retrieve distances

[Trekmoor]

Yesterday evening I had an interesting evening out with some Labrador handlers. I set out a few retrieves for them and it was very noticeable that the longer distance marked retrieves were usually done easily and well but the short distance retrieves of under 40 yards were done very poorly !

All of the labs were field test winners and I think their owners have become over-obsessed with field test length retrieve distances. I ended the evening by reminding the handlers that in the "real world" most birds will fall less than 50 yards out from them. The labs were overshooting close in marked retrieves sometimes by considerable distances and therefor needed to be handled ......that should not happen with marked retrieves and especially not with short distance ones.

Do you folk see much the same thing at training classes in the U.S. ?

Bill T.

[Timewise65]

Yep, what you observed is 'normal' for those who compete in Field Trials! Running in trials is a competitive event for Retrievers. Dogs that earn titles in these events become very valuable for breeding purposes, because only the best are successful. In those trials average marks go 150- 250 yards, Blinds also can be out over 150yds. This has occurred over the years to help separate the exceptional dogs over those that cannot compete. Most of the trainers I know, do work their dogs at varying distances both short and long. If you do not do this, you will get beat, as some judges will set up a short blind or mark, just to see how well rounded the dogs are. But, all trials have some very complex long distance marks...

As a duck hunter is not unusual for a wounded bird to glide or swim out over 150-200yds.

those of us that run in Hunt Tests (running to a standard set of tests not competitive) rarely see a mark over 150yds. Most marks are between 60 and 120 yds....these titles are also treasured by dog breeders and owners, but not as much as Field Champions....

[gundogguy]

+1 Agreed! Going deep is what is strive for But the short mark in ,say, a triple is usually the challenge.
Upland dogs have the same issues. It is about the conditioning they receive. Though distances are usually much less. The old saying goes something like this that you will hear in training groups,the instruction to the guns " I would rather have my dogs birds missed at 50 yards then killed at 20".

[crackerd]

Do you folk see much the same thing at training classes in the U.S. ?

Bill, it's not the short distances that give the dogs problems, it's how they're trained for FTs (as gundogguy and timewise hinted) at far greater distances than is humanly possible to shoot a duck (or pheasant), and the "concepts" that go into making the short retrieves tricky if not downright dastardly. I should also point out that timewise's "averages" for marked retrieves in field trials (multiple marks) are now nearer the 250-400 yard range and blind retrieves more distant still. But again it's not the distances short or long that explicitly cause the dogs difficulty, it's how those marked retrieves (multiple marks) are used in combination for a particular concept.

Such as a middle indent retired triple, which I could explain from now through the next leap year and it probably would still come off as confusing unless you saw it for yourself. In short, it's a triple with the first or second bird down at say 150 yards and the first or second bird following or preceding at 250-300 yards and then the third bird down a live flyer shot at 300 yards as the "go-bird," given the dogs' enthusiasm for getting a live bird shot for them instead of a dead bird thrown for them to retrieve. When the dog goes for the "flyer" (live bird), the middle thrower/gun "retires" (hides). When the dog comes back with the fresh-shot bird, it naturally wants to go for the "other" long bird, given that FT retrievers are trained to go "short, long, longer" in sequence for their retrieves. They often "blow past" the middle retired bird when sent for it as the second retrieve, and...in short, "yer outta there" insofar as continuing in a field trial. Thus concepts, bless 'em.

Flip side is, some British (import) retrievers excel in our hunt tests, because the distances are "just right" for them at >100< yards on marks and blinds. Meanwhile, the indigenous product, coming from North American FT lines, and often trained at field trial distances even when running hunt tests, will overshoot a mark or get so excited by having birds shot for them at closer distances, they will "lose it" with either line manners that could lead to running in or they will have their memory (on a multiple mark) "lost for them" by that more exciting bird that comes cackling or quacking into the test in the multiple mark sequence.

MG

[Trekmoor]

Thanks folks, my thoughts on this subject are now confirmed. It's the handlers that are causing this problem and not the dogs "having" this problem !

In Britain you have more chance of having to do a 200 yards retrieve in a test than you do on a shoot day.......unless, as I have seen some field trial minded pickers-up do, you manipulate the situation on the average shoot to ensure retrieves will be long or awkward ones for your dog.

Most keepers do not like this being done . They rightly say that pickers up are there to put shot birds in the bag and not to faff about with field trial stuff on their shoot days.

What rammed home to me that the labs I saw a couple of evenings ago were being specifically trained to suit tests was that my springer, now 17-18 months old was finding the shorter retrieves the labs had such trouble with very easily. My springer doesn't have a clue about long marks yet and has even less of a clue about blind retrieves but his saving grace is that he loves retrieving, marks well and holds his ground on a mark very well.

That evening, where short distance marks were concerned, it was a case of "spaniels rule, O.K. !"

Bill T.

[gonehuntin']

It is not the distance, it's the configuration.

[polmaise]

Gonehuntin +1
Most have not trained to 'mark the fall' , more the thing in the sky ,and terrain is a huge obstacle with 'depth of vision' for a retrieve .
The spaniel in this case has always had a 'fall' within it's distance . A 300 metre retrieve on flat ground has never really impressed me ,nor has a 150 metre retrieve on a far facing hill.

[CDN_Cocker]

I think it is just what the dog becomes accustomed to... My own cocker finds most of his retrieves within the same distance (due to my personal training geography). If a retrieve falls short of that (or farther), even though he sees it, he still runs past (or short) of it and hunts the area where he is usually successful. My distances aren't as pronounced though as those in the retriever game.

[Trekmoor]

Because I usually train on my own and throw my own dummies it often does take a while for my dogs, of any breed, to get the hang of doing retrieves that are greatly beyond the distance I can throw a dummy.
My spaniel would have tended to short mark the long retrieves I gave the labs......so I didn't send him beyond about 50 -60 yards. The lab folk had moved on from those shorter distances in their training but had made the assumption that their dogs would remember about how to do short marks.

They'd not done short marks for a long time but they had done long ones and dogs tend to be creatures of habit so they overshot the short marks and "ran long." I expect to see those dogs again next week and I wonder if their owners will have been doing short marks this week !

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Stand alone marks would be better (imo) It helps mark the fall ! and also good for the other issue of when training alone , the dummy can be marked at close or far away distances .