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Bumper drive

Bumper drive

Postby african_outdoorsman » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:52 pm

Hi Guys

I am from South Africa. My GSP pup is 6 months old and she is my first gun dog. I am really new to the whole training thing but I am learning along the way and loving being out with her and the bond we have developed. She isnt a very eager retriever in the garden but water retrieves which we do once a week she is fine I have never over done the retrieving either always kept it to 2-3 retrieves every day or second day. I saw on Willow creek Kennels Youtube channel that Chad Hines does a thing called bumper drive which is a bumper on a sting and letting the pup chase the bump and then retrieve it. Do you guys think it will help her with her retrieving by making it more fun for her and getting her more interested in the bumper. I am not sure as what would be the correct thing to do at this stage. I would really appreciate the help

Regards
Eddie
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby mnaj_springer » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:16 am

You could try that method. Chad is a good trainer and he does a really nice job with his dogs and his clients' dogs.

If my dogs get stale on dummies I stop for about a week and then come back to it with a short session and lots of praise. That usually turns them around. But some dogs just don't like bumpers...
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby Trekmoor » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:50 pm

If you are doing a lot of free running with the pup it may become too hunting orientated to be really interested in retrieving. I have met pups of that sort a few times and I ceased all hunting until the pups became keener on retrieving .........if those pups wanted to do something then I made sure that the "something" was retrieving.

This may not matter much if you intend to F.F. train the pup eventually but if, like me, you train without using F.F. then you have to boost the pups "natural" retrieve instinct. I do that by restricting or by ceasing to permit a pup's free running/hunting.

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Re: Bumper drive

Postby gundogguy » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:53 am

Trekmoor wrote:If you are doing a lot of free running with the pup it may become too hunting orientated to be really interested in retrieving. I have met pups of that sort a few times and I ceased all hunting until the pups became keener on retrieving .........if those pups wanted to do something then I made sure that the "something" was retrieving.

This may not matter much if you intend to F.F. train the pup eventually but if, like me, you train without using F.F. then you have to boost the pups "natural" retrieve instinct. I do that by restricting or by ceasing to permit a pup's free running/hunting.

Bill T.

Veru Good I have this to be the case with very many dogs in the beginning of their conditioning.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby polmaise » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:49 pm

african_outdoorsman wrote:Hi Guys

I am from South Africa (1). My GSP pup is 6 months old and she is my first gun dog (2). I am really new to the whole training thing but I am learning along the way and loving being out with her and the bond we have developed (3). She isnt a very eager retriever in the garden but water retrieves which we do once a week she is fine (4)I have never over done the retrieving either always kept it to 2-3 retrieves every day or second day. (5) I saw on Willow creek Kennels Youtube channel that Chad Hines does a thing called bumper drive which is a bumper on a sting and letting the pup chase the bump and then retrieve it (6). Do you guys think it will help her with her retrieving by making it more fun for her and getting her more interested in the bumper (7). I am not sure as what would be the correct thing to do at this stage. I would really appreciate the help (8)

Regards
Eddie

Hi Eddie,
I'm having a beer with an 'Old Mentor' right now and I'm approaching 60 real fast ,so you have either caught me at a good moment or a bad one whilst I read Your post .
I digest :
(1) It really doesn't matter where you live or come from or the breed of the dog ,the factors of temperature and availability of ground and game does ! heck, I can get a Greyhound to chase ,but I can't get it to 'Point' !!
(2) 6 months old Dog and Your First Gun Dog ! ..You go get a 'GSP' ?...Nothing wrong with that ..But What's the end Goal ?..There are many stages before that 'dream' that most who have a 6 month old pup and who have never had any Gun Dog before ..
(3) Bond and having a 6 month old Pup do what it wants but really isn't doing anything that you eventually want it to do ,but it isn't going too far because it's just a pup is a recipe for disaster ,and a Bond that will never be replicated (with the intention of hunting) .
(4) Retrieving in the Garden is Boring in the Garden if it ain't fun ! ...If it was fun any dog no matter the breed would do it over and over again !.So Once a week is not learning fun on a daily basis ?
(5) ..Number (4) should give my reply ..If it don't ...It's all gone wrong so far .
(6) There are millions of examples on Internet on what 'should be done' and what 'You should do' . I haven't seen one yet that shows You and Your dog and what You should be doing tomorrow ,based on what you and your dog are like in Your daily 'conditioning' for Your end goal .
(7) Anything that involves movement will encourage 'chase' ! If you encourage it , so yes it will help your dog chase/catch . Retrieving however does not involve that process,and neither does flush or Point . (unless I'm totally wrong ) ?
(8) Advice including mine can be mis-understood on the internet or forums and I believe you never really know if the advice is right for You or just right for those posting , so It's a big Ask for someone that can't or won't or doesn't have the time or inclination with any reward to help or guide with the same/best intentions as those posted.
............
Whenever a technique or drill or exercise is suggested by anyone on here ,they are giving there very best suggestions based on their dog or dogs and what they or their dogs have done .
(9) I added 9, because my mentor said ..''That's the best Dollar I have ever seen offered'' .
atb
R.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby Ouzel » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:37 pm

Some great retrievers start out with lack luster desire for bumpers - and then there are lot of dogs who never develop much of an interest. You can not worry about it and see how it changes as the dog matures or do some things to encourage it. I would suggest playing retrieve with a tennis ball or similar object to incite the chase instinct others have mentioned. Most dogs (pretty much any breed) love to chase a tennis ball and pretty quickly the dog figures out that it will get to chase more if it brings it back to you. Then gradually move from a tennis ball to something else and then on to a bumper. Also, trading a retrieve for a treat ( kernels of dog food, hot dog, etc.) works wonders. Once the desired behavior is ingrained you can reduce the amount of reward without fear that you've created a bad habit. Further, using food as rewards allows you to shape the dog's style ( i.e. reward for holding the object until given a command to drop, or only reward once the dog has precisely sat holding the dummy, etc.).
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby Trekmoor » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:18 am

I'm a bit wary of using treats as retrieve delivery rewards. Something is a little bit wrong with my timing or with how I do it so what sometimes happens to me is that the pup/dog I'm training drops the dummy in anticipation of the treat.

I get a better result when using treats for retrieve delivery purposes if the treat is given as part of a clicker trained retrieve.

Bill T.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby Ouzel » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:17 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I'm a bit wary of using treats as retrieve delivery rewards. Something is a little bit wrong with my timing or with how I do it so what sometimes happens to me is that the pup/dog I'm training drops the dummy in anticipation of the treat.

I get a better result when using treats for retrieve delivery purposes if the treat is given as part of a clicker trained retrieve.


Timing is important. A "clicker trained retrieve" is powerful and one can study it's methods on Youtube. Although I thoroughly endorse it, a "good girl/boy" works just as well as a click.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby polmaise » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:52 pm

I have never found 'clicker retrieve training' or 'food reward retriever training' inducing to drive to a bumper or anything else .
However ,the return part is often useful. ..But then I've also found that also slows down that part too .Although the task is completed.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby knottypines5 » Tue May 29, 2018 8:57 am

What types of bumpers work best for puppies, I found one solid review on dog training bumpers https://thewaterfowlhunter.com/dog-bumpers/. However, I was looking to see what works the best for pups, so they can hold it and won't chew it up too bad.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby isonychia » Wed May 30, 2018 8:09 am

The nice thing about retriever training and building a natural retrieve is this; If it doesn't work it isn't really that big of a deal because later down the road you can (should) force fetch anyways, that works. So go for it, try that method out.

As far as best bumpers for pups, if you are trying to keep it fun I would say a small canvas bumper. Those big plastic ones, including smaller plastic bird shaped dummies were never favorites for my dogs... in fact, I knew once and for all that force fetch worked when they would pick those up. Canvas is a different story.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby deseeker » Wed May 30, 2018 8:57 am

I like using paint rollers--they are light, cheap, come in different sizes, and pups like picking them up & carrying them around.
Good luck with the pup :D
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby Featherfinder » Wed May 30, 2018 12:31 pm

Issy, you stole my thunder! I was going to ask if you are using a plastic bumper? Some dogs hate the texture of plastic and/or the offensive stench!
I had to re-train a dog that found "a hole" after being successfully FFed!! (A story for another day.)
I took some time to study this dog before embarking on a tailored strategy. I found out that this particular dog LOVED to run - beyond LOVED to run! I have seen this in a number of dogs. They get up to the downed bird, sniff, even grab it, then spit it out and take off! They would rather go find more birds than finish the process with a boring retrieve, but I digress.
So, I sat on my truck tailgate with a canvas bumper (which was later replaced with a dead bird). I let this particular dog out onto the tailgate before the others. I lured it with the bumper (still on the tailgate) but she showed no interest. So, I quietly put her away, let out the other dogs one-at-a-time for a decent run while shouting, "ATTA BOY!!!"...and off we went, while the non-retriever sat in her crate whining. "Sorry...no run for you. Perhaps next outing?"
(Fast forward.) Yesterday, I hid a dead pigeon in the pine stand out back of here - fired one blank round - casually walked back to her kennel - CRANKED her up with,"Want to find it? Want to find it???" I could barely hold onto her! Finally I said, "Dead bird!!", and cut her loose.
She TORE off and scoured the pine trees. She found the bird bounced straight back to me and sat next to me tail wagging STILL with bird in mouth until I said,"Out."
Yes, there is a lot of work in this dog that I have left out of the process but I think you get my point. Sometimes, we need to put the end at the beginning. :wink:
Actually, Brad Higgins is what seeded this thought process in reading some of his concepts. Thank you Mr. Higgins!
Dog training is a journey, not a destination.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby polmaise » Wed May 30, 2018 1:33 pm

polmaise wrote:I have never found 'clicker retrieve training' or 'food reward retriever training' inducing to drive to a bumper or anything else .
However ,the return part is often useful. ..But then I've also found that also slows down that part too .Although the task is completed.

Two years on .............
I'm still the same .
What say you guys ? .. :mrgreen:
plastic /mastic smuch ! ..a retrieve is a retrieve , no matter if Higgins or Biggins said so .. Some should perhaps look at themselves before anything else .
Featherfinder , ...You are just absolutely wonderful .
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby DonF » Thu May 31, 2018 9:22 am

At some point you'll find that everyone that has managed to train their own dog has made it somehow. Pretty much all system's work if you remain consistent in what your doing, pay attention to what your training and think more like a dog than a human. Training in the end is about consistency. Keep in mind that what your dog does not do at 10' it will not do at 11' and beyond, Start out close. Young dogs like to chase things. Easy with a pup on a 20' check cord to control the pup, gently. Also the pup will chase the bumper if you toss it close and let the pup go with the toss, chasing is part of their thing. A few toss's and done for the day. Leave it wanting more and don't do it till the pup quits!

I have never bought a training dummy, I make my own. levi material cut to size and sewed up properly then stuffed with some light weight material that floats is great. Can't remember the name of the stuff, may be kpok or something. MTY shot bags work very well when stuffed too. Problem is that today they seem to be making all of them out of plastic rather than canvas.
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Re: Bumper drive

Postby averageguy » Thu May 31, 2018 9:39 am

Maybe too late for the OP's pup but this is how I work my puppies in developing their natural retrieve in the initial stages. Homemade bumper for starters made of duct tape wrapped around an empty cardboard toilet paper roll. Very light and an easy diameter for their mouth. Then I use the tunnel as constructed and shown in the photo. Tease the pup and toss it towards the blocked end. Only one way for the puppy to go once it has the bumper in its mouth, which is back to me. When it returns to me while I am kneeled down, I praise, let the pup hold the bumper a bit, gently remove and toss it again. 2 or 3 reps is all I want and I stop while the puppy still wants another toss. I swing the bumper up into my armpit out of sight and walk away while the puppy is hopefully bouncing around wanting another toss. Having conditioned the out and back behavior I usually have less issues with keep away when we move to a more open area in the same general area. Then I have the puppy dragging a light homemade checkcord that I can get my foot on if the pup goes the opposite direction and does not respond to me going away as I call the pup and clap my hands to encourage it to follow me. When and if the pup does not return well I end the game and put the puppy up. Which is shades of the same elements in the approaches FF and BT posted.

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Re: Bumper drive

Postby averageguy » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:58 am

I have had success making bumpers more interesting by zip tying some Mallard Wings around the bumper. Conditions the dog to carrying feathers. The clicker training mentioned by others is a very good route to go as well. Michael Ellis at Leerburg has a new DVD out on the subject.
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