1yr old setter questions

[northwoodshunter]

I have an English Setter that was 1yr in April. I've done all his training so far by myself(16years old) and he listens extremely well for me so far in the field. I even called him off a porcupine before he got quilled. He listens everytime to come whether I shock him or not unless theres an animal distraction then i might need a little shock, and he knows when I point a direction to go that way, and is in the process of whistle training for both of those also. Anyway, I think I want to train him myself the rest of the way, and so far this year i've taken him out quite a bit getting ready for the annual north dakota pheasant trip, and grouse season. But we havent seen many birds, but I am buying pheasants and maybe pigeons. And i've gotten him on my cousins pheasants for pointing and he would point and hold till i get to his nose and when i will step to flush it he will go with, and I don't really mind that, but I might run him in coverdog trials in the next ear or after that, so I wanna make him as steady as I can and if i end up needing a trainer to do some, so be it. But what are some good ways to train to be steady, and any other advice is welcome and If you need any other info let me know.
Thanks

[skunk]

I have an English Setter that was 1yr in April. I've done all his training so far by myself(16years old) and he listens extremely well for me so far in the field. I even called him off a porcupine before he got quilled. He listens everytime to come whether I shock him or not unless theres an animal distraction then i might need a little shock, and he knows when I point a direction to go that way, and is in the process of whistle training for both of those also. Anyway, I think I want to train him myself the rest of the way, and so far this year i've taken him out quite a bit getting ready for the annual north dakota pheasant trip, and grouse season. But we havent seen many birds, but I am buying pheasants and maybe pigeons. And i've gotten him on my cousins pheasants for pointing and he would point and hold till i get to his nose and when i will step to flush it he will go with, and I don't really mind that, but I might run him in coverdog trials in the next ear or after that, so I wanna make him as steady as I can and if i end up needing a trainer to do some, so be it. But what are some good ways to train to be steady, and any other advice is welcome and If you need any other info let me know.
Thanks

First, that's awesome that you're training your own dog at 16! I wish I had my own gun dog when I was that age. Keep at it.

Second, if you haven't realized this already, most of the (possibly armchair) experts you'll find online will have a different way of doing things and/or claim their method is the best. When training, one important thing is to find a method that appeals to your sensibilities and works for your dog.

With that out of the way, I would recommend getting yourself a copy of the Perfection Kennels DVDs called "Perfect Start" and "Perfect Finish". That's just my opinion on one of possibly many different good gun dog training systems. I just like the way John Hann works with the dogs and I like how the videos show multiple dogs with different tendencies going through the same process. Basically what they do for steadiness is breaking the process down into individual steps that allow you and the dog to learn one step at a time. Then you combine them together.

To very roughly summarize what they do:
1) Put the dog on a check cord. Depending on how wild your dog is, use whatever kind of collar allows you to control the dog. Of course, you will eventually not have the dog on a check cord but you should start this way.
2) They first get the dog pointing planted pigeons in remote bird launchers. As soon as the dog acknowledges scent and if they attempt to take a step toward the bird ("crashing" or "busting" the bird), they pop the launcher and let the bird fly away without saying anything to the dog. It is important to use good flying pigeons because you don't want the dog to be tempted by a bird that gets up and lands really close. Try to help your dog by giving him the best chance of success. At this point your dog is learning that if he tries to bust that bird, it's going to fly away (like a wild bird would) so there is no point in charging in on it.
3) After the dog is establishing point reliably, then the rest of the process is essentially obedience. After the point is established, you've gone from the dog doing what it was bred to do and transitioning to do something unnatural like standing there while this human walks up beside me and flushes the bird. The foundation for that obedience is the "whoa" command. So you teach the dog whoa and when he is pretty solid on it, move to the next steps.
4) For steady to flush training they have the dog on a check cord and whoa him (no pointing involved here -- just obedience). Then a partner carrying a bag of pigeons walks out like they're flushing a bird and releases a pigeon into the air. The dog must remain standing. If they chase, correct them and make them whoa. Once they're doing this well, move on to the next step.
5) Add a blank pistol shot as the bird flies in the previous step. Again, make the dog stand while the bird flies and shot is fired.
6) Now the dog is standing through the flush but still there is no pointing involved. This is breaking it down so the dog only has one real task at hand -- standing still when you tell him to whoa no matter what is going on in front of him or behind him. Now you will add a falling bird (steady to shot and fall). Again whoa the dog (no pointing of an actual bird) and have a partner toss a dead bird into the air and shoot a blank pistol. When that bird hits the ground, it is going to be a whole extra level of temptation for the dog to break so be prepared for that to happen. Just keep the check cord on him, correct him and set him back where he was supposed to be.
7) After that last step is solid, have your partner shoot a shotgun when throwing the dead bird. The graduation from blank pistol to shotgun will also add more temptation for the dog to break.
8) After the dog understands those individual steps, you can combine them all and go back to planting shooter birds (quail, chukar, etc) in launchers. Work the dog into them on a check cord, if the dog breaks, let the bird fly and do not shoot. If he does the right thing and stays steady, shoot the bird. Be prepared for him to break again because shooting a live bird is a lot different than shooting at a dead one thrown in the air. If he stays steady the whole time, reward him with a retrieve (sometimes -- you don't have to every time but it helps the dog stay happy through this process).

Eventually you'll take the dog off the check cord and then he will also make mistakes that you'll have to correct but if you've laid the groundwork well, it won't be as difficult or stressful for you or the dog. You may have to take some steps back and re-do things and that's ok.

That's my summary of their method. I suggest getting the videos because there is a lot of nuance in those steps that I glossed over. Also don't forget this is just one method I like. Others will probably chime in and say it's garbage. The important thing is to find a method that works for you and try to stick with that. Also finding a more experienced person to mentor you helps but be aware that person may also use methods you don't like for whatever reason so you ultimately have to use your judgement.

[Sharon]

" But we havent seen many birds, but I am buying pheasants and maybe pigeons. And i've gotten him on my cousins pheasants for pointing and he would point and hold till i get to his nose and when i will step to flush it he will go with, and I don't really mind that, but I might run him in coverdog trials in the next ear or after that, so I wanna make him as steady as I can."

That has to matter to you. Whoa is whoa. Now that you've allowed him to go with you , you'll have to start over.

This video shows what you need to expect. Not a great video but it may help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnWWBwZv758

[northwoodshunter]

I havent "allowed" him to go with, he broke and the bird wasnt shot or cap gun shot. He is learning everytime he sees a bird. Just today he let me get in front of him and search .. little did he know the birds flew when he was was on the other side so i called him over there to the scent and he pointed the scent

[northwoodshunter]

But if he continues to break i will not shoot or anything and will bring the check cord back out for the training birds like you said, start over

[Stoneface]

I've changed the way I do things since that video was shot (and have lost some weight, too), but you have to thin about why she's following you in. She is afraid after all her work of finding the bird and pointing it, you're going to flush it and get it and she's going to be left in the cold. What you do is snap a cord on her after she goes on point and have someone hold it. You walk in, flush the bird, shoot it, then go get it, bring it to her and throw it to her. You should see something click after that. You're retrieving the bird to her so she understands it is team work. It's not just her doing her thing and you're following her around. Next, I would have a remote launcher or a manual launcher if you have someone helping you. When she points, you walk in from the opposite side. Make a big circle and walk in. She'll probably get nervous and move in. The SECOND she moves in, you pop the bird. You're teaching her that your movement doesn't bother the bird at all. The bird is immune to your movement, but it can't stand dog movement. Gets away fast. After you do this a few times you can walk past her no problem to get the bird up and she should stay. Just some thoughts.

You can eMail me if you have any more questions. Stoneface.Kennels@yahoo.com

[Stoneface]

Also, I don't teach Whoa any longer and NEVER, EVER use it on birds except in very special occasions.