E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
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E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
So, I'm afraid I confused my dog and/or failed to properly introduce the e-collar. I began by letting her wear it for a while and I would always bring out a pheasant wing or play with her to associate it with fun. She loves when I bring it out but I'm afraid I introduced it wrong.
She is a 10 month old Irish Setter. She does knows the command "come" and performs it really well for the most part. After she ran away from me once or twice, I decided it was time to really start e-collar training. After reading up on it and talking to people, I started by getting her to stay and then on light stimulation, tried to get her to come. Initially I would do a nick just to get her to stay and then a nick to come, while pulling on her lead.
I'm doing extremely low stimulation (setting 1-2 on a Garmin XC) and I can see her react to it BUT, the issue is, when I command "come" and do light stimulation, she stays. The only time she will come with stimulation is if I pull on her lead. I stopped nicking her at all for stay b/c she listens really well with it, and I'm more concerned with her coming to me in the field. I have been trying to get her to come with light stimulation but she stands dead still when I command "come" with light stimulation...
Honestly, when I pull out the e-collar she is excited and lets me put it on. She even comes for the most part but when she doesn't listen and I try to command come with an associated stimulation, she will just stand dead still. Otherwise, without stimulation and without the e-collar, she comes just fine.
Please help - I'm looking for constructive criticism, not destructive criticism. Thanks!
She is a 10 month old Irish Setter. She does knows the command "come" and performs it really well for the most part. After she ran away from me once or twice, I decided it was time to really start e-collar training. After reading up on it and talking to people, I started by getting her to stay and then on light stimulation, tried to get her to come. Initially I would do a nick just to get her to stay and then a nick to come, while pulling on her lead.
I'm doing extremely low stimulation (setting 1-2 on a Garmin XC) and I can see her react to it BUT, the issue is, when I command "come" and do light stimulation, she stays. The only time she will come with stimulation is if I pull on her lead. I stopped nicking her at all for stay b/c she listens really well with it, and I'm more concerned with her coming to me in the field. I have been trying to get her to come with light stimulation but she stands dead still when I command "come" with light stimulation...
Honestly, when I pull out the e-collar she is excited and lets me put it on. She even comes for the most part but when she doesn't listen and I try to command come with an associated stimulation, she will just stand dead still. Otherwise, without stimulation and without the e-collar, she comes just fine.
Please help - I'm looking for constructive criticism, not destructive criticism. Thanks!
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Why are you nicking her along with the command? She doesn't know why she is being corrected.
She already knows the recall command.
The ecollar is used to reinforce or correct for a command that is known but ignored.
When you recall your dog, and she obeys, do not nick her.
If you give the recall command and she ignores it, nick her. As she complies, praise.
She already knows the recall command.
The ecollar is used to reinforce or correct for a command that is known but ignored.
When you recall your dog, and she obeys, do not nick her.
If you give the recall command and she ignores it, nick her. As she complies, praise.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Some of the stuff I was reading up on said that you would stimulate as a point of contact in much the same way a leash put pressure on her to come when I pull. When you say it like that, I feel stupid, but it makes a lot of sense.shags wrote:Why are you nicking her along with the command? She doesn't know why she is being corrected.
So if she doesn't obey with the command by itself and she subsequently doesn't come when I command with a nick, what is my next step? She just stops dead still.
Thanks for the input.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnPGYyeIeNw
It's one thing reading about a process, it's another watching someone actually do it.
Check out this video on YouTube. It may help...or confuse. ..I hope it helps
It's one thing reading about a process, it's another watching someone actually do it.
Check out this video on YouTube. It may help...or confuse. ..I hope it helps
Tom
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Thanks for the video Gordon Guy. So this is where I feel like I'm working on "come" WITH light stimulation. It looks like I definitely need to do more work with the lead/check cord and e-collar together, so that the stimulations (lead stim and e-collar stim) are happening together until she/we are much more confident with it.
So then, in this instance, light stimulation is always given with the command. This is a different training process than Shags' recommendation in only nicking if she doesn't listen. Or, should I call "come" without any stimulation, and if she doesn't listen call "come" with light stimulation and a tug of the lead/check cord? i.e. Should I only stimulate and pull on the lead when she doesn't listen the first time, or should I always stimulate (and pull a lead) when commanding "come?"
Obviously the lead would come off then when we are both confident.
Thank you for all of the help...I just want to do this right and be consistent.
So then, in this instance, light stimulation is always given with the command. This is a different training process than Shags' recommendation in only nicking if she doesn't listen. Or, should I call "come" without any stimulation, and if she doesn't listen call "come" with light stimulation and a tug of the lead/check cord? i.e. Should I only stimulate and pull on the lead when she doesn't listen the first time, or should I always stimulate (and pull a lead) when commanding "come?"
Obviously the lead would come off then when we are both confident.
Thank you for all of the help...I just want to do this right and be consistent.
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
.Twhjelmgren28 wrote:. Initially I would do a nick just to get her to stay and then a nick to come, while pulling on her lead.
It kind of sounds like you were trying to condition the dog to the collar on two commands at the same time and you confused the dog.
I collar conditioned pretty much the same as in the video above (trained the behavior with leash first then added the collar with the leash) but I only trained one command at a time and spent about a week on that command before moving on to the next command.
It seems that using that nick for stay and then using it for come is just too confusing. If it was me I would drop the nick for stay for a start.
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Then I would drop back to reminding her with a cc, or in a controlled environment where I could run her down. When she's solid again, try again at large.
When my young dogs are out at a distance, and I call them in or ask them to turn, I give the command and give them a second or two to make their decision. If they comply, great. If they blow me off, they get nicked without further command. Timing has to be good, can't nick too soon or too late. Once they comply after the nick, I don't make a huge fuss, maybe an "All right let's go" or something like that.
Also, don't overdo the training. One or at most two times is plenty. Multiple reps can mess things up. Lots of times I let my dogs do their thing, and call them in only when I'm ready to quit, and happy time them home.
When they're super compliant with the collar, I try them without and chase them down to correct if they mess up.
After many years of experience with Irish Setters, I'd caution you to be careful to think out what you're doing to be certain that your dog understands what you're teaching. Some breeds can tolerate trainer error, but IME Irish are not one of them. They'll turn themselves inside out for you, but once they're done, that's it. YMMV with your dog, but in general that's how I've seen it go.
Good luck, just take it slow and don't get in a hurry.
When my young dogs are out at a distance, and I call them in or ask them to turn, I give the command and give them a second or two to make their decision. If they comply, great. If they blow me off, they get nicked without further command. Timing has to be good, can't nick too soon or too late. Once they comply after the nick, I don't make a huge fuss, maybe an "All right let's go" or something like that.
Also, don't overdo the training. One or at most two times is plenty. Multiple reps can mess things up. Lots of times I let my dogs do their thing, and call them in only when I'm ready to quit, and happy time them home.
When they're super compliant with the collar, I try them without and chase them down to correct if they mess up.
After many years of experience with Irish Setters, I'd caution you to be careful to think out what you're doing to be certain that your dog understands what you're teaching. Some breeds can tolerate trainer error, but IME Irish are not one of them. They'll turn themselves inside out for you, but once they're done, that's it. YMMV with your dog, but in general that's how I've seen it go.
Good luck, just take it slow and don't get in a hurry.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Thank you all for the help. I'll slow it down and not overdo it with her. Thanks again!
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
X2chrokeva wrote:.Twhjelmgren28 wrote:. Initially I would do a nick just to get her to stay and then a nick to come, while pulling on her lead.
It kind of sounds like you were trying to condition the dog to the collar on two commands at the same time and you confused the dog.
I collar conditioned pretty much the same as in the video above (trained the behavior with leash first then added the collar with the leash) but I only trained one command at a time and spent about a week on that command before moving on to the next command.
It seems that using that nick for stay and then using it for come is just too confusing. If it was me I would drop the nick for stay for a start.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Personally I would just condition re-call .
This honestly does not require an e-collar. You can 'overlay' this known command later ....
''Come'' means Good .If the dog and handler don't have this ....? well I suppose you can make a dog do almost anything it is physically capable of doing , but making a dog ''want'' to do something is conditioning training. Ensuring a dog responds to a known conditioned behaviour is a level beyond both dog and owner by use of a tool not understood. (imho)
This honestly does not require an e-collar. You can 'overlay' this known command later ....
''Come'' means Good .If the dog and handler don't have this ....? well I suppose you can make a dog do almost anything it is physically capable of doing , but making a dog ''want'' to do something is conditioning training. Ensuring a dog responds to a known conditioned behaviour is a level beyond both dog and owner by use of a tool not understood. (imho)
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
polmaise wrote:Personally I would just condition re-call .
This honestly does not require an e-collar. You can 'overlay' this known command later ....
''Come'' means Good .If the dog and handler don't have this ....? well I suppose you can make a dog do almost anything it is physically capable of doing , but making a dog ''want'' to do something is conditioning training. Ensuring a dog responds to a known conditioned behaviour is a level beyond both dog and owner by use of a tool not understood. (imho)
This is a very good point.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Polmaise,
I appreciate your input and she is praised with come; in fact much of the time she listens wonderfully, even without the e-collar. We've been working on it since before I had an e-collar. Since that time, she has escaped me and run across busy roads and has gotten into modes where she will not listen and I don't want my dog to get hit by a car. I'm not really looking to get into a discussion about whether or not to use an e-collar, I have it for a reason and I would like to know how to use it properly and effectively. Thanks.
I appreciate your input and she is praised with come; in fact much of the time she listens wonderfully, even without the e-collar. We've been working on it since before I had an e-collar. Since that time, she has escaped me and run across busy roads and has gotten into modes where she will not listen and I don't want my dog to get hit by a car. I'm not really looking to get into a discussion about whether or not to use an e-collar, I have it for a reason and I would like to know how to use it properly and effectively. Thanks.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I just want to add that I'm trying to get the behavior conditioned AND understand the proper use of the tool. If you have anything to add regarding effective e-collar training, I'm all ears.polmaise wrote:Ensuring a dog responds to a known conditioned behaviour is a level beyond both dog and owner by use of a tool not understood.
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Can't offer any advice on e-collar training and or conditioning until the 'known commands' behaviour is /has been understood by both dog and owner. Sorry.
Wish you well with the dog .
Wish you well with the dog .
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
An e-collar has no special power to prevent your dog being hit by a car. This is a function of training, which can be accomplished with or without a collar.Twhjelmgren28 wrote:... she has escaped me and run across busy roads and has gotten into modes where she will not listen and I don't want my dog to get hit by a car. I'm not really looking to get into a discussion about whether or not to use an e-collar, I have it for a reason ....
It seems you are determined to use the collar to train the recall. Fair enough, but it's important to understand that the collar is just a tool, and if you can't get reliable recall without the collar then the problem is with basic obedience. People have successfully trained basic obedience without collars for decades. You need to think clearly about what you expect to accomplish with the collar and how you expect to do it, because as you said right off the top, so far you've simply confused the dog. She doesn't know whether to stay or come.
I'd suggest you do what you seem not to want to do: stop using the collar. When something isn't working, it's time to take a step back. Stop using the collar, rebuild the recall, and then reintroduce the collar at a later time. I'm sure you'll get tons of helpful advice on how to do that when the time comes.
You already know what the problem is. "I'm afraid I confused my dog," and "I'm afraid I introduced it wrong." Remember rule #1: when things go wrong, take a step back. If the dog is confused as to what stimulation means, it's time to take that step back, let it be forgotten, and then come back to it later.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
My questions were answered a while ago.
Like I said, I'm not looking to get into a discussion about whether or not to use the collar. I've mentioned several times that she does usually come with or without the collar but I don't think posts are fully read.
Thank you everyone and I'm done with the post.
Like I said, I'm not looking to get into a discussion about whether or not to use the collar. I've mentioned several times that she does usually come with or without the collar but I don't think posts are fully read.
I'm just going to ignore that quote as it is extremely condescending, as is:welsh wrote: An e-collar has no special power to prevent your dog being hit by a car.
These are the reasons I'm hesitant to post on here and why I respectfully requested constructive criticism. I got it early on. I do appreciate ALL of the responses, however, as well as the knowledge out there.polmaise wrote:Can't offer any advice on e-collar training and or conditioning until the 'known commands' behaviour is /has been understood by both dog and owner. Sorry.
Wish you well with the dog .
Thank you everyone and I'm done with the post.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
First, an ecollar ALWAYS should do three things: Push, Pull, Stop.
Pushing the dog from you is force fetch or kennel.
Pull is the HERE command.
Stop is whoa.
If you only train on one command, that command becomes the dog's default response and when other commands are given, the dog ignores them, defaulting to the command it was taught. This is why it's important that once the dog is totally obedience trained, you again go through it with the collar and the dog on leash so you can guide the cog through the stimulation a and keep it from bolting. I command and about every third command, stimulate to reinforce the command. I don't for the dog to refuse or I'd never get it trained.
Training on all three commands will give you a well balanced and functional electric dog.
Pushing the dog from you is force fetch or kennel.
Pull is the HERE command.
Stop is whoa.
If you only train on one command, that command becomes the dog's default response and when other commands are given, the dog ignores them, defaulting to the command it was taught. This is why it's important that once the dog is totally obedience trained, you again go through it with the collar and the dog on leash so you can guide the cog through the stimulation a and keep it from bolting. I command and about every third command, stimulate to reinforce the command. I don't for the dog to refuse or I'd never get it trained.
Training on all three commands will give you a well balanced and functional electric dog.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I offered no advice to your question as I know very little about e-collars but I did think your responses to well meant and good advice was a bit "off." Maybe you need to de-sensitize a little bit ?
I didn't think this , for example, was condescending, it was simply true.
QUOTE.........." I'm just going to ignore that quote as it is extremely condescending, as is:
polmaise wrote:
"Can't offer any advice on e-collar training and or conditioning until the 'known commands' behaviour is /has been understood by both dog and owner. Sorry.
Wish you well with the dog ."
What was wrong with that ? It's true isn't it and it was politely put ?
Bill T.
I didn't think this , for example, was condescending, it was simply true.
QUOTE.........." I'm just going to ignore that quote as it is extremely condescending, as is:
polmaise wrote:
"Can't offer any advice on e-collar training and or conditioning until the 'known commands' behaviour is /has been understood by both dog and owner. Sorry.
Wish you well with the dog ."
What was wrong with that ? It's true isn't it and it was politely put ?
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Your best bet would be to get the George Hickox training video on collar conditioning.
This lets the dog learn that he is in charge of the collar and can turn off the stim by doing what you want. I think it would work very well in your case because he starts with "kennel". some what because "kennel" is the easiest command to teach the dog and generally they have been doing it all their life. Also it eliminates the risk of screwing up your already good "come" command and making the dog sticky.
Assuming the dog knows the kennel command you simply take the dog to a crate on a check cord, set the collar on the lowest stim the dog feels, push the button first and give the command give the second. The dog must go into the kennel if not on her own push her in. She will soon learn that going into the kennel shuts off the stim. Make it a game and try to get the dog excited about it. Take your time and make sure she gets it. When she gets it very well. You will change to command first and stim second she then learns that if she obeys the command the stim does not come on. At that time you can go to other known commands such as come heel and whatever else you like.
You will be absolutely amazed at how good this works on all dogs no matter what there temperament and how little you will use the stim on the dog once she gets it. Hope this helps. Good Luck.........Cj
This lets the dog learn that he is in charge of the collar and can turn off the stim by doing what you want. I think it would work very well in your case because he starts with "kennel". some what because "kennel" is the easiest command to teach the dog and generally they have been doing it all their life. Also it eliminates the risk of screwing up your already good "come" command and making the dog sticky.
Assuming the dog knows the kennel command you simply take the dog to a crate on a check cord, set the collar on the lowest stim the dog feels, push the button first and give the command give the second. The dog must go into the kennel if not on her own push her in. She will soon learn that going into the kennel shuts off the stim. Make it a game and try to get the dog excited about it. Take your time and make sure she gets it. When she gets it very well. You will change to command first and stim second she then learns that if she obeys the command the stim does not come on. At that time you can go to other known commands such as come heel and whatever else you like.
You will be absolutely amazed at how good this works on all dogs no matter what there temperament and how little you will use the stim on the dog once she gets it. Hope this helps. Good Luck.........Cj
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
That's fine, I thought it was meant to be condescending, specifically "sorry. good luck with your dog," a/k/a your not listening to me so have fun with your training not working. But I probably misinterpreted.Trekmoor wrote:What was wrong with that ? It's true isn't it and it was politely put ?
I apologize to Polmaise and to Trekmoor (in advance) and I appreciate your responses as I indicated in my previous post thanking everyone for all responses and knowledge. My question was answered long ago. Thank you Trekmoor for your input, thank you Polmaise for your input - and I do mean that sincerely because you guys to do have more knowledge than me; I will honestly consider taking a step back so she is solid with commands. My question was answered really well by Sharon, shags, and others early on as well. Thanks!
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
The full stop is very smallTwhjelmgren28 wrote: specifically "sorry. good luck with your dog,"
Either way,the fact remains that basic obedience is best conditioned before any overlay of an e-collar (imo)
Look forward to your up-date on the process you used.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I just love this internet dog training. It really is like doing brain surgery from the waiting room. Do not not know the folks, never had a chance to read the dog at that moment, jest complete strangers are ask How to. and when the response is not the comfortable one the res ponder is made out to be a bad guy.
You newbie's if your breeder cannot or will not help in the up bringing of the pup that you purchased walk away! Find a breeder that will guide you thru the process.
You newbie's if your breeder cannot or will not help in the up bringing of the pup that you purchased walk away! Find a breeder that will guide you thru the process.
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
No e-collar was used in the conditioning phase
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb0bbznFCPo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb0bbznFCPo
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Interesting. I like to say "Good luck." but never say it. It is one of many computer comments that a reader can take as sarcasm.polmaise wrote:The full stop is very smallTwhjelmgren28 wrote: specifically "sorry. good luck with your dog,"
Either way,the fact remains that basic obedience is best conditioned before any overlay of an e-collar (imo)
Look forward to your up-date on the process you used.
Polmaise was sincere I believe. If he was being sarcastic he would have made it very clear.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
There are two basic ways to use an ecollar, (1) a low constant stimulation that is given with the command and terminates when the command has been completed (eg giving the come command with a low constant stimulus that is stopped when the dog is next to you) and (2) a sharper nick that is used when a dog does not immediately start the proper behavior (eg the dog is called but doesn't immediately start back to the handler).
So basically, proper behavior terminates stimulation vs. Improper behavior causes stimulation. It's reward vs. Punishment.
Also, while I understand that building a bond etc is important, if you're in a multiple handler situation (pro and owner or owner and rest of the family), the commands need to be executed quickly and properly regardless of the bond with the current handler.
So basically, proper behavior terminates stimulation vs. Improper behavior causes stimulation. It's reward vs. Punishment.
Also, while I understand that building a bond etc is important, if you're in a multiple handler situation (pro and owner or owner and rest of the family), the commands need to be executed quickly and properly regardless of the bond with the current handler.
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Yea , and then there is this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oszfoJfNehQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oszfoJfNehQ
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Confused Dog ?
It is very easy to inadvertently train a dog something you do not want while thinking you are training it something else entirely.
The following happened to me completely accidentally but wishful thinking had me thinking completely the wrong thing.
It was almost 40 years ago and I was out training a young lab bitch when she chased a rabbit ......and it wasn't the first time she'd done that. I was therefor quite pleased when she hit into an electric stock fence in mid- chase........ I thought it might stop her chasing future rabbits. It didn't stop her chasing but her experience had taught her to jump very high whenever she encountered fences !!!
I'd blown stop on the whistle just as she hit that electric fence and I mistakenly also thought this might teach her to stop at once to whistle. That didn't happen either but for the first few times I blew stop after that she did jump high into the air even when no fence was nearby.
That experience brought home to me just how easily a "training method" can teach completely the wrong thing .
Bill T.
It is very easy to inadvertently train a dog something you do not want while thinking you are training it something else entirely.
The following happened to me completely accidentally but wishful thinking had me thinking completely the wrong thing.
It was almost 40 years ago and I was out training a young lab bitch when she chased a rabbit ......and it wasn't the first time she'd done that. I was therefor quite pleased when she hit into an electric stock fence in mid- chase........ I thought it might stop her chasing future rabbits. It didn't stop her chasing but her experience had taught her to jump very high whenever she encountered fences !!!
I'd blown stop on the whistle just as she hit that electric fence and I mistakenly also thought this might teach her to stop at once to whistle. That didn't happen either but for the first few times I blew stop after that she did jump high into the air even when no fence was nearby.
That experience brought home to me just how easily a "training method" can teach completely the wrong thing .
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I did think it was sarcasm and I do apologize. Thanks for the video posts. Also, I appreciate the story Trekmoor; it is eye opening.Sharon wrote:Interesting. I like to say "Good luck." but never say it. It is one of many computer comments that a reader can take as sarcasm.polmaise wrote:The full stop is very smallTwhjelmgren28 wrote: specifically "sorry. good luck with your dog,"
Either way,the fact remains that basic obedience is best conditioned before any overlay of an e-collar (imo)
Look forward to your up-date on the process you used.
Polmaise was sincere I believe. If he was being sarcastic he would have made it very clear.
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I can appreciate and understand the situation where most 'rightly so' would have concern . The Stop whistle is a great tool for the possible scenario described ,but that too requires a conditioning process ?.the whistle on it's own doesn't create the end product desired.Twhjelmgren28 wrote:Polmaise,
I appreciate your input and she is praised with come; in fact much of the time she listens wonderfully, even without the e-collar. We've been working on it since before I had an e-collar. Since that time, she has escaped me and run across busy roads and has gotten into modes where she will not listen and I don't want my dog to get hit by a car. I'm not really looking to get into a discussion about whether or not to use an e-collar, I have it for a reason and I would like to know how to use it properly and effectively. Thanks.
I personally used this today with great effect on two young spaniels 'In training' . New Ground ,new place ,broke from heel ..It happens . Car approached from the left when they were about to 'cross the road' ...I blew the stop whistle and they stopped! ..car drove by and we were all happy!....I could never have done this with a collar!...I could also never have done this if I never conditioned the dog to stop ....
If You are done that's fine . You may want to reconsider as there are many good folk on here that can add much more than I or even You .
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
................................Trekmoor wrote:Confused Dog ?
It is very easy to inadvertently train a dog something you do not want while thinking you are training it something else entirely.
The following happened to me completely accidentally but wishful thinking had me thinking completely the wrong thing.
It was almost 40 years ago and I was out training a young lab bitch when she chased a rabbit ......and it wasn't the first time she'd done that. I was therefor quite pleased when she hit into an electric stock fence in mid- chase........ I thought it might stop her chasing future rabbits. It didn't stop her chasing but her experience had taught her to jump very high whenever she encountered fences !!!
I'd blown stop on the whistle just as she hit that electric fence and I mistakenly also thought this might teach her to stop at once to whistle. That didn't happen either but for the first few times I blew stop after that she did jump high into the air even when no fence was nearby.
That experience brought home to me just how easily a "training method" can teach completely the wrong thing . Bill T.
That is such a good post and So true.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
School me on this. Like I said, she listens to come fairly well most of the time, which is why I thought using a collar to reinforce come would work in a situation where she is running at the road.polmaise wrote:The Stop whistle is a great tool for the possible scenario described ,but that too requires a conditioning process ?.the whistle on it's own doesn't create the end product desired.
I could also never have done this if I never conditioned the dog to stop ....
If You are done that's fine . You may want to reconsider as there are many good folk on here that can add much more than I or even You .
Gonehuntin' laid it out really well for me, (push vs. pull vs. stop). What is an effective way to teach whoa? Then how do I overlay the whistle or collar? The one method I saw was the Smiths, using the rope around the waist...we've been working on stay in the house and things like that but not really whoa (unless the dog sees them as the same thing???).
Really, my biggest fear with her is running across the road as there are many busy ones near me and there will be some when hunting as well and/or just running away from us and not coming.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I'm sure Shag's advice is good and has seen a lot more dogs than I.This is a different training process than Shags' recommendation in only nicking if she doesn't listen. Or, should I call "come" without any stimulation, and if she doesn't listen call "come" with light stimulation and a tug of the lead/check cord? i.e. Should I only stimulate and pull on the lead when she doesn't listen the first time, or should I always stimulate (and pull a lead) when commanding "come?"
For me and my Gordon's ..I would start out with always stimulate ...and as the pup gets the message (It shouldn't take long) use it if pup refuses the command. That's just me.
Last edited by Gordon Guy on Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tom
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Awesome. Thanks Gordon Guy.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Everyone has their way to do things.
My first and foremost command is "whoa". That is the one I spend the most time on and the one I want absolutely burned into the dog's brain.
I want my dogs to stop...dead in their tracks... when I holler "whoa" and not move a toenail until they are physically released by me.
If I have to, I can go get a dog that is on whoa. Done it many times and not regretted it....not ever. When the dog is very reliable on "whoa", I may allow it to accept and respond to a secondary command like "HERE". But if I have ANY doubt as to the dog's reliability and it is in a bad place, like near a roadway, I will walk to the dog and get my hands on it before I release it.
To me, "whoa" is the most important command for a pointing dog, especially in the tight, congested vehicle and road heavy areas I train, hunt and trial on. It is the one they gotta get right.
RayG
My first and foremost command is "whoa". That is the one I spend the most time on and the one I want absolutely burned into the dog's brain.
I want my dogs to stop...dead in their tracks... when I holler "whoa" and not move a toenail until they are physically released by me.
If I have to, I can go get a dog that is on whoa. Done it many times and not regretted it....not ever. When the dog is very reliable on "whoa", I may allow it to accept and respond to a secondary command like "HERE". But if I have ANY doubt as to the dog's reliability and it is in a bad place, like near a roadway, I will walk to the dog and get my hands on it before I release it.
To me, "whoa" is the most important command for a pointing dog, especially in the tight, congested vehicle and road heavy areas I train, hunt and trial on. It is the one they gotta get right.
RayG
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Thanks for the response. How do you go about teaching whoa? I've worked on stay with her but not so much in a practical sense (more like around the house or if we open the door). The only method I even know about is the one the Smith's use...are there any recommended youtube videos or articles for training whoa?RayGubernat wrote:If I have to, I can go get a dog that is on whoa. Done it many times and not regretted it....not ever. When the dog is very reliable on "whoa", I may allow it to accept and respond to a secondary command like "HERE". But if I have ANY doubt as to the dog's reliability and it is in a bad place, like near a roadway, I will walk to the dog and get my hands on it before I release it.
To me, "whoa" is the most important command for a pointing dog, especially in the tight, congested vehicle and road heavy areas I train, hunt and trial on. It is the one they gotta get right.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I start when the pup is just that...a baby puppy. Every time the pup is let out of its kennel...it has to stand...and wait until I release it. If it tries to go...it gets a face full of door. I start silent heel/whoa drills(after the manner of Paul Long) when the pup is about 3-4 months old. Instead of the looped checkcord, I use a waxed cotton pigging string(poor man's Smith wonder lead). I do these drills twice a day...every day for months, until the dog will heel quietly by my side, stop when I stop, go when I go, turn when I turn, initially with the pigging string lead, then changed over to a prong collar lead, then to an e-collar and finally with nothing at all. I will start dropping the lead and using a hand "stop " signal to keep the dog in place and then walk in front,, walk around, simulate a flush, walk behind and eventually...step over the dog while they stand there. I will style the dog up, brushing up their tail, pushing forward on their rump and pushing down on their front shoulders, to tighten them up.
When the dog is old enough(typically four to five months) I start using a wobbly bench to stack the dog up and style it up. Initially I will hold the dog to steady it and gradually let the dog find its balance on the wobbly board. If the dog moves, the bench wobbles. If the dog moves too much, it gets dumped on the ground. They learn to stand still fairly quickly, and stand there with style.
As the dog gets older and more proficient at both the heel/whoa drills I start varying the drills to keep their attention level high. On the ground I will make sudden direction changes , do stutter steps, even back up, just to make sure the dog has its attention glued to my knee. They know I am messing with them and it becomes a game of "catch me if you can", which we both enjoy.
On the bench, I will attach the dog's collar to a bungee that is fastened to an overhead arm. The bungee is just long enough for the dog to be on its toenails if it decides to jump off. Then I will tempt the dog with flapping pigeons, walking pigeons and finally pigeons thrown past its nose. If it moves, it gets to hang there, until I put it back up on the board. As above, it learns very quickly, to stand there and stand with style. Success is met with stoking and praise.
In the yard, when the dogs are running about, I will call a name and order "whoa". That dog needs to stop, stop INSTANTLY, and "assume the position". I will walk over, stroke the dog up, push down on the shoulders, push forward on the rump and stroke it up again... and then release with a pat on the flank.
That is pretty much how I go about it. No magic methods, no tricks, Just silent repetitions and gradual extensions of the lessons. Patient, persistent and consistent repetitions.
I do heel/whoa drills with all my dogs for as long as they live. They seem to enjoy the attention and the game.
If I ask one of my dogs if they want to "do ", in the yard, they will run over to the wobble bench. There is no question in my mind that they enjoy standing there, proud and stall on that wobble bench, getting stroked up and praised. Two days before I put my old girl to sleep, I called to her in the back yard and asked her if she wanted to "do". She limped over to the wobble bench and put one of her front paws up on the bench stand. I lifted her in place and styled her up. Even though her back end was pretty shot, she still managed to gather herself up to her full height, get her tail up to about 10:30 and stand there proud and confident. Yes, the good ones enjoy showing it off.
RayG
When the dog is old enough(typically four to five months) I start using a wobbly bench to stack the dog up and style it up. Initially I will hold the dog to steady it and gradually let the dog find its balance on the wobbly board. If the dog moves, the bench wobbles. If the dog moves too much, it gets dumped on the ground. They learn to stand still fairly quickly, and stand there with style.
As the dog gets older and more proficient at both the heel/whoa drills I start varying the drills to keep their attention level high. On the ground I will make sudden direction changes , do stutter steps, even back up, just to make sure the dog has its attention glued to my knee. They know I am messing with them and it becomes a game of "catch me if you can", which we both enjoy.
On the bench, I will attach the dog's collar to a bungee that is fastened to an overhead arm. The bungee is just long enough for the dog to be on its toenails if it decides to jump off. Then I will tempt the dog with flapping pigeons, walking pigeons and finally pigeons thrown past its nose. If it moves, it gets to hang there, until I put it back up on the board. As above, it learns very quickly, to stand there and stand with style. Success is met with stoking and praise.
In the yard, when the dogs are running about, I will call a name and order "whoa". That dog needs to stop, stop INSTANTLY, and "assume the position". I will walk over, stroke the dog up, push down on the shoulders, push forward on the rump and stroke it up again... and then release with a pat on the flank.
That is pretty much how I go about it. No magic methods, no tricks, Just silent repetitions and gradual extensions of the lessons. Patient, persistent and consistent repetitions.
I do heel/whoa drills with all my dogs for as long as they live. They seem to enjoy the attention and the game.
If I ask one of my dogs if they want to "do ", in the yard, they will run over to the wobble bench. There is no question in my mind that they enjoy standing there, proud and stall on that wobble bench, getting stroked up and praised. Two days before I put my old girl to sleep, I called to her in the back yard and asked her if she wanted to "do". She limped over to the wobble bench and put one of her front paws up on the bench stand. I lifted her in place and styled her up. Even though her back end was pretty shot, she still managed to gather herself up to her full height, get her tail up to about 10:30 and stand there proud and confident. Yes, the good ones enjoy showing it off.
RayG
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I start teaching whoa when I feed them. As pup's, I pup down the food dish, command "whoa" and hold them. I then release saying OK and let them eat.
Whenever you go through a door, command "whoa", you go first and make the pup wait.
When you start obedience training, start it from heel. When you stop command "whoa". The dog should perform any command until released or issued another. Thus there is no need to say "stay" when you whoa him; he should stay on whoa until released.
I will then whoa him, walk in front with him on a leash commanding him "whoa". l will also call him to me and stop him on the way with a "whoa".
If you have trouble with that or him standing on whoa, put a whoa post in ground and a flank collar on him. I use a double rope so I can call him to me with one and stop him with the flank collar with the other.
That's a brief description of the process. You should be able to figure it out from there.
Whenever you go through a door, command "whoa", you go first and make the pup wait.
When you start obedience training, start it from heel. When you stop command "whoa". The dog should perform any command until released or issued another. Thus there is no need to say "stay" when you whoa him; he should stay on whoa until released.
I will then whoa him, walk in front with him on a leash commanding him "whoa". l will also call him to me and stop him on the way with a "whoa".
If you have trouble with that or him standing on whoa, put a whoa post in ground and a flank collar on him. I use a double rope so I can call him to me with one and stop him with the flank collar with the other.
That's a brief description of the process. You should be able to figure it out from there.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Same as sit then?..only the dog sits .gonehuntin' wrote:I start teaching whoa when I feed them. As pup's, I pup down the food dish, command "whoa" and hold them. I then release saying OK and let them eat.
Whenever you go through a door, command "whoa", you go first and make the pup wait.
When you start obedience training, start it from heel. When you stop command "whoa". The dog should perform any command until released or issued another. Thus there is no need to say "stay" when you whoa him; he should stay on whoa until released.
I will then whoa him, walk in front with him on a leash commanding him "whoa". l will also call him to me and stop him on the way with a "whoa".
If you have trouble with that or him standing on whoa, put a whoa post in ground and a flank collar on him. I use a double rope so I can call him to me with one and stop him with the flank collar with the other.
That's a brief description of the process. You should be able to figure it out from there.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Got it. Thank you for all the help. I will start to use "whoa" for stop/stand still, in all situations; while still working on other commands (come, heel). Once we are a bit more confident, I'll overlay with e-collar and/or whistle. Any other suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
Exactly.polmaise wrote:Same as sit then?..only the dog sits .gonehuntin' wrote:I start teaching whoa when I feed them. As pup's, I pup down the food dish, command "whoa" and hold them. I then release saying OK and let them eat.
Whenever you go through a door, command "whoa", you go first and make the pup wait.
When you start obedience training, start it from heel. When you stop command "whoa". The dog should perform any command until released or issued another. Thus there is no need to say "stay" when you whoa him; he should stay on whoa until released.
I will then whoa him, walk in front with him on a leash commanding him "whoa". l will also call him to me and stop him on the way with a "whoa".
If you have trouble with that or him standing on whoa, put a whoa post in ground and a flank collar on him. I use a double rope so I can call him to me with one and stop him with the flank collar with the other.
That's a brief description of the process. You should be able to figure it out from there.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
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Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
I'm following tom dokens water retriever. I have yet to get to the e collar part as my pup is to young. But I have read through the chapter. He suggests starting collar conditioning with a moving command. He uses heel. With constant stimulation releasing when the dog Is at heel so on so forth. He states teaching a command such as sit or stay a dog can have a tendency to lock up and not want to move thinking that's how to turn the collar off.
Note I don't have experience with it yet. Just read your post and thought maybe a suggestion from his book could help understand why the dog isn't complying . Dog may think he is complying by telling him to stay first then calling him (if I read your post correctly)
Note I don't have experience with it yet. Just read your post and thought maybe a suggestion from his book could help understand why the dog isn't complying . Dog may think he is complying by telling him to stay first then calling him (if I read your post correctly)
Re: E-collar help - Working on "Come" - Confused Dog???
This is a great thread, I have an EP that is now almost 6 months old, my first pointer and hopefully my first trained dog. I have been doing Whoa and Here with him since I got him at 15 weeks of age, in the yard both commands work well, out in the field the Whoa command is stopping him almost every time but the Here command doesn't seem to hold up with all of the distractions so I have used it sparingly. He has never been off leash and has always been on a 20 & 50 ft CC, I got plenty of things to do before I think about a collar.
Anyway thanks for everyone's input on when and how to use the E-collar, also there has been an array of other great information that I have taken from this thread.
JP
Anyway thanks for everyone's input on when and how to use the E-collar, also there has been an array of other great information that I have taken from this thread.
JP