Is there hope?

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berk
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Is there hope?

Post by berk » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:04 pm

Serious question - once a young pointer learns he can catch birds, can they ever be trusted? Or are you better off starting over with a new pup?

Curious to hear stories from people that have taken a dog like this and achieved some measurable level of success with them (FT placements, etc.)

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:46 pm

I doubt if there ever has been a dog that hasn't caught a few birds.
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Re: Is there hope?

Post by RyanDoolittle » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:14 pm

There's a difference between catching a few birds and has learned he can catch birds. I had a dog that was good on wild birds but would not hold on chukar. He went rogue in a throw down derby stake, caught too many chukar and that was all she wrote.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by mm » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:33 am

Is the dog collar wise. I have one that I did to much derby with and she learned that the collar was off and she could do what she wanted. After that she was hit or miss at trials I got a few placements but got picked up a lot and I stopped running her in trials. However I still hunt her with the collar on and she is a great hunting dog steady to wing and shot. I never ran any dogs in derby again.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:09 am

Catching birds is not that big of a deal.
Try running her on birds she can't catch. Run her with a checkcord and Forget the collar for awhile. Wild birds and throw some pigeons, then pigeons in a launcher. let her chase until she gets tired. Some take a lot of birds. Don't talk and don't worry about how far she chases she will come back. You do need a large area and good flying birds.
Then have a helper shoot a bird or two, while you stop her with the checkcord. Generally they get the idea pretty quickly.
Use a stiff checkcord and be aware of the danger of a dog running on a checkcord...........Cj

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by SCT » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:20 am

Wild birds will cure any problems of that nature.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:36 am

Yes there is hope, It may be along process.

If the dog has caught birds repeatedly you will likely have a harder time than if it has caught just a couple of weak flyers or wet birds.

I would suggest that you re- train the dog to absolutely grow roots when it scents a bird. That is the first step. The dog must not be allowed to creep, relocate...move a toenail. It must resemble a piece of marble statuary. NO movement whatsoever.

Next, I would not allow the dog to retrieve until it is COMPLETELY rock solid on its points, including when you toss pigeons in its face. When the dog is stone cold broke...I would kill a bird, then go out and pick it up myself with the dog standing there. Then I would give the bird to the dog with the command "fetch" and immediately command "give" or out and take the bird and put it away. You want the dog to clearly understand that the ONLY time it gets to wrap its gums around a bird is when he does it YOUR way. Only let the dog retrieve SOME of the birds you kill. It needs to understand that they are YOUR birds and that occasionally, you allow him to retrieve YOUR birds.

Take your time, be consistent, but also be insistent. Be fair, be firm BUT do not settle for less than perfection on its points.

I have a gyp that learned she could go out and bust birds, at trials. She would disappear to the front and be gone for several minutes. Often we would find her on point. On a couple of occasions we saw birds in the air and the situation became clear. I took her off the circuit because I cannot tolerate a dog that is not honest on its game.
Her manners were and are perfect when she has the collar on.

It has taken me the best part of two years, but I am getting a handle on it( I think). We shall see later this year.

Some of this stuff takes time and a lot of patience to work through.

RayG

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by slistoe » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:54 am

RyanDoolittle wrote:There's a difference between catching a few birds and has learned he can catch birds. I had a dog that was good on wild birds but would not hold on chukar. He went rogue in a throw down derby stake, caught too many chukar and that was all she wrote.
I had one dog that brought back 6 chukar in a half hour derby stake. That was her worst performance, but had grabbed a few at other times as well. I sent her to a pro for the summer as I wasn't confident I had the resources to work her through it. She won a few as an adult (16 points when I quit trialing her) and was as honest as you could ever want when out hunting.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by shags » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:31 am

If you discard every pup that figures out he can catch birds, you're going to go through a lot of pups.
I've never had a dog that didn't catch birds at some point. In training with pen raised birds, it's going to happen - unless you have a very low-drive dog. Your job is to teach the dog that although he *can* catch, he shouldn't. That comes with the breaking process, and varies dog to dog.
Every single one of my dogs figured out that they can catch pen raised birds. Every single one of them got over it. We have a total of 10 FC/AFC titles, and numerous AF placements. Some of the dogs took a little more work than others to break, but whatever...it happened anyway.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:08 am

Personally, I would get a handle on the chase before I wasted my time on rock solid, do not move anything whoa. First, if this is a hunting dog a step or two is not an issue and if this is a competition dog whoa can be trained later with much less chance of taking the style out of the dog. Second, some dogs can't handle that much pressure and taking a year or two to train for something that is basically of no value to a hunting dog is wasting a lot of your time.
Some people do not have skill set to train a rock solid whoa, without pressuring the dog to much.
Good flying birds will cure this and usually quite quickly. Preferably wild birds, but it is getting harder to find a good supply of them so we need to go to pigeons.
We have bred for steadiness for so long that a lot of our pups are naturally steady to wing,shot and fall. This can make gun intro a little tough. We encourage some of these dogs to chase and catch. In fact all of our puppies start by catching a few birds.
As SCT says wild birds will cure the problem.
It is not a big deal unless you make it one.........Cj

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Post by DonF » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:25 pm

I've had a number of dog's that have never caught a bird on the ground. I've had a lot that did also. Where it usually happen's that a bird is caught is when you first let the dog work birds without you contriving the heck cord. Way past that is using remote controlled traps. But just that they are there won't do. You have to keep in mind exactly where the traps are and never ever let your dog get closer than about 10 feet without popping the bird. Doesn't matter if the dog is not in the scent core, pop the bird. If the dog is pointing and make's any kind of movement at all, do not give it a chance to see if you really can stop it. Keep in mind the thing's a wild bird will do to your dog! Don't be so ready to teach your dog what you want, teach it how to get what it want's. You are merely a spectator and gunner, nothing more! When remote's came on the scene, everything really did change except a lot of trainer's attitude's. They still want the dog to understand what they want, rather than how to get what the dog want's. Over the years I've had several people come by with problem dogs that they claim will not point a bird, to much prey drive most tell me. I cannot remember one I didn't get to point and if I remember every time on under 10 birds. I have said it before a lot, be the bird, don't be a trainer. Teach the dog how to get what it want's, not necessarily what you want. If we were so smart, we wouldn't need the dog, we'd work the birds ourselves. Think about this, there have been dog's that actually have caught wild birds, my Drifter did once years ago, one time, that was it! Never had another dog do it. What does that tell you? Be the bird. As for the dog catching a training bird, that's is your fault and unless you allow that to happen over and over, it's not a big problem. I think it was K9 said some time back; what you allow, you teach. Key work allow! How do you think they taught labs to point or springer's to blink?
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Re: Is there hope?

Post by berk » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:26 pm

Thanks for the responses, good to hear. I have an 8 month old GSP, my first pointer, and I admit I'm a bit shellshocked. I've owned retrievers, and trained for/run in AKC hunt tests, so I'm not a complete novice around training, but am an absolute rookie with pointers. The pup caught 4 or 5 quail during a training session way back in October, and then thought he didn't really need to point anymore. I bought some Dogtra launchers after reading some posts on here, got a hold of some pigeons, and have started the process of teaching my pointer how to point :) Ironically, I have a 7 year old lab that holds point better than the GSP, but hopefully we'll get there some day.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:53 am

cjhills wrote:Personally, I would get a handle on the chase before I wasted my time on rock solid, do not move anything whoa. First, if this is a hunting dog a step or two is not an issue and if this is a competition dog whoa can be trained later with much less chance of taking the style out of the dog. Second, some dogs can't handle that much pressure and taking a year or two to train for something that is basically of no value to a hunting dog is wasting a lot of your time.
Some people do not have skill set to train a rock solid whoa, without pressuring the dog to much.
Good flying birds will cure this and usually quite quickly. Preferably wild birds, but it is getting harder to find a good supply of them so we need to go to pigeons.
We have bred for steadiness for so long that a lot of our pups are naturally steady to wing,shot and fall. This can make gun intro a little tough. We encourage some of these dogs to chase and catch. In fact all of our puppies start by catching a few birds.
As SCT says wild birds will cure the problem.
It is not a big deal unless you make it one.........Cj

Just a couple of points.

One of the best ways(in my opinion) to get a handle on chase, is to train for a rock solid whoa. If the sight, sound smell of a bird causes the dog to stop and grow roots...the chase disappears.

It is far, far easier(again in my opinion) and far less stressful to the dog, to have them trained to be steady to wing and shot right from the get go. That training can be allowed to slip, in the field, if the owner desires with absolutely no impact on the dog, but once established, can be maintained in the competition dog with very gentle pressure. Conversely, if a dog is allowed to "take a step or two" , or to chase as a starting point, that can require considerable pressure to correct and may very well leave handprints on the dog's style. Been there...did that. Won't do it again.

It is actually incredibly easy to teach a dog a rock solid whoa, if you start in the yard with heel/whoa drills, do barrel or bench work, styling the dog up and standing there on that perch with pigeons flying and then walking about. It is incredibly easy to introduce in the field with remote release traps, both as "stop to flush " drills , to encourage the dog to stop at the sight of a bird and scent based training situations. You do not need wild birds...just barn pigeons.

I have had a couple dogs point their very first bird(a pigeon in a remote release trap)... then allow me to walk in front , and flush and shoot...all without moving a toenail. Several others required two or three corrections before they were dead steady. One, I recall, had to go back to the yard for several weeks, and then go through some "stop to flush "drills before it got steady.

After that, it is just a matter of repetitions to ingrain the behavior.

However, each and every dog I started out this way retained sufficient style on their birds to garner multiple AF placements. Several of the dogs I trained this way were trained at my home in the 'burbs of NJ... on a 100X125 ft. property while I was holding down a full time job and raising a family.

The major advantage that the individual dog owner has over ANY pro, is the fact that they have only ONE dog to work and train. That makes doing things in the yard very easy for the one dog owner. Why not use that advantage to its fullest?

One does not have to be a top tier trainer. I certainly am not. Just patience, persistence, gentle insistence and a clearidea of what it isyou are trying to accomplish at each step along the way. Anyone with a modicum of time and patience can learn how to do it. If I can learn to do it...anyone can. It does not take a rocket scientist.

You just have to want to do it and have a pup with enough natural talent to take the training. Most Pointers, Shorthairs, English or red setters and Brittanys from field lines have more than enough natural talent to get it done. They come out of the birth canal with it.

Lastly...wild birds are an absolute treasure and do indeed make some things soooo much easier. But if you live east of the Mississippi, wild birds for training can be difficult if not impossible to come by for the average person.

RayG

PS - I forgot to mention that, on average, I am working with a pointer pup on steadiness in the yard from the time it is 16 wks. old until it is about 10-12 months old. By then they are usually ready for field work on birds. It is not uncommon for me to have a dog green broke at 10-11 months and pretty much dead broke by the time it is 14-16 months old.

It should be noted that the type of pup I typically work with is one which was bred to win horseback shooting dog and all age trials...which often can be whole lot more dog than most folks need or want. A dog with the kind of boldness, independence and drive I look for and try to preserve and maintain, can indeed be a challenge to mold into a willing hunting partner.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by cjhills » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:54 pm

I have a question and a couple of comments.
In several of your posts you say, "when I tell a dog whoa it better not move a toenail"
This to me sounds very threatening.
My question is what are these dire consequences if he moves? Two questions:
Do you really think a beginner can do that without intimidating the dog?
Comments:1. This is not attacking anyone. How you or Sharon train your dogs is totally up to you. If you are happy and it works fine. I do not think it is what beginners are capable of doing.
I live quite close to where some of the top trainers in the country have their summer camps. I spend a fair amount of time with them. Everyone that I know brings pups who do not even know their name. The first thing they do is turn the dogs loose on the prairie and let them run. They find birds, they point birds and the chase birds. Occasionally they catch birds. They shoot birds over them and some retrieve. Some disappear and are never seen again. Most don't. They quit chasing and come in when they get too tired to do anything else. They shoot birds over these dogs. These puppies have no training except what the birds teach. They do eventually go to some sort of whoa training but by then the dogs are two years old or more and handling birds quite well. Many never have a recall. The birds teach the dogs.
These are top of line trainers. These dogs will be run off horseback and many will be All Age. Many will be champion............Cj

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:42 pm

cjhills wrote:I have a question and a couple of comments.
In several of your posts you say, "when I tell a dog whoa it better not move a toenail"
This to me sounds very threatening.
My question is what are these dire consequences if he moves? Two questions:
Do you really think a beginner can do that without intimidating the dog?
Comments:1. This is not attacking anyone. How you or Sharon train your dogs is totally up to you. If you are happy and it works fine. I do not think it is what beginners are capable of doing.
I live quite close to where some of the top trainers in the country have their summer camps. I spend a fair amount of time with them. Everyone that I know brings pups who do not even know their name. The first thing they do is turn the dogs loose on the prairie and let them run. They find birds, they point birds and the chase birds. Occasionally they catch birds. They shoot birds over them and some retrieve. Some disappear and are never seen again. Most don't. They quit chasing and come in when they get too tired to do anything else. They shoot birds over these dogs. These puppies have no training except what the birds teach. They do eventually go to some sort of whoa training but by then the dogs are two years old or more and handling birds quite well. Many never have a recall. The birds teach the dogs.
These are top of line trainers. These dogs will be run off horseback and many will be All Age. Many will be champion............Cj
Cj -

The "dire" consequences are typically getting set back, styled up and being made to stand there for an extended period. Occasionally a nick of the e-collar and, if a youngster, a pop on the checkcord, but always... being set up and made to stand there. On of the most memorable corrections you can do on a diehard bird dog is to keep them from hunting. Long before I got involved in trials I was a hunter, who absolutely HATED to lose game. I insisted that my dogs find downed game and would spend a half hour looking for a down quail. My dogs, like most bird dogs, would MUCH rather go running off to find another bird to point, but I made them put their noses down and hunt dead until they came up with that bird. A funny thing happened....

The dog that only wanted to go and run and find birds changed gears and did a fair imitation of a Hoover and AMAZINGLY...began finding those dead birds faster and faster and faster, because that was the ONLY way he was going to get released to run.

I learned that you can get a bird dog to do darn near anything, if the reward is the ability to wrap its gums around a bird. Keeping a dog from doing that is about as "dire" a consequence as there is.

As far as summer camps for bird dogs... they are generally looking for that one special dog that can run open horseback all age. That is a different game. I too live fairly close to where some of the top trainers in the country live, but they are shooting dog trainers, not all age folks. They do it different.

What you describe is NOT what I have seen. In fact, much of what I have seen from those top trainers is pretty much the opposite of what you describe. They want their puppies and derbies CLOSE and under control, so they can bond with them, pattern them and mold them. The run comes later for these folks, but they have to handle on the smaller, tighter courses that we have hereabouts.

The way it was explained to me, as I have stated before, was to install the brakes and steering before you take the car onto the racetrack and drop the hammer.

Also, I have to say that one of the most successful all age handlers in recent years, actually started out under the guidance of those same shooting dog folks I referred to. He was a very successful shooting dog trainer and handler in my area, before he made the switch to all age. I think he is leading the Purina points again this year. Apparently he is doing something right. I will tell you this...his dogs go with him and hunt for him. I have seen it. Just something to consider.

RayG

PS - YES I do absolutely believe that, with remote releasers, variable intensity e-collars and the training techniques we have available today on DVD and in seminars, that the beginner CAN get a dog dead broke to wing and shot without using undue force. The dogs we have today are SO much more biddable and trainable than they were forty years ago that it is almost like they are different breeds. Even the field trial bred ones come out of the womb WANTING to please.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by slistoe » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:35 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
What you describe is NOT what I have seen. In fact, much of what I have seen from those top trainers is pretty much the opposite of what you describe. They want their puppies and derbies CLOSE and under control, so they can bond with them, pattern them and mold them. The run comes later for these folks, but they have to handle on the smaller, tighter courses that we have hereabouts.
It was quite a revelation to me when I rode a bunch of braces and watched Ferrell Miller handle his derby dogs in competition. You would think he was developing shooting dogs.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by SCT » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:12 am

Slistoe, I've ridden with Ferrel's young protege Ike, working derbies and it's like you and Ray have stated, they don't get free rein. They are trained to stay to the front and within contact of less than 400 yards. However, I've also ridden with Tommy Davis at his and Luke's summer camp and mostly ran slightly older dogs and they let them rip, as long as they stayed to the front. If a dog got out of pocket Tommy would rein him in and work him much harder (1/2 hour to an hour longer) to keep himself in the dogs head. Had some great experiences while there with them and learned a lot.

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:53 am

SCT wrote:Slistoe, I've ridden with Ferrel's young protege Ike, working derbies and it's like you and Ray have stated, they don't get free rein. They are trained to stay to the front and within contact of less than 400 yards. However, I've also ridden with Tommy Davis at his and Luke's summer camp and mostly ran slightly older dogs and they let them rip, as long as they stayed to the front. If a dog got out of pocket Tommy would rein him in and work him much harder (1/2 hour to an hour longer) to keep himself in the dogs head. Had some great experiences while there with them and learned a lot.
When Mike Tracy runs a derby in training, that dog is dead in front and darn near underfoot. It don't go nowhere that Mike does not want it to go. It learns to watch the horse and go where the horse's nose is pointed. He learned how to start dogs from his dad, George, and his grandpa, "Pap", (Gerald) Tracy, who incidentally was also a mentor for Luke. George's daughter Jeannette, like Luke, tends to let her youngsters have a little more freedom to roam, but they DO get the job done.

Their dogs win...and win often, no matter where they are put down. They are incredibly tough competition. I know...I get to compete against many of those same dogs when they are being handled by their amateur owners.

RayG

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Re: Is there hope?

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:39 pm

I have a fraction of the experience most here have, but I have a relevant story. My young Pointer was sweeping the test field, pointing planted quail perfectly and staying steady. Then she tucked into a thin tree line for a minute and came back out with a Ruffed grouse in her mouth (it must've been nesting and/or molting). I took it with little adeu and moved on.

That fall she pointed grouse like anything else. I think it depends on the dog.
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Re: Is there hope?

Post by berk » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:57 pm

No improvement to report, have watched hundreds of dollars worth of pigeons, chukar, and pheasants fly away as he breaks point and charges in. Think I'm about done with " let the bird teach him".

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