush and sit. You can do most of it in the yard by sitting the dog and throwing down a dizzied pigeon about six feet away. Send the dog to flush, and when he sits, fire the blank. If he won't do it in the yard, don't even bother moving to the field.

Concur 100% with this advice.

A variation on the basic drill: if you have an assistant handy, you can have the assistant kneel near you, and then call the dog to you. The assistant's job is to release the pigeon by hand.

Another variation: start with the dog hupped and then release the pigeon right in front of him, again by hand -- the point in this case is not teaching him to hup to the flush but that he is not allowed to break and chase the bird even if it is much more exciting than a plain old dummy.

Then when moving to the field, the key is to be close to the dog when he gets the flush. Don't give him space until he's proven steady.

[Sharon]

What is an AWS?

American Water Spaniel

[gundogguy]

However............ When planting pigeons he is less than consistent. I've been workign on this at least a month and he isn't the least bit consistent. Unfortunately, a lot of our reps lately have been with me as gunner and handler.

Any suggestions on how to improve our progress?

After 1 month you are just getting started. Plan on 4-5 months. Minimally.
The suggestion that will help you improve your progress is to locate a spaniel group that trains regularly, a group that has steadied a number of dogs and are running those dog on a consistent basis.
As has been previously mentioned in this thread quit trying to manage all of the activities needed, planting handling and training and gunning. You need experienced helpers for those tasks. Not sure of your location,however if you would reveal that there is prolly someone in your locale that could direct to a Spaniel training group. Possible your breeder could also help with this task. Has breeder ever steadied an AWS? This activity demands travel time and money, if your goal is firm of having a flushing spaniel dog with manners, there are no shortcuts.
Some additional reading material http://dobbsdogs.com/library/flushing/rspan5.html
Best luck!
hal

[polmaise]

I have a 13-month old AWS and am in the process of trying to steady him to the flush, shot, and fall. I've progressed with him by starting with bumpers and a blank gun. He knows that game. I shoot a blank adn he sits; I throw a bumper and he sits; I shoot and throw a bumper and he sits; I throw a bumper and shoot and he sits. I also used a pigeon on a pole to progress. He does this all without an collar corrections or whistles. I think he understands the expectations of 'flush and sit until told to do otherwise.' However............ When planting pigeons he is less than consistent. I've been workign on this at least a month and he isn't the least bit consistent. Unfortunately, a lot of our reps lately have been with me as gunner and handler.

Any suggestions on how to improve our progress?

Red herring in the post would be the 'age' . I have had 7 month old spaniels hunting and stopping to flush of a bird and shot and fall. and also had 18 month old spaniels at that stage.
Progression is based on where you are now , Pigeons on a pole to progress is not something I am personally familiar with ,nor needed so I'll discard it..
When introducing 'live game' and the scent or essence of it , It's like starting all over again ?..perhaps that's where You should start.
Your post on another forum will give different if not 'in-different' replies, so that should further confuse you as you omitted that you are following a program that involves e-collar conditioning ,but You are achieving and happy with results so far with Non-collar training .

[Meskousing]

Skip the planting and the shooting. Break it down to the flush and sit. You can do most of it in the yard by sitting the dog and throwing down a dizzied pigeon about six feet away. Send the dog to flush, and when he sits, fire the blank. If he won't do it in the yard, don't even bother moving to the field. I was given this advice by a pro who told me "Do that 100 times and then shoot one for him". It worked for me.

Mike

Breaking it down makes perfect sense. Sometimes the answers are so simple I don't always see them. Thanks. To clarify: Am I to dizzy the pigeon; release the dog; bird flushes; dog is commanded to sit (I don't use 'hup'); fire the blank?

[Meskousing]

Skip the planting and the shooting. Break it down to the flush and sit. You can do most of it in the yard by sitting the dog and throwing down a dizzied pigeon about six feet away. Send the dog to flush, and when he sits, fire the blank. If he won't do it in the yard, don't even bother moving to the field.

Concur 100% with this advice.

A variation on the basic drill: if you have an assistant handy, you can have the assistant kneel near you, and then call the dog to you. The assistant's job is to release the pigeon by hand.

Another variation: start with the dog hupped and then release the pigeon right in front of him, again by hand -- the point in this case is not teaching him to hup to the flush but that he is not allowed to break and chase the bird even if it is much more exciting than a plain old dummy.

Then when moving to the field, the key is to be close to the dog when he gets the flush. Don't give him space until he's proven steady.

Makes sense. Thanks for the ideas.

[Meskousing]

However............ When planting pigeons he is less than consistent. I've been workign on this at least a month and he isn't the least bit consistent. Unfortunately, a lot of our reps lately have been with me as gunner and handler.

Any suggestions on how to improve our progress?

After 1 month you are just getting started. Plan on 4-5 months. Minimally.
The suggestion that will help you improve your progress is to locate a spaniel group that trains regularly, a group that has steadied a number of dogs and are running those dog on a consistent basis.
As has been previously mentioned in this thread quit trying to manage all of the activities needed, planting handling and training and gunning. You need experienced helpers for those tasks. Not sure of your location,however if you would reveal that there is prolly someone in your locale that could direct to a Spaniel training group. Possible your breeder could also help with this task. Has breeder ever steadied an AWS? This activity demands travel time and money, if your goal is firm of having a flushing spaniel dog with manners, there are no shortcuts.
Some additional reading material http://dobbsdogs.com/library/flushing/rspan5.html
Best luck!
hal

I have looked for spaniel groups and retriever groups. There are none within 1.5 hours of me. I work weekends and have to watch a lot of little league, so weekend training sessions are almost impossible for me to attend. Which means, it's difficult to find someone to train on a Tuesday morning, too. I train with an amateur spaniel trainer that competes his dogs- that's the best I can do, but we can't always make our schedules work.

Thanks for the link and advice.

[Meskousing]

Red herring in the post would be the 'age' . I have had 7 month old spaniels hunting and stopping to flush of a bird and shot and fall. and also had 18 month old spaniels at that stage.
Progression is based on where you are now , Pigeons on a pole to progress is not something I am personally familiar with ,nor needed so I'll discard it..
When introducing 'live game' and the scent or essence of it , It's like starting all over again ?..perhaps that's where You should start.
Your post on another forum will give different if not 'in-different' replies, so that should further confuse you as you omitted that you are following a program that involves e-collar conditioning ,but You are achieving and happy with results so far with Non-collar training .[/quote]

To clarify: I am using an e-collar.

Yes, I have posted elsewhere in the interwebs. I've posted on here before and got the proverbial 'crickets chirping.'

[MJB64]

Skip the planting and the shooting. Break it down to the flush and sit. You can do most of it in the yard by sitting the dog and throwing down a dizzied pigeon about six feet away. Send the dog to flush, and when he sits, fire the blank. If he won't do it in the yard, don't even bother moving to the field. I was given this advice by a pro who told me "Do that 100 times and then shoot one for him". It worked for me.

Mike

Breaking it down makes perfect sense. Sometimes the answers are so simple I don't always see them. Thanks. To clarify: Am I to dizzy the pigeon; release the dog; bird flushes; dog is commanded to sit (I don't use 'hup'); fire the blank?

Yes.

[gundogguy]

Skip the planting and the shooting. Break it down to the flush and sit. You can do most of it in the yard by sitting the dog and throwing down a dizzied pigeon about six feet away. Send the dog to flush, and when he sits, fire the blank. If he won't do it in the yard, don't even bother moving to the field. I was given this advice by a pro who told me "Do that 100 times and then shoot one for him". It worked for me.

Mike

Breaking it down makes perfect sense. Sometimes the answers are so simple I don't always see them. Thanks. To clarify: Am I to dizzy the pigeon; release the dog; bird flushes; dog is commanded to sit (I don't use 'hup'); fire the blank?

Yes.

I might make that a cautionary "Yes" Leaving the blank gunshot out of the session for a time or two. Or leave the bird out of the session take the dog for a run fire blank with no verbal or whistle commands and see if the dog with sit on just the blank shot alone. if so then add a flyer back into the equation.
Due to your pups age I would also consider one of the many excellent Pros that live in your, there are several that have trained AWS's and understand the conflicts of steading the older pup.

[Meskousing]

All, thank you for the advice.

I've been on the Lighthouse Kennels website in the past, but that is 3+ hours one way from me. If anyone knows of other pro spaniel trainers or groups in northcentral/ northeast WI, feel free to enlighten me. I'm about 50 miles northeast of Wausau.

[gundogguy]

All, thank you for the advice.

I've been on the Lighthouse Kennels website in the past, but that is 3+ hours one way from me. If anyone knows of other pro spaniel trainers or groups in northcentral/ northeast WI, feel free to enlighten me. I'm about 50 miles northeast of Wausau.

So if Jason Givens is, who has done a serious amount of training of the minor breed Spaniels and show type spaniels is to far to drive.
Have you had any contact with Jeff Swartz in Fox River area who has an equally strong background in minor breed spaniels and show dogs. I had last heard that Jeff had made over 50 Master titled spaniels in the Spaniel hunt test program, he has had to train and steady a wide variety personality types and dogs of different talent levels. Another would be Steve Pappas, Portage area
. Training dogs is not a "go to corner store proposition" you will have "pay for it in time,travel.and dollars".
I live in Three rivers, Michigan back in the day my training classes were Cincinnati 12 hours round trip, and Burlington, Wiscon. 8 hour round trip, I did that for 3yrs finished 3 dogs during that time. From then on the experience and knowledge I gain were the foundation for the rest of my training life. My dogs really benefited by the effort and motivation I invested.

[crackerd]

Gundogguy, I bow not to your fierce determination for training up a gundog (well, that too), but to your reading Meskousing the gundog training riot act/facts of training life manifesto. It don't come easy...but it does come with the territory of a beginning trainer who'll go to any lengths to finish a gundog.

MG

[polmaise]

I have looked for spaniel groups and retriever groups. There are none within 1.5 hours of me. I work weekends and have to watch a lot of little league, so weekend training sessions are almost impossible for me to attend. Which means, it's difficult to find someone to train on a Tuesday morning, too. I train with an amateur spaniel trainer that competes his dogs- that's the best I can do, but we can't always make our schedules work.

Thanks for the link and advice.

I get many 'Tuesday dog Handlers' . ....Every Tuesday ....,who do very little with the dog between Wednesday and Monday and they keep coming which is nice.
I get the occasional any day any time any where handler who does remedial work in between these sessions.
One of these types I regularly see and the other Not so much.
I get constant communication by phone or e-mail from one of these type and an occasional text or call from the other to report their success.
I don't know Your area,but that doesn't matter