7 month old English pointer catches quail

jjunkies · Post by **jjunkies** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:42 pm

I think I know the answer to this question but asking it anyway to be sure.

I have this 7 month old EP. When we are out in fields or just mountain camping. My EP runs and circles awsome. It's just natural to her. She points at everything grasshoppers, anything that moves. I caught her pointing at small birds real hard and perfect. They were all sight points but good form and hard with no creeping. Bird takes off she chases them and realizes she can't catch them.
So I went out and got some quail to try. At first I was keeping it in a small area. My backyard to keep control. I know she smelled them but ran in and grabbed them. I have corrected her on it with small shock on collar to let go. Then reset on point when I know she smells them.

Some times she stops to point when she smells them but then bust in before I can react to stop her. So I went to a bigger field and hiding them. She's doing the same thing with them out there. Sometimes she points not long or hard but stops just long enough to look to see them. I stop her with lead and get her set and pointing. Birds get flushed but not long flyers so she see them land and run. Then it's chase and catch.

I'm sure I need to do pigeons for flying but haven't gotten them yet and really don't want to waist the money on basically one time use. Also how can I keep them from flying till I'm ready to have them fly.

Any other help till I get them on my training.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:11 pm

I use hard flying pigeons for initial training. Not hard to get here at small animal auctions. I can't have a pigeon coop as I live in the city ( bylaws). I buy 6-8 them once a week and keep them in a large crate. They have to be used within that week or they won't fly hard. A bit of a drag but I only need them for maybe 8 weeks. At maybe $2.00 a bird it's one of the cheaper parts of training.
Then I switch to quail.Woodcock in the Fall are great wild training birds too.
Not as sophisticated an arrangement as many on here , but it works.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:44 am

Pigeons and a remote launcher. And a program to follow. Go get those now.

Also, know I have the best of intentions when I say this: what in the h3ll are you doing shocking a 7 month old puppy on birds?!?!? Do you want this dog to start blinking birds? And to a lesser extent, what are you doing restraining it to make it "point?" That is not how you nurture the pointing instinct. It's not obedience.

Seriously, go get a program, learn it. Read/watch it repeatedly. Then go follow it. And next time you plan to shock that dog on point, calmly collect your puppy, take the collar off, strap it to your own neck, and crank up the juice.

I say this because I don't want you to ruin a good dog.

jjunkies · Post by **jjunkies** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:36 am

Mnaj-springer I understand and see your point on what I was doing and might be doing wrong on my pup. i will take it in consideration but you sir are the reason I do not usually post or pay attention to forums. So I'm out and done with this sight. Thanks for the bullshit.

Higgins · Post by **Higgins** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:34 pm

Hello Jjunkies,

Sounds like a nice pup you have there.

I like to build a lot of bird drive in the young pups before I ask for steadiness. Here is a video of a young pointer learning the ropes.

Hope you enjoy it.

https://vimeo.com/56924329

NEhomer · Post by **NEhomer** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:57 am

jjunkies wrote:Mnaj-springer I understand and see your point on what I was doing and might be doing wrong on my pup. i will take it in consideration but you sir are the reason I do not usually post or pay attention to forums. So I'm out and done with this sight. Thanks for the bullshit.

Hey man, for the sake of your dog, you might want to put your big boy pants on.'

Shocking a young pup that's pointing the game you wish it to point is simply absurd. If you did more reading before beginning, you would surly not do that.

A remote launcher is an absolute essential. A dog cannot catch a launched bird so go get one but as springer said, get a program and follow it.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:57 am

I wondered what quail you were talking about when I read it, wild or pen raised. Unless you have some really great flying bird, Forget game farm birds. You mentioned you didn't want to pay for one time bird's but that's pretty muck what you did! Two way's to go. either get a 20' check cord and a partner to help you or a remote release trap and use pigeon's. Use them right and you only pay for them one time. I've had my ferals here over 26 yrs and the start for them I brought over from where I was living before. I have never had to buy pigeons. Build yourself a small pigeon coup to keep them coming back. You do that and it won't be long till you have to shoot some to keep from getting over crowded. Once settled, you won't be able to just turn them loose to get rid of them, they will go back where they know the food and water is! Find an original copy of, The Best Way to Train Your Bird Dog x Delmar Smith. I say the original as I think it was upgraded to use a flank collar on the dog in whoa training. I find it hard to learn and pretty much useless, I have used to whoa post for many years and done right it work's well. There's using a barrel, never did that Value of it escapes me. Then there the place board and the walk at heal. Walk at heal does make sense to me. Nothing more than teaching a dog to heel then rather than having it sit when you stop stop and give the whoa command. I still do whoa post though as it has never failed me>

Keep walking your pup and letting it do as it want's with any wild bird it come's across, it will not catch them! If you get your pup wound up on desire by catching game farm bird's, that is something you'll have to over come when you start training, You taught him he could catch birds and next step you need to either tech him it's not what you want, check cord and hepler, or you'll have to start over with remote traps and teach it he reall can't catch birds. Think about what your doing and how your teaching the dog not to do it only to have to come back later and unteach it! KISS, keep it simple stupid. When you start to wonder off track, KISS. And don't get several different opinion's on how to train from other's until you doing well with one way first! Don't train your dog to do as you want, teach it to do what you want. Think about that!

jjunkies · Post by **jjunkies** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:24 am

Ok let me clarify on this topic again. If you read my post it says a small shock to release the bird. Not shock to point or chase. Still might be wrong to do but was in the field on this try.
I assure you all that it had no affect on her because she is still doing everything as I stated before. Jumps in and grabs the birds. For the ones of you asking I got some courtnix quail that are pen raised. I also stated that I did not want to buy birds and have to replace them after everytime we work with my dog. Could get very expensive and was hoping to keep a few for a few more times.
I have gotten some more info and instructions that I am going to use and try out.

NEhomer · Post by **NEhomer** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:51 pm

jjunkies, you need at least one remote launcher. You must be in control of when the bird flushes. That cannot be left to chance.

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:30 pm

jjunkies wrote:Mnaj-springer I understand and see your point on what I was doing and might be doing wrong on my pup. i will take it in consideration but you sir are the reason I do not usually post or pay attention to forums. So I'm out and done with this sight. Thanks for the bullshit.

Listen, I was not trying to be offensive at all, but I was definitely not sugar-coating anything (which was intentional). Did I cross the line? Probably, but I'll let you decide. But either way, whether this puppy was pointing or whatever else, I would not shock this dog around birds. That will not be productive. I've seen and heard of people doing some stupid stuff with puppies, so if the extremism of my response caused you to reconsider, then I'm glad I said it.

So do you have a program? Are you researching some programs at least?

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:21 pm

jjunkies wrote:Mnaj-springer I understand and see your point on what I was doing and might be doing wrong on my pup. i will take it in consideration but you sir are the reason I do not usually post or pay attention to forums. So I'm out and done with this sight. Thanks for the bullshit.

He gave you good advice. Stuck his neck out in order to help. Don't leave. Learn and enjoy your dog.

(The problem with any kind of correction around the bird is that the dog may think the bird is giving him the correction and then want nothing to do with birds. )

mtlee · Post by **mtlee** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:35 am

I agree with those who say at least one launcher is a must. However, they are expensive. Many years ago before I got mine I was using a baby sock and a string. I'm sure somebody on this site recommended it to me. Tie a long string to the sock (20 ft or so). Dizzy the pigeon and little, plant him with the sock on his head so he won't go anywhere. If the dog isn't pointing at all try having a helper lightly pull the sock off the pigeons head (from a distance of course) when your dog gets close to the scent cone. If he moves in the pigeon should fly. Once he starts establishing point you can pull the string yourself and won't need the helper. If he goes in, the bird should fly. Loose pen raised quail can be counterproductive...I learned that with my first pointing dog. The baby sock + pigeon method is not ideal, launchers are, but it's better than loose birds until you can get a launcher or 2.

I also have a .pdf of a pigeon loft plan that is really easy an inexpensive to build. If you have bird dogs you need birds, for most of us that's pigeons. Send me a private message if you want the plans.

Good luck.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:07 pm

That is how I trained long before I had ever seen a remote launcher and have recommended it for folks who have just one dog to train. All of the new electronic equipment is really great but awful expensive to just use once.

GSPONPOINT32 · Post by **GSPONPOINT32** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:24 pm

Jjunkies,
I just got done with basic obedience with my 10mo old GSP pup. Everyone here is a big help when you have questions. I'm a new trainer and have made mistakes but my pup and I have a great relationship and will have fun hunting birds this year because of one principle that my breeder suggested.

No matter what the dog must know that birds are fun. If birds and field work ends with discipline and negative reinforcement he won't want to hunt birds.

Good luck and leave the collar in its box until the pup and you know what it means.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Urban_Redneck · Post by **Urban_Redneck** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:30 am

https://youtu.be/FP9II8PpvqU

To get around the "one-time use" of pigeons you can card them and they'll still fly better than pen raised quail.

YMMV

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:54 pm

jjunkies wrote:I think I know the answer to this question but asking it anyway to be sure.

I have this 7 month old EP. When we are out in fields or just mountain camping. My EP runs and circles awsome. It's just natural to her. She points at everything grasshoppers, anything that moves. I caught her pointing at small birds real hard and perfect. They were all sight points but good form and hard with no creeping. Bird takes off she chases them and realizes she can't catch them.
So I went out and got some quail to try. At first I was keeping it in a small area. My backyard to keep control. I know she smelled them but ran in and grabbed them. I have corrected her on it with small shock on collar to let go. Then reset on point when I know she smells them.

Some times she stops to point when she smells them but then bust in before I can react to stop her. So I went to a bigger field and hiding them. She's doing the same thing with them out there. Sometimes she points not long or hard but stops just long enough to look to see them. I stop her with lead and get her set and pointing. Birds get flushed but not long flyers so she see them land and run. Then it's chase and catch.

I'm sure I need to do pigeons for flying but haven't gotten them yet and really don't want to waist the money on basically one time use. Also how can I keep them from flying till I'm ready to have them fly.

Any other help till I get them on my training.

jj -

This will be relatively short and straightforward.

If you do not have the proper tools to train your dog...don't. You WILL screw your pup up.

Your pup...is a pup. Concentrate on the things you CAN do, like yardwork. Heel/whoa drills in the yard, barrel or bench work, recall, kennel up, fetch and hold. Stuff like that. The better your pup listens to you in the yard...the better it will listen to you in the field. When you do go afield, work on bending the dog to handle at the range you like,and getting the dog to come in, go out and turn... when and where you want it to. You don't need birds for any of that.

When the season comes around, take the dog hunting...BY YOURSELF... and do not shoot anything the dog busts and/or chases. Wild birds will teach the dog a lot of what it needs to know.

By the end of the season, you will have a pup that is about ready for pigeons and training...and if you put together a loft now, you will have pigeons in the loft to train the pup with.

By the end of the season, you will have had time to do some reading and figure out a plan.

Patience.

RayG

Soignie · Post by **Soignie** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:44 pm

Find a training group or a local pro to help you or simply expose the pup to any/all the wild game birds that you can. meanwhile, put the e-collar around your neck and every time you think you should shock the pup then shock yourself. E-collar is a helpful tool in the hands of someone who knows how/when to use it, you are fortunate that your pup has enough drive that she wasn't ruined by your first attempt, don't press your luck.

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