Whoe breaking & steadiness on point

GSP Enthusiast · Post by **GSP Enthusiast** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:45 pm

What is your best individual advice for getting a dog steady on point or Whoe broke? I have a 1 year old GSP that is wanting to crowd his birds a bit much and I need to get a handle on it before it goes too far. Thanks in advance for the advice!

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:51 pm

How are you training right now? What type of birds have you been using? How are you using them? The way I do it getting a dog steady or whoa broke won't help with crowding birds.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:13 pm

GSP Enthusiast wrote:What is your best individual advice for getting a dog steady on point or Whoe broke? I have a 1 year old GSP that is wanting to crowd his birds a bit much and I need to get a handle on it before it goes too far. Thanks in advance for the advice!

That is actually an easy fix...if you have a couple of remote launchers.

Bring the dog in to the scent cone downwind and perpendicular to the launcher. Watch the dog like a hawk. You know precisely where you put the launcher and you know exactly where the wind is blowing because you tested it. So you will have a very good idea where the dog should encounter scent.

The INSTANT the dog acknowledges the scent cone...if it does not stop and grow roots RIGHT THEN...launch the bird. The acknowledgement may be very slight, such as a turn of the head, a raising of the nose or a hesitation, so be on the lookout. If it takes so much as one step more...launch the bird.

The reason the dog is crowding birds is...simply put...because it can. Wild birds would not put up with that nonsense. They would be GONE,,, run or fly...but they would be gone.

You have to make your dog respect training birds in the same way. Obviously if you have wild birds available, use them.

RayG

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:26 pm

Whoa breaking doesn't have anything to do with birds, steadiness is a process that usually ends with a dog being steady to wing and shot. This comes from repeated exposure to birds that won't tolerate crowding. Short answer is only shoot birds your dog lets you flush. They learn real quick the only way to get the bird is if you flush and shoot. Break the dog next summer on pigeons the way RayG describes, and finish up on gamebirds of your choice wild or good flying pen birds.

GSPONPOINT32 · Post by **GSPONPOINT32** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:44 pm

Awesome post Ray. I've been launching pigeons for two weeks and I've seen improvement in both distance and steadiness.

My question: do you lead a young dog in with a CC or let him chase the flying bird. I've done both but he seems to take pleasure in chasing the bird over the hill. My CC is only 25ft so I fee like I'm really holding him back when he's on it. Apologies if I'm being dense when you mention "lead" in the post

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RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:32 pm

GSPONPOINT32 wrote:Awesome post Ray. I've been launching pigeons for two weeks and I've seen improvement in both distance and steadiness.

My question: do you lead a young dog in with a CC or let him chase the flying bird. I've done both but he seems to take pleasure in chasing the bird over the hill. My CC is only 25ft so I fee like I'm really holding him back when he's on it. Apologies if I'm being dense when you mention "lead" in the post

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GSPONPOINT -

I typically use a 20 - 25 ft. lead on my young dogs when I am training. I let them drag it... but I do keep them close...real close. Two things I teach my dogs to do is to "hunt close" and "hunt dead". When I cue my dog to hunt close, I want it to work the cover very thoroughly and not range out away from me. When I command "Hunt Dead" I want the dog to put its nose on the ground. Obviously I train in the "Hunt Dead" command to facilitate shot game recovery.

Either command keeps them pretty much underfoot, which is just where I want them. Also, when they approach a launcher location, I make it my business to be somewhere that I can step on the checkcord, if that becomes necessary. I prefer to interfere as little as possible, but If I have to stop the dog with a verbal command , so I can get into position, I will do that. You ALWAYS want to be in a position to provide positive cues and feedback, and especially to be able to instantly correct the dog when it messes up...especially when the mess-up is around game.

A well respected shooting dog pro that I know, teaches all of his dogs to "hunt" on command. He uses a specific whistle, pretty much the reverse of a "bob-white" call to cue his dogs to come out of warp drive and thoroughly hunt the cover they are in. It has obvious implications in planted bird trials, but I see no reason why the average hunting dog (and hunter) could not benefit from learning that type of skill. I taught my dogs to both hunt close and hunt dead long before I got into trials and having dogs with those skills has come in handy many times, both at trials and in the field.

Hope the above helps.

BTW, if you don't fully understand something and DON'T ask for clarification... now, that could be considered kinda dense, IMO.

Good training.

RayG

GSPONPOINT32 · Post by **GSPONPOINT32** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:32 pm

Thanks so much for the clarification. We are certainly not to the point where the dog will hunt close or dead on command but he will stay close instinctively with the CC on.

Thanks again

Brian

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Post by **mnaj_springer** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:44 am

You can definitely teach a young dog to hunt dead. Especially one with a strong retrieving desire. I taught my "meat dog" EP that by hiding a bumper she likes then bringing her to the area and quietly say "dead bird." She already knew what the scent of the dummy meant so she made the association. Then naturally transfered this to birds. With the birds I made sure there was a shot beforehand (so she furthers the association of gunshot and retrieves). I've already used it 3 times this fall on birds she hasn't seen fall. It isn't the prettiest hunt dead, and it makes me appreciate my spaniel, but it sure is handy because woodcock are hard to spot in the leaf litter.

But if Ray gives you differing advice on how to train those skills, follow his advice. He has a lot more experience than I.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:31 am

I would let this dog chase a lot of good flying birds. Maybe even catch a couple to get him jacked up. The problem with launchers and pigeons is That dogs become bored with them and start losing their intensity or start to creep. When the dog learns he can not catch the bird, he is much more likely to hold his point. It also helps to get good flying chukars or Quail, anything that will get him excited and give him a change of pace. I also do not worry much about steadiness the first year as long as he will let me go to the front and flush the bird. Over training is tough on intensity.
Remember everytime you put something into the dog you take something out. Be very carefully with the launcher training and watch for signs of boredom.
Good birds make good dogs. Most dogs learn that launchers are phony Quite quickly. The more wild birds or good flying pen raised birds the better.
Oh, by the some wild birds hold very well and let dogs get really close.........................CJ

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:05 am

Well said!

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:18 am

cjhills wrote:...
Remember everytime you put something into the dog you take something out. Be very carefully with the launcher training and watch for signs of boredom.
Good birds make good dogs. Most dogs learn that launchers are phony Quite quickly. The more wild birds or good flying pen raised birds the better.
Oh, by the some wild birds hold very well and let dogs get really close.........................CJ

I agree. Launchers do help a dog learn not to jump in, and can be useful for creepers as well up front, but I have found that switching to "real birds" and "birds on the ground" usually brings back the old bad habits. Most dogs require lots and lots of repetition on the Check Cord and E-collar(at the right times and carefully!) on actual game birds to make the transfer. And even then they may sometimes "cheat" on birds that don't fly well. Oddly, most dogs seem to have a sixth sense for the birds that will be catchable. Also launchers are electronic. They malfunction. and one or two launchers that don't go off and allow the dog to jump in on that pigeon can set you back a good long ways just like birds that don't fly. There is no magic trick. It's all Train, train more, and repeat.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:13 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:You can definitely teach a young dog to hunt dead. Especially one with a strong retrieving desire. I taught my "meat dog" EP that by hiding a bumper she likes then bringing her to the area and quietly say "dead bird." She already knew what the scent of the dummy meant so she made the association. Then naturally transfered this to birds. With the birds I made sure there was a shot beforehand (so she furthers the association of gunshot and retrieves). I've already used it 3 times this fall on birds she hasn't seen fall. It isn't the prettiest hunt dead, and it makes me appreciate my spaniel, but it sure is handy because woodcock are hard to spot in the leaf litter.

But if Ray gives you differing advice on how to train those skills, follow his advice. He has a lot more experience than I.

That actually sounds like a good way. If the dog likes bumpers and retrieving...might be a great way. I do not typically train my dogs to retrieve as youngsters, since my focus is on no-kill field trials. I do not want the dogs to even think about moving at all once they establish point. I save the retrieve thing for when they are considerably older and might be a bit stale or Ho Hum on planted birds.

I start my dogs on "hunt dead" VERY early. I drop a few treats on the ground in several locations in the back yard. I then call the puppy over and give the hunt dead command. It is amazing just how quickly a ten week old pointer puppy learns to put their nose right down on the ground and Hoover those treats.

I have found that it transfers very seamlessly in the field with the dog's natural desire to find game substituting for its love of treats.

Hunt close is very much more of a trained behavior and requires consistent discipline and pressure to keep a dog close... especially one that is bred to run into the next zip code.

RayG

GSP Enthusiast · Post by **GSP Enthusiast** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:38 pm

Thanks to all for the advice. I have started walking the dog on a leash, with a pinch collar, working on the whoe command. I will work on the steadiness at a local preserve every chance I get. I know wild birds won't tolerate the creeping, but I would like to get him farther along before seasons opens. Would you recommend an e collar around the waist before the whoe command is fully understood with pinch collar? Thanks again

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:39 pm

Pretty sure you are going to take the style out of the dog by trying to train whoa with a pinch collar.
If you have birds, take the dog to the field when he points a bird walk out a bit to the side around the dog and flush the bird. Use some sort of a command. Maybe hold up a hand or a quiet "whoa" whatever you have taught him.
You can teach this in the kennel or house when you feed him or just hanging out. At this stage if you are looking for a hunting dog you do not need a rock solid whoa. In fact I want my gun dogs to move to mark the bird. If the dog is not steady do not shoot the bird if you want him steady to flush and shot (actually I would shoot the bird because I don't care if a one year old dog is steady to flush if he lets me walk in front). I am more working on confidence. The point is get a solid whoa somewhere other than in the field before you put much pressure on him to be steady on birds. I do not need a one year old broke dog.
I might look at this a bit different if I was training a trial dog that never has a retrieve it is easier if he never learns to retrieve ad has a rock solid whoa.......................Cj

GSP Enthusiast · Post by **GSP Enthusiast** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:19 pm

So what is the best way to teach a solid whoe command in the yard? I was trying the pinch collar while walking the dog on a leash and when I would stop I would say whoe and give slight tension with the pinch collar, then hold my hand in front of him and say whoe again, then I would walk around him and so on, if
He moves i pick him up, set him back where he was when I gave the command and try to walk around him again. I do not want to take the style out of this dog. Thanks

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:19 pm

GSP Enthusiast wrote:So what is the best way to teach a solid whoe command in the yard? I was trying the pinch collar while walking the dog on a leash and when I would stop I would say whoe and give slight tension with the pinch collar, then hold my hand in front of him and say whoe again, then I would walk around him and so on, if
He moves i pick him up, set him back where he was when I gave the command and try to walk around him again. I do not want to take the style out of this dog. Thanks

Your method is a low pressure way to go but I have always used a whoa post and had good luck with that. I think it works better because it is taught as a separate lessen and not just part of heeling or going for a walk. And it also produces a forced stop and not just a stop walking. I do like to use a pinch collar for most hands on training except when I am having the pup drag a CC then a wide nylon works well. The steadiness is a whole different ball game and launchers are a great tool that works really well but that will come at a different time than what you are wanting to do now/

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:34 am

GSP Enthusiast wrote:So what is the best way to teach a solid whoe command in the yard? I was trying the pinch collar while walking the dog on a leash and when I would stop I would say whoe and give slight tension with the pinch collar, then hold my hand in front of him and say whoe again, then I would walk around him and so on, if
He moves i pick him up, set him back where he was when I gave the command and try to walk around him again. I do not want to take the style out of this dog. Thanks

My dogs are learning whoa from the time they start going outside. They are given a whoa command at the door coming and going, when they are fed and sometimes just running around on a checkcord. Eventually they are put on a elevated platform of some sort and learn to stand still for distractions, such as birds being thrown ,locked wing pigeons or hobbled pigeons that can fly 50 feet or so. Usually we do not get into serious whoa until the dog is in the second year and has one season of hunting under his belt.
Casual whoa training with a pinch collar is probably alright and setting him back is okay. Be a bit careful about how you pick him up. Remember the tail is not a handle. I have seen people use the tail and the collar. I hate that.
Keep in mind you are teaching at this point, don't lose your cool. Later on when you are training and he has confidence and knows "whoa" you can be a bit more aggressive. Also by the time we teach whoa the dog is collar conditioned and we can reinforce with the collar. Go lightly on that. Be very careful with the collar around his waist, some dogs really hate that. Keep him happy and watch for signs of withdrawal.
Perfection kennel videos might be good. however their method requires a lot of birds and is hard for on person to use.....................CJ

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:45 am

Take a look at this
You don't need a bunch of pigeons with this method
http://www.oknavhda.com/docs/Steady_With_Style.pdf

JJT · Post by **JJT** » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:21 pm

Agree with quill.

Broke my first dog this summer using method.

Keeps it between the bird and dog. It takes some reps but I found it fun with little stress on either of us.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:19 am

I'm gonna go a bit different than Ray. I do exactly the same thing except I don't wait and give the dog a chance to stop. As soon as the dog come's into the scent cone I pop the bird. I do that until the dog get's stopped before I can pop the bird. I say nothing to the dog. Then a go wide around the dog to flush. i know where the bird is so I don't take my eye's off the dog. It so much as glance's at me out of the corner of it's eye, I pop the bird and send the dog on. The idea being the dog learns that it's any movement on it's part and the the bird is gone. Without traps you can't do it. But we've all done dog's before traps. Require's a check cord and a helper. You handle your dog and the helper handles the flushing. In the end the result is the same but the end with the CC is a lot farther off. I've had people come to me with problem dog's that they swore would not point and those that swore their dog would not point a pigeon. It never took more than six or seven birds to get the dog pointing. Small trick with the remote. Act and think like a bird. Allow the dog to learn!

GSPONPOINT32 · Post by **GSPONPOINT32** » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:05 am

I'm a new trainer and just started getting my pup to point and be steady. I've found over the course of two months that putting the launcher in some briers or thicker cover with a hole for the pigeon to launch has really encouraged him to allow me to get in front. Just thought I would pass along for anyone else at the same point with similar training experience.

It sure was great seeing him naturally point for the first time and now getting more and more steady. I have been giving ZERO commands thus far and let the birds teach him to stay still.

Brian

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