Advice Needed

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Carl
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Advice Needed

Post by Carl » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:06 pm

I have an 11 month old Griff and having some issues with her pointing birds. 5 months ago she was pointing strong and holding her points pretty well. I would flush the bird and she would chase the bird off and then we would hunt the bird in the woods. I introduced the e collar a month or two back and worked on her hold and she would still try to chase the bird but then would hold after I gave her the command and used the collar. Now all of a sudden she has changed the way she hunts birds. She will point very briefly when she first smells the bird but then she starts circling the bird on all sides. She knows where the bird is because she is careful to keep her distance. She will lie down especially if I don't show interest in coming over to her. Once I start walking towards the bird she will ease in with me and then point strong once she is a few feet away. I then flush the bird only once she shows a strong point. She still chases but does stop when I give her the command. Any clues as to what is going on? She never exhibited this behavior before. It just showed up out of no where few weeks back. I took her out the other day and she pointed and held her point better and didn't circle the birds as much today she went back circling the birds. I did buy a bird launcher to use in her training in order to try and get her to hold point but it is hard to train her when hunting multiple birds in the field. Any guess as to what is going on? Is it something I possibly did? How should I proceed to retrain her from here?

setterpoint
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Re: Advice Needed

Post by setterpoint » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:42 pm

dont let the dog circl the bird once the dog points if any movement make the bird fly if you see the dog wind the bird and dont point hit the launcher i would use a check cord and not let dog chase ...and go easy with the ecollar around birds .. go back when the dog was doing things right and let dog learn that is what you want

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Sharon
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Re: Advice Needed

Post by Sharon » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:16 pm

Well. The dog is confused as to what it is exactly suppose to be doing.

Lying down is a good indication of confusion.

" I introduced the e collar a month or two back and worked on her hold and she would still try to chase the bird but then would hold after I gave her the command and used the collar." quote

Not a good use for the e collar imo. I would go back and work on the "whoa" command in the back yard with pigeons , in the house, and with the launcher - any movement once you know the dog has scented that bird( not necessarily pointed) , and you launch the bird. Use the check cord , not the e collar.
She's circling to avoid the e collar correction - smart dog. :)

With wild birds I see no problem with letting a dog that young point and chase when the bird flushes. You saying /doing nothing. It is still teaching the same lesson you are teaching - "You move , the bird is gone." Others would not do it that way.

Forget that e collar for now except for conditioning the dog to come when called for its own safety. This is also taught in the backyard initially and transferred to the field.

It's a challenge. Enjoy. :) Welcome to the forum.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

Trekmoor
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Re: Advice Needed

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:38 am

I agree with the previous posts regarding the e-collar being the possible cause of this problem. We have a saying in Britain where pointing dogs are concerned ....."Never correct a dog in the presence of game." It sounds to me as if you may have done that ?

Pointing birds should be pure pleasure to a dog . The dog should not be anticipating a possible correction/punishment.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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bonasa
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Re: Advice Needed

Post by bonasa » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:01 am

Sounds like what the other posters said and that's confusion. The circling and leaving point certainly sounds like blinking is beginning. The dog is leaving the scent cone for fear of what comes next.

Id go back to killing birds and not turning the collar on, just let the dog wear it. No rush, take it slow, the dog isnt ready for being broke. In a few months work on collar conditioning, then proceed with your training. Personally, id get that dog stopping to flush (without scent) once the collar conditioning is complete, then proceed. Once the chase is taken away, everything is so much easier.

Good luck, take your time

Carl
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Re: Advice Needed

Post by Carl » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:22 am

Thanks for the advice. I will try those suggestions and see how she progresses.

Timewise65
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Re: Advice Needed

Post by Timewise65 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:23 am

I work strictly with retrievers, so my comments come from that experience. It is common place for dog handlers to start using an e collar without proper "conditioning" the dog to the collar. This is a process that trains the dog that when they feel pressure they must comply with the "trained command" of course is only works when the dog knows the command 100%.

A couple of key things going on here. First you should never apply collar pressure to a dog unless you are 100% sure the dog understands and knows how to perform the command that you have given them, then and only then can they associate that this pressure happens, when they are disobedient to a known command. Second, the level of pressure you use should never cause the dog to 'jerk' or vocalize...when the pressure is set properly the dog will usually only look around when you apply pressure. The dog should be 100% trained on basic obedience commands which provides a foundation for advanced training and demonstrates the dogs maturity for training. Finally, I would never use an e collar on a dog that is not at least six months old, preferably 12 months, depending on how mature it is.

Using to much pressure or using it when they are to young will mess up a dog faster than you can imagine! If they start associating pain when out working on birds, you can turn them off to hunting or working on birds, forever! I have also seen water dogs that will not go in the water due to bad training with the e collar.....so be careful.

With retrievers, most everyone goes through a comprehensive Force Fetching routine that ends with Forcing with the e collar. For my time and money, this is what I believe is the best training you can give any gun dog, that you plan to use an e collar on. When done properly the dog associates collar pressure with being disobedient! And that is the POINT!

Good Luck

Carl
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Re: Advice Needed

Post by Carl » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:50 pm

Ok. Been out several times. She is still blinking. Have not used collar at all or any commands. Just letting her have fun and hunt. The question is it takes time for her to get her confidence up to go in closer to the bird and point. She will stop for a spit second and then she goes in circles until she builds her confidence to mover in closer to point the bird. She seems to go in faster if I walk in with her. Should I keep doing this or will she develop another habit that I don't won't. Should I just let her go in at her own speed to the bird and point or should I launch the bird before she gets too close and should I be doing any pointing drills in the yard to help get her back on track. Thought I might work with her in the yard with a bird she can see and get her pointing their while using a pole to keep her on point then move to the field later. Am I on the right track?

Carl
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Re: Advice Needed

Post by Carl » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:01 pm

Update. Think we finally figured out what is going on. We noticed she would point a bird that had been put out for several days so the next time we put birds out I used gloves to cover my scent. She pointed. I think my scent on the bird was causing her to blink. Don't know why but it's working. Gonna put several more birds out over the next few weeks to see how she progresses. Right now it seems we are back on the right track. Thanks for the advice. I've learned a lot.

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