Gun Dog Forum

Anyone know of a good resource for basic pointing dogs training videos. Im struggling with some of the basic commands with my pup and want to research a few different techniques without spending hundreds on DVDs. It would even be good if they were teasers for the actual videos so I know if I want to get them or not. Just curious about which techniques are working for people.

www.higginsgundogs.com

He has a youtube channel as well, HigginsGundogs.

Depends on what you are teaching; you really need a progressive program. Have a look at "Perfect Start. Perfect Finish"

Not very expensive: http://www.gundogsupply.com/pestpefisetd1.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNotUXUi4IU

George Hickox are pretty straight forward and easy to use and understand...................Cj

Gibbons-West method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANFRuc0 ... _BhV0bVbPR

Thanks Guys, I should have been more clear in my original post. I made it when I was rushing out the door. These are good suggestions, I own the Perfect Start/Finish set and I have seen some higgins videos.
The command I am really struggling with is heel. "Louis" is 11 months old and I have been working him for quite some time on this and no matter how much time I spend on it he doesn't seem to make any improvements. He is a very smart dog with a great nose but ridiculously stubborn with obedience training. We have been able to overcome some major obstacles in the last few weeks but "heel" is not one of them.
Louis wasn't huge on fetch and hated the water but we have made great strides there lately, he knows "whoa" and gets better with that all the time. I've included a video link of our training sessions today so you can see where we are at. I know it isn't perfect but I'm not shooting for that, I'm learning from this as much as he is. I would love to hear your feedback.
https://youtu.be/-a1Qz_NUipg

I only watched about 7 minutes worth, but it looks to me like you have way too much tension on that lead. Your dog looks very uncomfortable at the heel position because of it, and maybe that's the reason he isn't doing well. With linked chain collars (choke chain) and prong collars, the discomfort to the dog should happen when the dog is not in position. While he is in correct position, the lead should be loose with not pressure from the collar.

I'm working my young dog the old-fashioned way. He has a choke collar and a six foot lead. We walk on a loose lead and when he forges, lags, or goes the wrong direction, I make a sharp turn the opposite way while giving him a sharp tug or series of tugs. It's pop-pop-pop release until he gets into correct position. Then loose lead again until his next infraction. Pop-release. This way he feels correction when he's not heeling, and there's no pressure while he is in heel position.

From your video, your dog is getting correction no matter where he is or what he's doing. It looks like he doesn't know what to do to turn the pressure off.

With my other dogs I've used a wonder lead a la Rick /Ronnie Smith Silent Command System and it worked well. I'm not using that method with this dog because command lead = gloves for me, and it's too stinkin' hot for gloves. The command lead is the same idea, pop the dog into correct position then leave off the pressure.

Good luck, you'll get it with a few little adjustments.

shags wrote:I only watched about 7 minutes worth, but it looks to me like you have way too much tension on that lead. Your dog looks very uncomfortable at the heel position because of it, and maybe that's the reason he isn't doing well. With linked chain collars (choke chain) and prong collars, the discomfort to the dog should happen when the dog is not in position. While he is in correct position, the lead should be loose with not pressure from the collar.

I'm working my young dog the old-fashioned way. He has a choke collar and a six foot lead. We walk on a loose lead and when he forges, lags, or goes the wrong direction, I make a sharp turn the opposite way while giving him a sharp tug or series of tugs. It's pop-pop-pop release until he gets into correct position. Then loose lead again until his next infraction. Pop-release. This way he feels correction when he's not heeling, and there's no pressure while he is in heel position.

From your video, your dog is getting correction no matter where he is or what he's doing. It looks like he doesn't know what to do to turn the pressure off.

With my other dogs I've used a wonder lead a la Rick /Ronnie Smith Silent Command System and it worked well. I'm not using that method with this dog because command lead = gloves for me, and it's too stinkin' hot for gloves. The command lead is the same idea, pop the dog into correct position then leave off the pressure.

Good luck, you'll get it with a few little adjustments.

thanks Shags, I agree that the lead looks tight and I was expecting a comment about that. What you can't see a good portion of the time is he wants to pull ahead and stay too far forward in the heel position, when I loosen up, he faints out to the side more than what would be acceptable and starts to pull again. I do see some times after watching this video when he may be cooperating a little more than others and I didn't release the tension. I will try backing off a little but we will have to see how that goes. The rest of everything he does is going so well. You didn't stay long enough for the other things we work on but he fights me on those a little bit as well, not nearly to the extent of the heel. I appreciate all good hearted feedback.

Loosen that lead for heeling so the dog can make a choice. Don't keep walking when the dog is out of position. Stop.
If I'm sure my dog knows what "heel" means I use the e collar correction. Happy dog who is watching you carefully. Enjoy.

Sharon wrote:Loosen that lead for heeling so the dog can make a choice. Don't keep walking when the dog is out of position. Stop.
If I'm sure my dog knows what "heel" means I use the e collar correction. Happy dog who is watching you carefully. Enjoy.

Thanks Sharon, he's my best bud. Funny how a dog will love you more than any person ever could.

Constant tension leads to more pulling and you have no way to correct him. Loose lead gives you the ability to make corrections, When the dog forges, you can stop cold or do an abrupt about turn. Pop him good or if he has a good head of steam by himself, let him hit the end of the lead at full speed. Then loose lead again. If your dog heels wide, make sharp right turns and pop him. If he crowds you, go sharp left and give him your knee. The idea is to go the opposite way of his wrong way, in order to teach him that the best option is at the correct position.

As Sharon pointed out, you need to allow him to make the right choice.

shags wrote:Constant tension leads to more pulling and you have no way to correct him. Loose lead gives you the ability to make corrections, When the dog forges, you can stop cold or do an abrupt about turn. Pop him good or if he has a good head of steam by himself, let him hit the end of the lead at full speed. Then loose lead again. If your dog heels wide, make sharp right turns and pop him. If he crowds you, go sharp left and give him your knee. The idea is to go the opposite way of his wrong way, in order to teach him that the best option is at the correct position.

As Sharon pointed out, you need to allow him to make the right choice.

Im gunna try it out, thanks, and good job explaining it. I guess I have been blessed with dogs who didn't make me work too much lol. Im learning so much from him.

Over the years I have become less interested in heel. Now days I focus on "go with me / come to me" on a check cord. However, when we get into "sled dog" mode, reversing direction is the cure.

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Over the years I have become less interested in heel. Now days I focus on "go with me / come to me" on a check cord. However, when we get into "sled dog" mode, reversing direction is the cure.

I just like a dog who heels. I used to train and raise show dogs so maybe its just part of me but I can see how it may not be as important to some people. But I also want to get into some NAVHDA stuff

DeLo -

I think the ladies nailed it. You are applying constant pressure when the dog is at heel. The dog does not know what you want. He looks really confused. It is obvious that he is trying, but ....

I would suggest that you start with the dog at your side, at WHOA. Then put on whatever type slip collar you choose, pinch, prong, choke, wonderlead, looped checkcord....with the dog still at whoa. Put the loop right up there behind the dog's ears. Then square yourself up to the dog so that his nose is right up there by your knee. The lead should be "just" slack... no pressure on the dog, but "just".

Then stand there for a few seconds. Then give the dog the command "heel" and simultaneously step off and GENTLY pop the cord. Take exactly ONE step and stop. If you need to re-set the dog r yourself to the exact correct position...do so, again gently but silently and matter of factly. When ready, command heel, pop cord and take one step...all simultaneously.

You want the dog to understand that it will be perfectly safe and comfortable when his nose is "glued" to your knee. That is going to take some repetitions.

Don't be in a hurry with this. The slower and more deliberate you are with the re-introduction...the faster the dog will get the picture. You arfe initially striving for perfection, from the dog, yes...but also from you in terms of proper positioning and correct timing.

One of the things I do is to have the dog at heel, at my side and then issue a stop and stand or whoa command by using my upraised palm "stop sign". Then I walk out front and simulate a flush., or walk to oneside or the other of the dog. I can then walk back up to the dog, get in the correct postion and then pick the lead back up. If your dog is solid on whoa, and it seems pretty good from the video, you can use that to get you both positioned correctly.

I basically do heel/whoa drills after the manner of Paul Long in his book "Training Pointing Dogs". He used a looped checkcord, with the cord running through the snap to create a slip lead. I use a pigging string(variation on the Smith wonder lead) initially and then progress to a prong collar and finally to an e-collar. The waxed cotton of the string has a spring action that helps to turn the pressure on and off all by itself, improving my timing.

RayG

RayGubernat wrote:DeLo -

I think the ladies nailed it. You are applying constant pressure when the dog is at heel. The dog does not know what you want. He looks really confused. It is obvious that he is trying, but ....

I would suggest that you start with the dog at your side, at WHOA. Then put on whatever type slip collar you choose, pinch, prong, choke, wonderlead, looped checkcord....with the dog still at whoa. Put the loop right up there behind the dog's ears. Then square yourself up to the dog so that his nose is right up there by your knee. The lead should be "just" slack... no pressure on the dog, but "just".

Then stand there for a few seconds. Then give the dog the command "heel" and simultaneously step off and GENTLY pop the cord. Take exactly ONE step and stop. If you need to re-set the dog r yourself to the exact correct position...do so, again gently but silently and matter of factly. When ready, command heel, pop cord and take one step...all simultaneously.

You want the dog to understand that it will be perfectly safe and comfortable when his nose is "glued" to your knee. That is going to take some repetitions.

Don't be in a hurry with this. The slower and more deliberate you are with the re-introduction...the faster the dog will get the picture. You arfe initially striving for perfection, from the dog, yes...but also from you in terms of proper positioning and correct timing.

One of the things I do is to have the dog at heel, at my side and then issue a stop and stand or whoa command by using my upraised palm "stop sign". Then I walk out front and simulate a flush., or walk to oneside or the other of the dog. I can then walk back up to the dog, get in the correct postion and then pick the lead back up. If your dog is solid on whoa, and it seems pretty good from the video, you can use that to get you both positioned correctly.

I basically do heel/whoa drills after the manner of Paul Long in his book "Training Pointing Dogs". He used a looped checkcord, with the cord running through the snap to create a slip lead. I use a pigging string(variation on the Smith wonder lead) initially and then progress to a prong collar and finally to an e-collar. The waxed cotton of the string has a spring action that helps to turn the pressure on and off all by itself, improving my timing.

RayG

This is great ray, thanks for the detailed response. Thats why I come here. Ive been training just long enough to know that you don't know what you think you know, you know? Would you suggest abandoning the prong collar and going back to the beginning with the slip lead?

DeLo -

Absolutely. I suggest that that you go back to the very beginning with the heel. Remember ...minimal pressure...set the dog up to do it right before you do anything and take it one step at a time...literally and figuratively. I would suggest getting a wonder lead or pigging string to start off with. It will be less pressure and your timing will improve.

That is a very nice dog and you can see that he is trying to do what he thinks you want him to do.

RayG

RayGubernat wrote:DeLo -

Absolutely. I suggest that that you go back to the very beginning with the heel. Remember ...minimal pressure...set the dog up to do it right before you do anything and take it one step at a time...literally and figuratively. I would suggest getting a wonder lead or pigging string to start off with. It will be less pressure and your timing will improve.

That is a very nice dog and you can see that he is trying to do what he thinks you want him to do.

RayG

Thanks! He's extremely cooperative and such a good boy. He's a little mad at me right now because I just built him a new run so I don't have to kennel him while I'm gone, and he's always a little nervous about new spaces lol