GSP first season training

[GSPONPOINT32]

My GSP is 8 months and has been a pleasure to train so far. It's my first pointer so we have made some mistakes and overcome them along the way. He is whoa broke, gun conditioned, and retrieves to my feet. Might force fetch him at some point but I'm ok with his retrieves for this year. Recall is solid without the e-collar.

Anyway we have been working with pigeons for the last 4 months. 8x about 75 birds. The first 4-5 sessions he did great and held point until I moved my homemade cage and flushed the bird. We shot some over him and he retrieved well.

Here's where the issues started. He has figured out that the bird is stuck under the cage. He broke on one flush and caught the bird. Another time he moved in and the bird was a weak flyer. He caught it about 20 yards away. I've put him back on the check cord and worked some more birds that I planted without cages. He still goes on point but WILL NOT hold more than a few seconds . I started working with a partner to hold him steady at this point so he doesn't catch any more.

Should I:

1 stop live bird training until October when he can run on pheasants. I plan on not shooting anything he flushes without a solid point this year.

2 get some bird launchers and/or seek out a trainer with lunchers and do a few sessions in September.

3 continue with the pigeons and kick cages on a check cord.

4 I have access to some decent quail. Put some quail in the field and let him bump them until he figures it out.

This dog most likely won't be a master hunter but will be my hunting partner for the next 7-9 years.

Hope I have enough info. I'm not terribly worried but I just don't want to exacerbate this training scar. Hopefully someone has had a similar experience and worked through it.




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[Sharon]

Should I:

1 stop live bird training until October when he can run on pheasants. I plan on not shooting anything he flushes without a solid point this year.

2 get some bird launchers and/or seek out a trainer with lunchers and do a few sessions in September.

3 continue with the pigeons and kick cages on a check cord.

4 I have access to some decent quail. Put some quail in the field and let him bump them until he figures it out.

This dog most likely won't be a master hunter but will be my hunting partner for the next 7-9 years.

Hope I have enough info. I'm not terribly worried but I just don't want to exacerbate this training scar. Hopefully someone has had a similar experience and worked through it.
.................................................

1/ maybe
2/ yes
3/ no . Quail are poor flyers and he'll catch them . Not birds for your dog's stage .

[mnaj_springer]

If I were you I would do #2 and then the second part of #1.

If he moves an eyelash while on point (ok, not literally), or busts in without any point after he recognizes the scent (you'll have to read your dog), launch that bird AND THEN use the check cord to stop the chase. Pointing dogs are not meant to be whoa'd into pointing. They point because if they don't, the bird escapes. Also, those quail will do nada for you this year and at this stage. Sell 'em or grill 'em. Hard flying pigeons (avoid the squeakers) are the training bird to use on a young dog.

That's my opinion, and my advice is only worth what you paid for it.

[GSPONPOINT32]

Thanks for both replies. I had a feeling the quail was a bad idea. I saw him catch a hard flying pigeon 4-5 ft off the ground and barrel roll with it in his mouth. He would probably make quick work of those pen raised quail.

I'll see if I can find someone in the area willing to show me the ropes with launchers for now.


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[ckgsp]

you say he is whoa broke. If that is the case he should not move ever until he is told to do so. Go back and refresh the whoa command. Once you can distract the crap out of the dog and it wont move for any reason until told to do so then get on more birds. Baby steps are not acceptable. Whoa means don't move.

[RayGubernat]

you say he is whoa broke. If that is the case he should not move ever until he is told to do so. Go back and refresh the whoa command. Once you can distract the crap out of the dog and it wont move for any reason until told to do so then get on more birds. Baby steps are not acceptable. Whoa means don't move.

I agree with this. In the yard when I stick my hand up that dog had better grow roots and I mean instantly. I train my dogs to not move a toenail until I physically release them with a pat on the flank. I would go back to the yard and do heel whoa drills every day, twice a day(morning and night) for as long as it takes. You can do the same thing with a whoa post, or a barrel or a bench, but the dog has got to clearly understand that even the slightest movement is NOT acceptable.

If you have pigeons and a barrel or bench, when the dog is getting good at standing, you can have a helper toss a pigeon across the dog's front, from a hidden area. If the dog moves more than its head, DUMP HIM...HARD. Say nothing at all. Then set the dog back up, again silently. My guys are attached to an overhead via a bungee. If they go off the bench there is just enough bungee for them to hang there with their back feet on the ground...barely. A couple of episodes of hanging there is usually enough for even the thickest headed dog to get the idea that moving is not a wise choice, and standing very still is what works.

I progress with my yard drills, starting with a"wonder lead" then I move to a prong collar and finally to an e-collar. If the dog moves a toenail, it gets a pop, initially from the wonder lead, then from the prong collar and finally from the e-collar.

In the field, the dog is initially wearing a prong collar, but the checkcord is attached to the dog's flat collar. When the dog goes on point, I switch the lead onto theprong collar before I move in to "flush". If the dog moves, the bird goes up and the dog gets a pop. If the dog breaks and chases, it gets dumped, unceremoniously when it hits the end of the checkcord. Then I go, physically pick the dog up off the ground, walk it back in the vicinity of where it was originally point , set it up, stroke it up and then back off and let the dog stand there for at least three to five minutes...by the clock. All this is done in a matter of fact manner, not roughly but not nice either, and in complete silence.

I am a big believer in getting the dog solid in the yard. I feel it makes the subsequent field work so very much easier on the dog. Once the dog knows "whoa" and what happens when he does not... when you transfer that to the field ...the scent of the bird should SCREAM whoa, to the dog and it should "assume the position'. Many do it on their first bird and most will do it on th3eir second or third bird.

Then it is just a matter of You the trainer not screwing up, not allowing the dog to take that first step without flying the bird because you were not prepared, not allowing the dog to chase and catch, because you didn't have thecheckcord on or you gave the dog too much slack, etc ... but repeating the same lessons over and over, one to three birds per session(never more) and doing thirty, forty, fifty sessions in different places, with different setups.

You probably need to learn when to quit. If the dog does it right...the very first time... slap a lead on the dog and heel him out of there. Some folks actually pick their youngster up and carry it out away from the situation. Then praise the dog and put the dog up. The dog will come out of the crate the next time raring to go...but burned into its memory will also be exactly what happened the last time. A memory of a perfectly executed point. It will WANT to have exactly the same thing happen again.

If the dog messes up a little on its first situation, correct and let the dog stand there and soak in the fact that it has to stand there. Take it to an other set up situation and, more often than not, the dog will do much better. If you feel the dog has done the best it could do...QUIT A WINNER!

Some of the best advice I ever got regqarding dog training was this:

Plan your work...then go out and work your plan.

If you plan your work, you are prepared for what should happen and what MAY happen. Your timing will be far, far better, and timing is crucial to dog training. If you plan your work, you know when you have accomplished what you set out to do...or you will know when it is time to throw in the towel for today and go do something else.


The suggestion to use traps and hard flying pigeons is also dead on, IMO.

RayG

[evans213]

My GSP was/is the same way. I took her to a trainer and she busted in on one pigeon and ended up catching it (long story). That set her back a lot, because once a pup is at the point of figuring out they don't need you to catch a bird then the team aspect of hunting/training is gone. He kept her and worked with her more but wasn't real confident about getting her to 100% steady, as she would still creep once every few birds. She would stop with a whoa command. I brought her home and went back to ground zero on whoa. I used the book training with mo to do this in the beginning and did the same once more. It only took about a week and I could whoa her and walk where ever I wanted to, if she decided to step I would spin and set her back. I then started with distractions. I would use a hat and throw it, if she moved she got set back or spun and set back depending. Then I went to the doken dead fowl. I would let her retrieve if she was steady, if not she got no retrieve (that was the reward) and set back. Once she got the point I put some pigeons out in my launchers. She pointed at about 30 yards out on both birds and never moved. The next week I took her to Mo and dropped her off to make sure she is 100% steady. A high drive dog is hard to get steady once they have caught birds. It's not her fault as much as it is mine, because I let her catch a few quail before starting to steady her at 1 year old or so. She is now 2 years old. Plus she is my first bird dog just like you and I have learned the hard way, thank God she is smarter than me. So my advice to you is please don't let the dog catch any more birds (I'm sure you know this). It sounds like his prey drive is plenty high enough to put pressure on him around birds and it won't hurt him. If he is steady shoot the bird so he can get rewarded by putting it in his mouth, if not steady then flush the bird and move on. Always end on a good note, even if that means a lap or two of heel then a few minutes of play time. If you have two birds out and he does good on the first bird then stop there and put the second bird back in the cage.

[oldbeek]

you say he is whoa broke. If that is the case he should not move ever until he is told to do so. Go back and refresh the whoa command. Once you can distract the crap out of the dog and it wont move for any reason until told to do so then get on more birds. Baby steps are not acceptable. Whoa means don't move.

I agree with this. In the yard when I stick my hand up that dog had better grow roots and I mean instantly. I train my dogs to not move a toenail until I physically release them with a pat on the flank. I would go back to the yard and do heel whoa drills every day, twice a day(morning and night) for as long as it takes. You can do the same thing with a whoa post, or a barrel or a bench, but the dog has got to clearly understand that even the slightest movement is NOT acceptable.

If you have pigeons and a barrel or bench, when the dog is getting good at standing, you can have a helper toss a pigeon across the dog's front, from a hidden area. If the dog moves more than its head, DUMP HIM...HARD. Say nothing at all. Then set the dog back up, again silently. My guys are attached to an overhead via a bungee. If they go off the bench there is just enough bungee for them to hang there with their back feet on the ground...barely. A couple of episodes of hanging there is usually enough for even the thickest headed dog to get the idea that moving is not a wise choice, and standing very still is what works.
Ray, Your posts are so informative! I read this subject and realized that i am putting up with my dog leaving on shot even after i have given her the sign to whoa before the flush. She is going back to yard whoa training today for a serious tuneup.
I progress with my yard drills, starting with a"wonder lead" then I move to a prong collar and finally to an e-collar. If the dog moves a toenail, it gets a pop, initially from the wonder lead, then from the prong collar and finally from the e-collar.

In the field, the dog is initially wearing a prong collar, but the checkcord is attached to the dog's flat collar. When the dog goes on point, I switch the lead onto theprong collar before I move in to "flush". If the dog moves, the bird goes up and the dog gets a pop. If the dog breaks and chases, it gets dumped, unceremoniously when it hits the end of the checkcord. Then I go, physically pick the dog up off the ground, walk it back in the vicinity of where it was originally point , set it up, stroke it up and then back off and let the dog stand there for at least three to five minutes...by the clock. All this is done in a matter of fact manner, not roughly but not nice either, and in complete silence.

I am a big believer in getting the dog solid in the yard. I feel it makes the subsequent field work so very much easier on the dog. Once the dog knows "whoa" and what happens when he does not... when you transfer that to the field ...the scent of the bird should SCREAM whoa, to the dog and it should "assume the position'. Many do it on their first bird and most will do it on th3eir second or third bird.

Then it is just a matter of You the trainer not screwing up, not allowing the dog to take that first step without flying the bird because you were not prepared, not allowing the dog to chase and catch, because you didn't have thecheckcord on or you gave the dog too much slack, etc ... but repeating the same lessons over and over, one to three birds per session(never more) and doing thirty, forty, fifty sessions in different places, with different setups.

You probably need to learn when to quit. If the dog does it right...the very first time... slap a lead on the dog and heel him out of there. Some folks actually pick their youngster up and carry it out away from the situation. Then praise the dog and put the dog up. The dog will come out of the crate the next time raring to go...but burned into its memory will also be exactly what happened the last time. A memory of a perfectly executed point. It will WANT to have exactly the same thing happen again.

If the dog messes up a little on its first situation, correct and let the dog stand there and soak in the fact that it has to stand there. Take it to an other set up situation and, more often than not, the dog will do much better. If you feel the dog has done the best it could do...QUIT A WINNER!

Some of the best advice I ever got regqarding dog training was this:

Plan your work...then go out and work your plan.

If you plan your work, you are prepared for what should happen and what MAY happen. Your timing will be far, far better, and timing is crucial to dog training. If you plan your work, you know when you have accomplished what you set out to do...or you will know when it is time to throw in the towel for today and go do something else.


The suggestion to use traps and hard flying pigeons is also dead on, IMO.

RayG

[oldbeek]

This was to be attached to the last Quote. X-2 RayG, Your advice is always spot on. Reading this i realized i was letting my dog go on gunshot even after i have given her the hand signal to whoa before the flush. I thought she is doing pretty good most of the time. It is time for a tuneup. We are starting yard whoa training for the next 2 weeks.

[GSPONPOINT32]

Good stuff...we are re-working whoa currently. Got some launchers but waiting until the middle of September to get him back on pigeons. No matter what we are going to have fun with the pheasants this fall and winter. I've decided not to shoot anything he doesn't hold this year and we will go from there in the spring. Thanks for all the replies!


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