FF Pup

SouthernTied · Post by **SouthernTied** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:53 pm

My pup just hit his 6 month mark. Last weekend I had him at the farm while we deer hunted. I have had an issue with him this past week on retrieving to hand. He gets 10 or so feet away and drops whatever he is holding. Saturday afternoon I was working with him on basics, which he has pretty well down minus a few hiccups here and there. I had him sitting and placed the bumper to his mouth and gave the command fetch. Note: this was the first time doing this. He held the bumper nearly perfect as long as i wanted until he was told to give it. Should i really do a FF program or jsut work with him on this due to the fact he will "feth" from hand or ground without pressure.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:26 pm

Says it better than I could:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-do ... orce-fetch

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:18 am

Your pup is only 6 months old, give him some time. I'm not the expert but 6 months sure seems way too young to FF. I'd keep working with him at this age but take it slow. I think you might be asking too much and pushing him a little too hard at this young age.

GSPONPOINT32 · Post by **GSPONPOINT32** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:18 am

My 1 year old will retrieve pigeons and quail but won't carry a pheasant more than 10-15 yards. Might be FF in the spring. Too soon?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:01 pm

GSPONPOINT32 wrote:My 1 year old will retrieve pigeons and quail but won't carry a pheasant more than 10-15 yards. Might be FF in the spring. Too soon?

Your dog is old enough to FF.

AAA Gundogs · Post by **AAA Gundogs** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:08 pm

I'll generally force fetch a dog at a year +/- a couple of months.

A lot of the lab guys will force fetch at a very young age.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:33 pm

I don't force at all anymore. Before I started doing it, I always got my dog's to retrieve fine, but usually did take a bit longer. Started forcing when I started trialing. It was a thing everyone seemed to think was necessary to ensure the dog always retrieved. Well that got me going and the dog's all retrieved well, but I didn't like doing it. A six month old pup is awfully young in my opinion. Sounds like the pup already knows how but isn't finishing. When it get's close and spits it what do you do? I wouldn't let that go on. As it's coming back start backing away fairly quickly and got the object in hand while moving backward. If it fails, ignore it and go on; it's a puppy your dealing with. If you get a couple where it come's all the way back, love'em up and quit right there. Don't keep doing it till the pup quit's. Keep in mind that later on in it's life you can still go and force brake.

SouthernTied · Post by **SouthernTied** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:59 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:Your pup is only 6 months old, give him some time. I'm not the expert but 6 months sure seems way too young to FF. I'd keep working with him at this age but take it slow. I think you might be asking too much and pushing him a little too hard at this young age.

I'm not having to use any pressure at all with him. He will fetch and hold on command. I talked to the handlers at multiple kennels and they said to gauge his training off natural ability but don't rush it. He has 2 Started passes and 2 junior passes curently.

MSU Aggie · Post by **MSU Aggie** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:59 pm

I'd this is a retriever of some kind (lab, Chessie, or golden) you could start the FF process at any time. Just be aware that puppy teeth coming out well cause some issues. If this is a pointer id wait, and keep working on natural retrieve.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:30 am

I have always FF early in a pups life. It is simpler and easier and the struggle with pups learned habits are just not there. Just as soon a teeth are in and settled has always been good for me. This waiting bit has lots of negatives associated with it, get'er done early so you can get on with the more important issues of advanced training.

Swampbilly · Post by **Swampbilly** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:00 am

SouthernTied wrote:My pup just hit his 6 month mark. Last weekend I had him at the farm while we deer hunted. I have had an issue with him this past week on retrieving to hand. He gets 10 or so feet away and drops whatever he is holding. Saturday afternoon I was working with him on basics, which he has pretty well down minus a few hiccups here and there. I had him sitting and placed the bumper to his mouth and gave the command fetch. Note: this was the first time doing this. He held the bumper nearly perfect as long as i wanted until he was told to give it. Should i really do a FF program or jsut work with him on this due to the fact he will "feth" from hand or ground without pressure.

*Obedience*
Re-enforce HERE.

Keep retrieving and O.B. separate venues.

Timewise65 · Post by **Timewise65** » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:38 am

I am a retriever guy and our dogs are always FF! No exceptions ever....

Most of our dogs are FF around 6-8 months following basic obedience of sit, down, here, they have to be 90+% on basic obedience before going to FF! I always use a pro to do FF, as they have years of experience and can recognize a dog that might be a bit to immature and not ready for FF.

I believe that FF teaches a dog much more than how to retrieve to hand properly....and most trainers end it by introducing the collar conditioning as part of FF. This then sets up the collar as a primary tool for further advanced training....

Good luck

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:58 am

SouthernTied wrote:My pup just hit his 6 month mark. Last weekend I had him at the farm while we deer hunted. I have had an issue with him this past week on retrieving to hand. He gets 10 or so feet away and drops whatever he is holding. Saturday afternoon I was working with him on basics, which he has pretty well down minus a few hiccups here and there. I had him sitting and placed the bumper to his mouth and gave the command fetch. Note: this was the first time doing this. He held the bumper nearly perfect as long as i wanted until he was told to give it. Should i really do a FF program or jsut work with him on this due to the fact he will "feth" from hand or ground without pressure.

Force fetch isn't to make a dog that won't fetch, fetch. The fact that he will pick up bumper without pressure is good but is expected from a well bred dog. FF is not so much about fetching... Yes one of the end results is delivery to hand but going through a FF program is much more than that. It sets the stage for a solid foundation for any future learnings that you subject your dog to.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:45 am

[quote="CDN_Cocker" It sets the stage for a solid foundation for any future learnings that you subject your dog to.[/quote]

As a non F.F.er I don't really understand the above. Can you explain more deeply please ?

Again as a non F.F. trainer I get many dogs that do various things "wrong" when encouraging a retrieve with a dummy but I just take my time getting the pup over them and they always have so far. I think F.F. is a quicker method and it is very effective ......but maybe not for beginners ?

Bill T.

SouthernTied · Post by **SouthernTied** » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:04 pm

I have been working on fetching and back to heel then walk away and come back to heel before taking the bumper. My only issue is when he is hyped up he will heel then try to snatch away. Still no pressure. My buddy uses a lot of pressure with his GSP and his dog literally shuts down.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:41 am

SouthernTied wrote: My buddy uses a lot of pressure with his GSP and his dog literally shuts down.

When we hear about dogs shutting down during this process we are really talking about behavioral avoidance. I'll quote my earlier post." have always FF early in a pups life. It is simpler and easier and the struggle with pups learned habits are just not there. Just as soon a teeth are in and settled has always been good for me. This waiting bit has lots of negatives associated with it, get'er done early so you can get on with the more important issues of advanced training"
I do not believe every one should be doing the training when it comes to force breaking or Force Fetch, It really is the part of the training that should be left to experienced hands.
It is because the process imparts so much more than just learning how to complete a retrieve. It is really the a system that "teaches dogs how to learn" and how to retain what they have learn. How ever it must be done correctly or the collateral benefits will not be strong as they could have been. Once FF is completed steadiness, blinds, brace or what ever elevated behaviors one is interested in working on with the dog are easy peasy, for both the dog and handler

SouthernTied · Post by **SouthernTied** » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:21 am

gundogguy wrote:
SouthernTied wrote: My buddy uses a lot of pressure with his GSP and his dog literally shuts down.
When we hear about dogs shutting down during this process we are really talking about behavioral avoidance. I'll quote my earlier post." have always FF early in a pups life. It is simpler and easier and the struggle with pups learned habits are just not there. Just as soon a teeth are in and settled has always been good for me. This waiting bit has lots of negatives associated with it, get'er done early so you can get on with the more important issues of advanced training"
I do not believe every one should be doing the training when it comes to force breaking or Force Fetch, It really is the part of the training that should be left to experienced hands.
It is because the process imparts so much more than just learning how to complete a retrieve. It is really the a system that "teaches dogs how to learn" and how to retain what they have learn. How ever it must be done correctly or the collateral benefits will not be strong as they could have been. Once FF is completed steadiness, blinds, brace or what ever elevated behaviors one is interested in working on with the dog are easy peasy, for both the dog and handler

His and my dog are a month apart. My dog being the younger of the two. Mine is 6mo his is 7mo. I got a program outline from a very well known trainer and work with him for 15-30 minutes a day. I understand mine is a puppy so I am very patient. My buddy is very impatient and uses a lot of negative reinforcement. You can tell the difference when working our dogs together. His is very timid and anytime he feels he didn't do something exactly as expected he will try to hide.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:42 am

FF is dependent on the pup's mental maturity, not his age. Be aware that the GSP can be the most difficult of dog's to ff. I would usually never ff a GSP before 10-12 months. Sometimes with a dog that is too young, they build a tremendous resistance to pressure that never goes away. Retrievers are different; most can be ff'd that young.

What your dog is doing is not serious. Suck it up and ff when he show's he's ready.

To the other person with the 12 month old, ff him now.

Timewise65 · Post by **Timewise65** » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:32 pm

Funny...anytime someone brings up FF to a bunch of Field Dog folks you get a whole bunch of comments....so let me jump in!

I am a guy who has had trained retrievers for much of my adult life. Early on my trainers convinced me of the importance of Obedience training (Which is a lifelong training pursuit) followed by FF. We usually get into FF between 6 months and 8 months. A good trainer will know within a day or so, with the dog, if it is ready for FF! That decision is based on how well obedience has been done or in some cases how well the dog handles his obedience training and how mature (mentally) the pup is!

I strongly agree with those above that commented that FF is a lot more than teaching a dog to deliver to hand. Dogs that are FF properly will not have 'hard mouths', will be well conditioned to training collars. Will respond immediately to the command, fetch! Will drop on command (nice to have when you dog picks up something to drop by accident like a pill or whatever, etc. etc.

Finally, unless you are well experienced at FF a dog, I would highly recommend using a pro for this part of your training.

Good Luck....

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:17 pm

There is very big difference between retrievers ab\nd pointers and a completely different goal in their training.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:38 pm

ezzy333 wrote:There is very big difference between retrievers ab\nd pointers and a completely different goal in their training.

Ezzy

How so? If we're talking about hunting dogs, everyone wants their bird promptly and neatly delivered to hand, Pointer or retriever. I don't see the difference.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:03 pm

The difference is in the dog. Retrievers have been bred and trained to be very obedient, while the pointers have been bred for speed and independence. The mental makeup of the two are very different and it shows.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:58 pm

You do realize you can run AKC pointing dogs in AKC Retriever Hunt tests..........Cj

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:45 pm

We FF a pointing breed
same way as retriever.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:17 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:We FF a pointing breed
same way as retriever.

We do too but at a different age normally. You can tell when they are ready if you know the dog.

Timewise65 · Post by **Timewise65** » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:13 am

ezzy333 wrote:The difference is in the dog. Retrievers have been bred and trained to be very obedient, while the pointers have been bred for speed and independence. The mental makeup of the two are very different and it shows.

ezzy333....I have to disagree.... Retrievers are not bred to be "very obedient"! They are bred to be top dogs in Field Trials and all dogs must be obedient or they are not good bird dogs....!

I have hunted with many super fine pointers and flushers that are extremely obedient and exceptionally well trained. I have also hunted and owned some great retrievers that are obedient and well trained. What these dogs have been trained to do is different... but as gun dogs, basic obedience, being soft mouthed, delivering game to hand, marking a fall, hunting to scent, and having high drive, etc.. are some of the fundamentals that Retrievers and Pointers, Flushers share.

You cannot breed for obedience, you do breed for other traits like drive, good nose, high energy, intelligence, etc. The really good breeding's produce high drive dogs....that are more challenging to train obedience that a non field bred dog! So from my experience over the last 30 years with retrievers, they are actually breeding dogs smaller in stature to accommodate the high drive these dogs have. This trait has changed dramatically over the last 10-15 years in retrievers. Good trainers are more challenged to get these dogs under control in training, without losing this drive...when they do it, it is a beautiful thing to watch....all top field dogs today, have this hard drive, without it you have no chance of having a field champion!

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:58 am

I won't disagree with some of your thoughts but if there is no difference in breeding , how do you explain the difference in breeds? You will be hard pressed to find a terrier or a hound in Obedience Trials. And you won't find many pointing breeds but Labs, Shelties, and Goldens very often. My experience agrees if you try to train them. Just a for instance, you spend a lot of time teaching and reinforcing directed retrieves that means a straight line while the pointers we let them use their own instincts to get to a bird when hunting or retrieving with the minimal amount of direction from the handler.

Ezzy

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:22 pm

I'm inclined to agree with Timewise. A gun dog is bred to find and produce game for the gun, find and retrieve downed game, and deliver it to hand. Whether the dog points, flushes, or sings you a song about it, that is just a different method of doing the same fundamental tasks. There may be slight nuances that differ from breed to breed during FF, but even that I think is more of an individual dog thing and not breed. I hunt with an ECS. They are soft by nature and shut down easily. I FF'ed him at 6-7 months. Sometimes I had to cut lessons short, or approach it differently to accommodate his temperament - but he could have been a lab and had the same temperament. On these forums it seems to be easy for folks from the different camps to talk about how pointers do this, or flushers do that, or retrievers are like this.... We're really all in the same camp - we're training gun dogs, regardless of their mechanism of operation.

Timewise65 · Post by **Timewise65** » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:18 am

Ezzy,
I don't think we are that far apart! The only thing that struck me as wrong as retrievers are not bred to be obedient anymore than any other field dog! They all have to be high in trainability and that equates to obedience in the field. I would not give a dime for a dog that does not have some strong indications in its pedigree that it will be high in trainability!

The differences in the breeds is natural instincts to point, flush, quarter, track a scent, etc. Those tendencies can come from good breeding....!

Timewise65 · Post by **Timewise65** » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:20 am

CDN_Cocker...

Thanks, you said it all better than I....but one thing for sure we all love gun dogs.....!

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