Dog won't force-fetch

Post Reply
User avatar
idahomarine
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:30 am
Location: Rigby, Idaho

Dog won't force-fetch

Post by idahomarine » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:37 pm

First, I am new to bird hunting, dog training, and this board. I have a 20-month-old Vizsla/Brittany mix. He has one season under his belt where he pointed a few quail and retrieved some ducks. He is pretty good about going out and getting the bird, but he drops it about 5 feet in front of me (a result of my poor training early on). He also is finicky when it comes to retrieving the bumpers. Based on all of that, I decided to force-fetch him.
I built a table and I am using the toe pinch method. It has been three weeks of 10 minutes per day. So far, he reaches and takes the dowel from my hand when I say “fetch,” but only when he is tied to the post. He’s done this for about a week. He’ll take the dowel when it is close to his face, but won’t reach more than a few inches unless I pull the cord (I am giving him enough slack). He also gets upset whenever he hears me say fetch and exhibits some distress, but eventually takes the dowel before I put any pressure on. I stay upbeat and full of praise. The only time I show disapproval is when he drops it.
This is my question: Should I continue with the toe pinch or would another method work better for him? Due to a thumb injury, I cannot do the ear pinch. I was thinking that the pinch collar method might help because I can guide his head to the dowel. What should I do?

User avatar
oldbeek
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:47 pm
Location: Lancaster CA

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by oldbeek » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:01 pm

I am no expert,but. It is called FORCE FETCH, not, if you want to do it fetch. Use toe pinch and make him reach out and get it. Maybe a real trainer will chime in here.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:21 pm

You apparently have a program to follow so I kind of hate to tell you to do something else BUT; I hate the toe pinch, far preferring the ear to the toe. If it's one huge mistake I see most amateurs make, it's using too LITTLE pressure. It's called force for a reason and not because it's fun. Now, the problem is, we're talking about two entirely different approaches or systems here, so it's hard for me to advise you. You need someone to jump in that has done a LOT of dog's using the toe pinch but I honestly don't believe you are using enough pressure on the dog.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

User avatar
Dakotazeb
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Dakotazeb » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:41 am

I found it extremely difficult to do a FF program myself. I think for many it's difficult to apply enough pressure to your own dog. I spent the money and sent my dog to a professional trainer. It was money well spent.
Janee's August Breeze - Bree
http://gundogcentral.com/view_pedigree. ... erations=5

NSTRA Champion Godfather's Dakota Elle 2008-2016
https://gundogcentral.com/view_pedigree ... erations=5

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:09 am

Dakotazeb wrote:I found it extremely difficult to do a FF program myself. I think for many it's difficult to apply enough pressure to your own dog. I spent the money and sent my dog to a professional trainer. It was money well spent.

And that's the best advice you'll get on this post.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

User avatar
gundogguy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: southern Michiganistan

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by gundogguy » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:14 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Dakotazeb wrote:I found it extremely difficult to do a FF program myself. I think for many it's difficult to apply enough pressure to your own dog. I spent the money and sent my dog to a professional trainer. It was money well spent.

And that's the best advice you'll get on this post.
EXACTLY You would not pull one of your wife's teeth, or try to operate on some one who suffer from appendicitis. The use of force in this situation is for the experienced and confident trainer. You will be time and money ahead if it is done right the first time.
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.

osunut
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:45 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by osunut » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:00 am

I would find someone to send the dog to. I tried to do it myself and it wasn't working. Sent the dog off and it was money well spent.

User avatar
Spy Car
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 552
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:53 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Spy Car » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:56 am

The alternative to outsourcing the dog to a professional who can apply a greater degree pain than an owner might feel is humane, is to use the positive reinforcement techniques that virtually all professional animal trainers in every setting (save self-professed gun-dog trainers) use to train animals in a humane fashion.

There are better ways to train that by inflicting pain.

Bill

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:22 am

It's hard for me to tell without seeing (and I very well could be wrong), but it sounds like your timing is off too, or it has the potential to be off, which makes the process that much more difficult.

FF can be, and is, done by amateur trainers. I've done it with fantastic results. I'm no pro at it, but I can tell you I probably spent more time thinking about the process, and contemplating each training session, than I did in the actual training (much to my wife's dismay). That being said, if you are uncomfortable with the process and/or feel like your cannot resolve the conflicts involved, a pro may be your best bet.

Good luck!
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

GSPONPOINT32
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:42 pm

Dog won't force-fetch

Post by GSPONPOINT32 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:52 am

Spy Car wrote:The alternative to outsourcing the dog to a professional who can apply a greater degree pain than an owner might feel is humane, is to use the positive reinforcement techniques that virtually all professional animal trainers in every setting (save self-professed gun-dog trainers) use to train animals in a humane fashion.

There are better ways to train that by inflicting pain.

Bill
Gibbons west method
I haven't FF my pup but I may look into this in the spring

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Emf2rSAdRpc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
ckfowler
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 416
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:05 pm
Location: W Ohio

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by ckfowler » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:46 am

Google induced retrieve, worked for my Girdon who also stalled with even a pro for FF.
Colin

oregon woodsmoke
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:11 pm
Location: North Idaho

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:31 pm

If you, as the handler, are having difficulty with doing a forced fetch, you might try switching to clicker training and see if that works better for you. You can get an awfully good fetch with clicker training.

It's a whole different training system and you'll have to learn the system, but it does a great job on training the fetch.

Other than that, I only have a couple of suggestions. You need to work on the dog's recall. If he isn't coming all the way in, you need to stop and teach him to come in close and to have some sort of finish that he does when he gets to you. People who teach their dogs to sit have them sit when they arrive on the recall, and they train them to sit close. If you re one of those pointer people who thinks a dog should never sit, then think up some other marker for the dog to do when he arrives.

If the dog won't bring the dummy all the way to you, there is some sort of reason. Maybe you have been too rough taking the dummy and hurt the dog. You have to take the dummy gently until the dog learns to open his mouth and release the dummy to you. Maybe you started just as the dog was cutting teeth and there was some sort of discomfort. Whatever, you must go on from here and simply work the problem out.

Don't forget to give some sort of approval when it is done correctly. Dogs work really well with only approval as their paycheck, but they do need some sort of paycheck if you want them to work.

User avatar
Tooling
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:32 am

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Tooling » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:56 pm

oregon woodsmoke wrote:If you, as the handler, are having difficulty with doing a forced fetch, you might try switching to clicker training and see if that works better for you. You can get an awfully good fetch with clicker training.

It's a whole different training system and you'll have to learn the system, but it does a great job on training the fetch.

Other than that, I only have a couple of suggestions. You need to work on the dog's recall. If he isn't coming all the way in, you need to stop and teach him to come in close and to have some sort of finish that he does when he gets to you. People who teach their dogs to sit have them sit when they arrive on the recall, and they train them to sit close. If you re one of those pointer people who thinks a dog should never sit, then think up some other marker for the dog to do when he arrives.

If the dog won't bring the dummy all the way to you, there is some sort of reason. Maybe you have been too rough taking the dummy and hurt the dog. You have to take the dummy gently until the dog learns to open his mouth and release the dummy to you. Maybe you started just as the dog was cutting teeth and there was some sort of discomfort. Whatever, you must go on from here and simply work the problem out.

Don't forget to give some sort of approval when it is done correctly. Dogs work really well with only approval as their paycheck, but they do need some sort of paycheck if you want them to work.
Wonderful post.

I am especially keen to the notion that the dog should have some sort of finish as this is a tangible action that instills clear understanding for the dogs sake and deliberately helps the dog be successful.

As a pointer type I do not want my dog to sit..his generic position for recall is to be by my side in heel position..interestingly enough and as he has aged that has become his personal "safe spot" as well. Also, when he's in a playful mood he'll come to my side and nudge his head into my hand which is him telling me to come play fetch or come along and stroll the property just to search etc..it is truly amazing and utterly endearing how a dog can make his or her way into a fella's heart like that!

Edited to add..I haven't got much advice for force fetch considering I've only done it once with our current dog. (I utilized Smart Fetch)

I will offer this - folks told me that following FF, the bond w/dog will reach heights you've never understood..totally true!

User avatar
idahomarine
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:30 am
Location: Rigby, Idaho

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by idahomarine » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:34 pm

Sorry for the late response. I have been out of town and working late. I know that a professional would do a much better job, but I am limited on finances and I want to train my own dog. I took a look at the timing issue and I don't think that is it. Since I lasted posted he has started to reach and come to the dummy. Tonight he even started picking up the dowel from the ground. How long does it normally take to finish force fetching?

Swampbilly
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:58 am
Location: Gloucester, Virginia

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Swampbilly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:46 am

Spy Car wrote:The alternative to outsourcing the dog to a professional who can apply a greater degree pain than an owner might feel is humane, is to use the positive reinforcement techniques that virtually all professional animal trainers in every setting (save self-professed gun-dog trainers) use to train animals in a humane fashion.

There are better ways to train that by inflicting pain.

Bill
Did you know that parts of a picinic table are edible!? 8)

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:08 am

idahomarine wrote:Sorry for the late response. I have been out of town and working late. I know that a professional would do a much better job, but I am limited on finances and I want to train my own dog. I took a look at the timing issue and I don't think that is it. Since I lasted posted he has started to reach and come to the dummy. Tonight he even started picking up the dowel from the ground. How long does it normally take to finish force fetching?
It takes as long as it takes! If try meeting a deadline then you may move too quickly and you'll find holes in your training later.
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by NEhomer » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:15 pm

I too have become a tad frustrated with this process. I have a bench and have been using it for a few weeks now and my setter's still reluctant to reach for the bumper.

I'm not quitting and have read time and again that you're done when you're done so that'll have to do.

User avatar
idahomarine
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:30 am
Location: Rigby, Idaho

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by idahomarine » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:27 pm

I decided to take a break and try some other methods. I'll use positive methods throughout the hunting season and if he's not delivering to hand by January, I'll either get a professional or try the ear pinch/Gibbons West method.

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by NEhomer » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:16 pm

Happy to report that I had Whip heeling and holding the buck just fine today.

Baby steps...

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Stoneface » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:36 am

It sounds like you need some treats. Seriously. People in birddogs look down on this and I don't know why. Get a hot dog, but it up and trade him a treat for the bumper or bird or whatever he is retrieving. Do it at the post first where he's used to taking birds and get awful excited when he's giving it to you. Make him think you are going to have a parade in his honor. He'll love it. Think about when you were little. I'm sure you wouldn't have liked to play catch with your dad if he showed no emotion or showed an upset emotion. But, you would like to play with him if he showed no emotion or got really happy and excited. Same thing.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

Timewise65
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:30 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Timewise65 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:35 pm

I have hunted with many dogs some force fetched and some not. The ones that are not force fetched usually have problems with either hard mouth, releasing the bird on command or delivering to hand or all of the above. I know their are exceptions to this, I just have not seen one. Force fetching is not only training for fetching, dropping, and delivering to hand, but changes the dogs attitude about obedience in general....

I know I am opening up a 'can of worms' here, but I can only talk from my life experience and what I have learned training and hunting with gun dogs.....

Opinions are like belly buttons, most everyone has one....this was mine... :mrgreen:

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:19 pm

Stoneface wrote:It sounds like you need some treats. Seriously. People in birddogs look down on this and I don't know why. Get a hot dog, but it up and trade him a treat for the bumper or bird or whatever he is retrieving. Do it at the post first where he's used to taking birds and get awful excited when he's giving it to you. Make him think you are going to have a parade in his honor. He'll love it. Think about when you were little. I'm sure you wouldn't have liked to play catch with your dad if he showed no emotion or showed an upset emotion. But, you would like to play with him if he showed no emotion or got really happy and excited. Same thing.
You don't "treat" a dog because it's FORCE FETCH,not cookies and cream fetch. A treat defeats the entire concept of FF.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Swampbilly
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:58 am
Location: Gloucester, Virginia

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:33 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Stoneface wrote:It sounds like you need some treats. Seriously. People in birddogs look down on this and I don't know why. Get a hot dog, but it up and trade him a treat for the bumper or bird or whatever he is retrieving. Do it at the post first where he's used to taking birds and get awful excited when he's giving it to you. Make him think you are going to have a parade in his honor. He'll love it. Think about when you were little. I'm sure you wouldn't have liked to play catch with your dad if he showed no emotion or showed an upset emotion. But, you would like to play with him if he showed no emotion or got really happy and excited. Same thing.
You don't "treat" a dog because it's FORCE FETCH,not cookies and cream fetch. A treat defeats the entire concept of FF.
+1
This is the time when you change the "want to's".. into..."have to's" :wink:

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by cjhills » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:21 am

First ,I don't do a real brutal force fetch. More of a conditioned retrieve. Most of our dogs have A natural retrieve, But, I have done some dogs which pros had gave up on. I have not met the dog that I could not get to retrieve. The first few days on some dogs are pretty brutal. There can be only one response. The dog has To reach and grab the dummy when his ear is pinched. I always use the ear because the toe is too far from the action for me. I get the thumb injury. But it does not make any difference which hand you use. I don't use severe pain but I am persistent it will not go away until the dummy is in his mouth
IMO the biggest mistake people make is moving forward to fast. The dog must reach and grab the dummy when you touch his ear. No other response is acceptable. I want him jumping in the air to grab the dummy and to know that is the only thing that works. Make sure he is not avoiding or hesitating. Once he is doing that every time you touch his ear, the only tough time is picking the dummy off the ground. Some dogs are very resistant to that step. Some will lay on the ground and howl rather than pick up the dummy. I have no idea why it is so tough. You must maintain your cool. Do not get angry and do not give up. He will get it.
Once he is lunging to get the dummy and picking it up every time with no hesitation you are pretty much home free. How long it takes is up to the dog. Some dog it well on the second day, some take two weeks or more. After you get him picking the dummy up quickly and without resistance you can go pretty much any direction you want. Some dogs find it hard to walk and carry the dummy at first.
I use a wooden buck at first. It is much easier to pick up.
I don't use any verbal command until he is understanding what the ear pinch means.
I will work........................Cj

Makintrax73
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:18 pm

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Makintrax73 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:30 am

Guys I am a complete rookie at this, having tried one dog this year on FF.

It took me around 3 months from start to getting the dog to pick a bumper off the ground with
1 or 2 short sessions a day. Timing? Pressure? Who knows, but unless you are good or lucky this
is not going to be a quick and easy job.

Still dont have the dog reliable on birds in the field even though he is 100% and charges to a bumper
in the yard. Its a process, and it can be very frustrating. Think, and be patient is my best advice.

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by NEhomer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:52 am

It's continued to be slow progress for me and my setter. During the August it was a lot easier to be patient because time was on my side.

Now that the season is right around the corner and I'm still working on a consistent grab and hold, I have no expectation that I'm going to have a bird dog that retrieves at least to start the season so now the question is, what to do while hunting with a dog that is still doing force fetch training.

Just pick them up myself or try to call him in when he picks them up?

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:55 pm

You're treading a very slippery slope here. If you hunt the dog and he refuses a birds, all of your training will be in vain. If you try to reinforce in the field what he won't do in the yard, the dog could stop hunting all together. Personally, I'd finish the ff or forget it.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:27 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:You're treading a very slippery slope here. If you hunt the dog and he refuses a birds, all of your training will be in vain. If you try to reinforce in the field what he won't do in the yard, the dog could stop hunting all together. Personally, I'd finish the ff or forget it.
+1. Just keep training and wait to hunt. Whip is young and you'll get lots of opportunities to hunt with him. I like to start FF in February for just that reason. I know I can figure it out in 7 or 8 months. Besides, easily season sucks anyway. Too hot and too many leaves (for grousing).
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by NEhomer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:19 pm

Since I haven't progressed to birds yet, I don't think he'll make the connection will he? Can I just suspend retrieve training until the springtime and resume then? It is very unlikely that this dog will stop hunting birds as his prey drive is through the ceiling.

My goodness, I can't even fathom not hunting.

mnaj_springer
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm
Location: Northern Minnesota

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:19 pm

NEhomer wrote:Since I haven't progressed to birds yet, I don't think he'll make the connection will he? Can I just suspend retrieve training until the springtime and resume then? It is very unlikely that this dog will stop hunting birds as his prey drive is through the ceiling.

My goodness, I can't even fathom not hunting.
He may make the connection. Really depends on the dog. I have no doubt my springer would've made the connection. She's insanely smart and makes generalizations quickly. My pointer on the other hand is dumb. Ok, she's not dumb, but she's not smart. I doubt she would've made the generalization, which is why when she was FF'd I had to go through the entire program over and over with each new situation and retrieval object (bench to ground, buck to bumper, inside to outside, yard to field, bumpers to birds, etc.)

So will he make the generalization? Maybe? Would I personally risk all that work? No. But I'm not you and your dog is not mine.
“Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.”
― Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.

User avatar
NEhomer
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:58 pm
Location: Western, MA

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by NEhomer » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:59 am

I truly appreciate the input but I'm just not getting what he's likely to "connect." Again, I haven't yet progressed to bird retrieving as at this point it's still bench work and walking at heel with the bumper.

All he's going to hear over a shot bird is Good Boy!

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:31 am

oldbeek wrote:I am no expert,but. It is called FORCE FETCH, not, if you want to do it fetch. Use toe pinch and make him reach out and get it. Maybe a real trainer will chime in here.
I think the advice you have received is the ideal way to progress but will also admit that I see no real problem developing if you quit and hunt the dog. I don't think you have even gotten to the actual FF and see nothing that will hurt other than just setting you back on time. And next spring and summer should give you plenty of time to get into the whole program if needed. JMO
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:36 am

Here's kind of the deal. You are forcing him now and he knows what "fetch" means though he won't do it. This is a critical time. Does he win or do you. Now, you take him hunting and drop a bird. He runs over and pees on it or makes some half hearted attempt to find it and takes off to find another one. You lose again. Or, he looks and the bird, walks away, you get mad, catch him and make a big deal of stuffing the bird in his mouth and holding it in the field. Now, he feels you're unfair, the field is a nasty place he will get in trouble in and he dislikes birds more because they caused him discomfort.

Best case scenario is that for some reason, he turns on to birds and runs over to shot birds, picking them up and bringing them to you. Highly doubtful but possible.

Again, you may be beating your head against a wall. This dog may NEVER retrieve no matter who forces him and how much time you invest. Some dog's just do not like to retrieve.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Stoneface » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:08 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Stoneface wrote:It sounds like you need some treats. Seriously. People in birddogs look down on this and I don't know why. Get a hot dog, but it up and trade him a treat for the bumper or bird or whatever he is retrieving. Do it at the post first where he's used to taking birds and get awful excited when he's giving it to you. Make him think you are going to have a parade in his honor. He'll love it. Think about when you were little. I'm sure you wouldn't have liked to play catch with your dad if he showed no emotion or showed an upset emotion. But, you would like to play with him if he showed no emotion or got really happy and excited. Same thing.
You don't "treat" a dog because it's FORCE FETCH,not cookies and cream fetch. A treat defeats the entire concept of FF.

Ah. I'll remember that when my Pointer is breaking ice and running a hundred yards to track down a running pheasant. Have you ever tried it or are you talking?
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

Swampbilly
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:58 am
Location: Gloucester, Virginia

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:13 pm

Stoneface wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
?"Stoneface" wrote:It sounds like you need some treats. Seriously. People in birddogs look down on this and I don't know why. Get a hot dog, but it up and trade him a treat for the bumper or bird or whatever he is retrieving. Do it at the post first where he's used to taking birds and get awful excited when he's giving it to you. Make him think you are going to have a parade in his honor. He'll love it. Think about when you were little. I'm sure you wouldn't have liked to play catch with your dad if he showed no emotion or showed an upset emotion. But, you would like to play with him if he showed no emotion or got really happy and excited. Same thing.
You don't "treat" a dog because it's FORCE FETCH,not cookies and cream fetch. A treat defeats the entire concept of FF.
Ah. I'll remember that when my Pointer is breaking ice and running a hundred yards to track down a running pheasant. Have you ever tried it or are you talking?
You mean a frozen little rain puddle in a field of Alfalfa or breaking ice for 30 yds off the shoreline SWIMMING 100 yds in cold H2o, then CHASING down a diving, swimming crippled Puddle duck for a period of time in a 3 knot current?
Add in any handling that may be neccessary as well, particularly in what could be a safety compromised situation.
Nevertheless, think you're missing the point 'Stone.
It's just as 'Gone mentioned-
Have not ever seen or heard of one single FF'er trainer using a piece of Kibble or a hotdog to Pressure Condition a dog.We're not talking about retrieving desire or rewards for retrieving. It's the fundamentals of FF', (no treats required), and the "reward" is dog learning how to turn off pressure,. There's no retrieving desires or drive imputed from it to the dog.
Gonehuntin is spot on.

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Stoneface » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:08 pm

What you mentioned is far beyond force breaking, and let me ask the last time you hunted upland birds and saw a dog retrieve a duck that was dodging and diving. Name the number of competition dogs that fail at that level because they just aren't up to snuff. We're talking about an amateur, a novice and a newbie. We're talking he shoots his bird and it goes down, he's sends his dog to get it. If it's in tall grass or the other side of a creek, he has the use his nose to pick it up. This really, really isn't that hard and really, really requires no force breaking... at all. Get a treat, throw something for your dog to bring back, when he brings it back swap him for the treat. Do this two or three times. Work your way up to a fresh killed bird.

One of the first retrieves my Pointer did was on a wounded pheasant. Tracked it probably three hundred yards in the snow and pulled it out of a bush. Guess how many days of force breaking she went through.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:47 pm

It doesn't require ff until he stops to eat the birds because he's been given rewards to eat. You don't need force until you need it. As a trainer you should realize that. Like building a house on a wooden foundation. Maybe it'll last, maybe not.

As far as retrieving a hundred yard duck, mine does it often. She not only hunts upland but waterfowl as well. In other words, she's a versatile dog. Had a setter that would do that as well.

As a trainer you should also realize that ff is about far more than the retrieve of a bird.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

Swampbilly
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:58 am
Location: Gloucester, Virginia

Re: Dog won't force-fetch

Post by Swampbilly » Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:21 pm

Stoneface wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Stoneface wrote:It sounds like you need some trets. Seriously. People in birddogs look down on this and I don't know why. Get a hot dog, but it up and trade him a treat for the bumper or bird or whatever he is retrieving. Do it at the post first where he's used to taking birds and get awful excited when he's giving it to you. Make him think you are going to have a parade in his honor. He'll love it. Think about when you were little. I'm sure you wouldn't have liked to play catch with your dad if he showed no emotion or showed an upset emotion. But, you would like to play with him if he showed no emotion or got really happy and excited. Same thing.
You don't "treat" a dog because it's FORCE FETCH,not cookies and cream fetch. A treat defeats the entire concept of FF.

Ah. I'll remember that when my Pointer is breaking ice and running a hundred yards to track down a running pheasant. Have you ever tried it or are you talking?
Could've sworn we were talking about the use of treats as part of the FF' process ( to entice, or reward pup to retrieve or for retrieving) and your example of your dogs' skill set. Sounds like you have a great dog!
I too, have had a few "retrieving machines" that never had to be forced to do a dang thing, and I used treats initially when pups.
But those treats were short lived and not used as a training staple forever- they did not get my dog to run out from my side and run ... and keep running..into oblivion... in a straight line after a bird he didn't see fall until instructed to stop and hunt.
Repetition, Attrition, and Training did that.
Now if treats gave your dog the tools to do what it's doing that's awesome!
Kudos to you!
(Personally I'd attribute a good deal your dogs' success to good prey drive, and an intimate relationship with birds, not a hotdog)
Again-
There's no comprehensive, proven Pressure Conditioning program or methods that I'm aware of that uses treats as a training method in the process.

.

Post Reply