FTP

[dubberly_jordan]

Is it normal that a dog gets a little slower when forcing to the pile?

[gonehuntin']

Yes. The key is to push them through it and get them in and out of FF as quickly as possible. 6-8 weeks is normal.

[CDN_Cocker]

Yes the dog is just showing reluctance. Speed will return.

[gundogguy]

Just curious, are you using e collar or healing stick as the instrument of force?

In this vid Hillman talks about a dog that is slowing down watch the whole vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vHelvi-600

[dubberly_jordan]

E-Collar

[gonehuntin']

E-Collar

Have you done the preliminary steps, jowl, ear, stick?

Whose method are you following?

[CDN_Cocker]

Just curious, are you using e collar or healing stick as the instrument of force?

In this vid Hillman talks about a dog that is slowing down watch the whole vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vHelvi-600

Great video Hal, I haven't seen this one before but its a good one! Bill has such a good way with the dogs. The big thing that this video really showcases is keeping the dog's spirits up. I think a lot of people think that FF revolves around the pressure and that there is no space for praise and fun. Keeping the dog excited is what really pays dividends later on when your dog has finished going through FF. Its the difference between a dog that comes out WANTING to make those retrieves and one that is just compelled to.

[gonehuntin']

At least in the video posted, that isn't really force. Force is all about compelling a dog to do a task against his will. It has nothing to do with retrieving desire or retrieving period. It's about delivery and giving you a tool to work with should, for some reason, the dog stop retrieving later. The method Bill teaches will result in a good delivery for the bird but he has no tools left to work with should the dog stop retrieving. I believe that's why he never competed in upper level retriever stakes, at least when I knew him but he had some mighty fine Derby dogs.

Force fetch is most important for retrievers if you plan on competing in upper stakes. Even with the current pup I have I don't plan on forcing her (DD) to the extent I would a retriever because I never plan on training her to that level.

[CDN_Cocker]

Watch the video again. He is applying pressure with the ecollar

[gonehuntin']

Watch the video again. He is applying pressure with the ecollar

m

Yes, but only lightly and only when the dog is well underway. The dog's tail never stops wagging. In a true program like the Carr program, the tail doesn't always wag.

[dubberly_jordan]

Yes I started with jowl then went to ear pinch. Tom Dokken's Retriever Training is what I follow

[gonehuntin']

Yes I started with jowl then went to ear pinch. Tom Dokken's Retriever Training is what I follow

That's a very good program, a variety of the Rex Carr program.

[CDN_Cocker]

Yes but it is the initial stages of pile work. By starting this way you can build momentum.

[gonehuntin']

Momentum doesn't matter in the least (with a retriever). First comes FORCE where they HAVE to do it, like it or not. Then comes the fun and the momentum will return. If it isn't done like thud, the dog has NOT been forced and if you're playing the retriever gamed it may well come back and bite you.

[CDN_Cocker]

To allude to Mr. Carr whom you have mentioned - "If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr. I agree that the dog must know force. But I think lots of people that aren't as experienced with FF tend to forget to build the dog up as well.

[gonehuntin']

Rex learned that lesson well. His dog's in the 80's were pig's, when they went on marks or blinds it was called "The Escalon Shuffle". They went slow with ears laid back but they went straight, in control, and were very hard to beat. It was only in his later years that he started running fast dog's. Change in opinions caused him to do so. He truly was a great innovator. He even once taught lab's to herd ducks and tried collar breaking 16 week old pups. But he is the father of all modern electric training. He took programs from Morgan, Wolter's (DL) and others and developed the most successful training regimen in the history of training. Nearly every retrieve trainer today follows a Carr program form Lardy on down. That includes Hillman. We owe him a lot. He was a real gentleman as well. As long as you called him Major.

[polmaise]

Rex learned that lesson well. His dog's in the 80's were pig's, when they went on marks or blinds it was called "The Escalon Shuffle". They went slow with ears laid back but they went straight, in control, and were very hard to beat. It was only in his later years that he started running fast dog's. Change in opinions caused him to do so. He truly was a great innovator.

Not diverting from the OP .If I am then apologies . 'Gonehuntin' Can You expand further on what these changes/Opinions were ? Pm if you would rather. I'm genuinely interested. Heard talk of the 'Shuffle' when I visited the US last year with some 'Trainers'.
Thanks Robert

[gonehuntin']

Well, back in the day, Rex thought that if a dog walked or trotted, "The Escalon Shuffle", they were easier to control just because they WERE going slow. It was easier to keep a walking dog on a straight line to a blind because they were going so slow they went off line less, stopped faster, and could hear better. Same on marks. It really started on marks when the judges started setting up all of the "trick marks", the inverted triples, poison birds, double retired guns, etc. The slower a dog went the less chance of him blowing out of the area of the fall. Rex's dog's were hard to beat, in fact "bleep" near impossible. I can remember at one time in California, if you were in the open, you had Raider, Cannon Ball Kate, Ray's Rascal, Wanapun Dart's Dandy, McGuffy, Super Powder, Willie Be Good, Honcho, all running on the same weekend. When you went to a trial you knew you weren't going to get first or second. Placing was darn near impossible.

I think you'd have to credit Jim Gonia with starting to change opinion. When he showed up his dog's were fast and in control. There were a few of us, myself included that ran red hot electric dog's and did well. The next was Mike Lardy. Anyhow i'd say in the 90's opinion really turned and that's when you started seeing the faster dog's that were not quite as precise. I can't tell you for sure what changed it, but I believe that spectators in the gallery hated watching the electric pigs galumph out there to marks.

The other huge influence was the variable intensity collar. In the 70's and 80's we only had the A-70, the thunderbolt and not all dog's could be trained with that collar. With the advent of the variable intensity collars corrections could be made that were not severe at all and you began to see happier, more assured dog's. Today, we can get near the precision of the 70's but with a happy, assured dog. At least that's my opinion of it.

[polmaise]

Well, back in the day, Rex thought that if a dog walked or trotted, "The Escalon Shuffle", they were easier to control just because they WERE going slow. It was easier to keep a walking dog on a straight line to a blind because they were going so slow they went off line less, stopped faster, and could hear better. Same on marks. It really started on marks when the judges started setting up all of the "trick marks", the inverted triples, poison birds, double retired guns, etc. The slower a dog went the less chance of him blowing out of the area of the fall. Rex's dog's were hard to beat, in fact "bleep" near impossible. I can remember at one time in California, if you were in the open, you had Raider, Cannon Ball Kate, Ray's Rascal, Wanapun Dart's Dandy, McGuffy, Super Powder, Willie Be Good, Honcho, all running on the same weekend. When you went to a trial you knew you weren't going to get first or second. Placing was darn near impossible.

I think you'd have to credit Jim Gonia with starting to change opinion. When he showed up his dog's were fast and in control. There were a few of us, myself included that ran red hot electric dog's and did well. The next was Mike Lardy. Anyhow i'd say in the 90's opinion really turned and that's when you started seeing the faster dog's that were not quite as precise. I can't tell you for sure what changed it, but I believe that spectators in the gallery hated watching the electric pigs galumph out there to marks.

The other huge influence was the variable intensity collar. In the 70's and 80's we only had the A-70, the thunderbolt and not all dog's could be trained with that collar. With the advent of the variable intensity collars corrections could be made that were not severe at all and you began to see happier, more assured dog's. Today, we can get near the precision of the 70's but with a happy, assured dog. At least that's my opinion of it.

Thank You Sir.

[crackerd]

Robt., GH neglected to tell you that all the above also occurred in an era when the judges were looking to keep North American retriever trials somewhat true to their British roots - with high scores going to, you know, slower and stolid (a/k/a "British-seeming") retrievers.

No, no, no - but as recently as a couple of years ago, there were pros who dominated their respective circuits (especially on the East Coast) with "Escalon shuffling" blind dogs. Almost enough to make you cry watching them - especially after seeing your own dogs get there with style but maybe one too many whistles or speed that took the dog a little offline before you could get a whistle on them. Just another reminder that while you can't win a field trial with a great blind, you can sure lose it with a blind seen by the judges as not-so-great...

MG

[gonehuntin']

Used to make my laugh, sort of, MG; I'd ask judges why they didn't dock those dog's for lack of style and their response was that I didn't know that those dog's weren't going as fast as they could. Not only did Rex Carr dogs dominate the western circuit back then, but virtually all judges had been schooled by Rex as well. That's why many competitors flew their dog's to the Dakota's and east to compete; to get away from the electric pigs and have a chance of making an FC.

[gundogguy]

Wow i had no Idea the OP, dubberly_Jordan was trying to build a 10th series dog. I'm not even sure is he has a Labrador.

[polmaise]

Wow i had no Idea the OP, dubberly_Jordan was trying to build a 10th series dog. I'm not even sure is he has a Labrador.

Probably Not ? with either,Probably Yes with both..Sorry if I have Hijacked the thread in any way.
Some OP'S .with little history on the board may just want to sit back and enjoy the ride,and some just post a very good question that others have interest in.
Many, on occasion have no interest or input. But that's just open forums for you.
.....
Thanks dubberly_Jordan for the question.

[chrokeva]

I have found this thread pretty interesting.
I started my dogs FTP just as in the Hillman video (back nick back) while in motion and although I did get momentum I also have to say that I agree with gh in that it was not really force as I did not force by "compelling a dog to do a task against his will". For my dog she was truly forced later. I do not believe it took away from her momentum and in fact increased it by quite a bit but that was not till after she understood the lesson.

[gundogguy]

Wow i had no Idea the OP, dubberly_Jordan was trying to build a 10th series dog. I'm not even sure is he has a Labrador.

Probably Not ? with either,Probably Yes with both..Sorry if I have Hijacked the thread in any way.
Some OP'S .with little history on the board may just want to sit back and enjoy the ride,and some just post a very good question that others have interest in.
Many, on occasion have no interest or input. But that's just open forums for you.
.....
Thanks dubberly_Jordan for the question.

so if i understand you correctly, "that's a definite maybe"!

[polmaise]

so if i understand you correctly, "that's a definite maybe"!

Yes

[Trekmoor]

Bill T.