solid in training, blows up in trials

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jtg
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solid in training, blows up in trials

Post by jtg » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:35 pm

33-mo-old brittany finally holding well through wing, shot and release (either to hunt on or retrieve a trown bumper) on training fields - performance virtually 100% for last 4 months (3-5 days/week) - but now half-way through his first broke-dog, field trial season, in every gun dog stake, he blows up, before pointing a single bird, just busting and chasing - stop to flush in training is also solid, but not on the trialing field - he gets pretty jazzed at trials - more so at mounted trials, where I hoof it alongside mounted handlers, scouts, judges and gallery - an audience to impress with his big, showy, wide, long-striding run - almost seems he thinks that's why we're there, to show off his run rather than display style and manners with birds ?!?!

I know most pros would probably have washed him out by now, but he's my only dog and though it may not sound like it, we are still having fun - I love watching him run more than anyone, but have no idea what to do beyond more training and trialing, until he starts settling down at trials - would train amidst horses if I could afford one or were connected to the right folks, but alas, not - any ideas ?

also, we (just the 2 of us, no buddies) hunted liberated pheasants a couple months last fall, mainly for training - I passed up 10 shots to every one I took, as he rarely delivered FT-standard bird work - I only shot properly handled birds and solid stop-to-flushes - and amazingly, after every shot bird, he held till released to retrieve (not always properly - still training fetch), yet held till release on every one - we'll do it again in Oct. - read somewhere: "on the hunting field, if dog knocks the bird, turn your back on him." - is this recommended ?

no longer use collar correction on the training field (rarely used it anyway and never when on scent) - on the hunting field, only use collar stimulation to shut down a chase, never to stop routing or creeping on scent, command: "easy" to ease routing, "whoa" to stop creeping

grateful for any ideas about what to do or not to do with this crazy dog ?

please don't recommend: "send him to a pro" - have heard it and weighed it - we do occasional one-off pro sessions, mainly to train me to train him - money and time well-spent - but, won't put him in a "program" - otherwise, ideas ? thanks

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Featherfinder
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Re: solid in training, blows up in trials

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:26 am

jtd, putting him with a pro would be the easiest route to go but there is a cost, of course. Good pros will look at your dog and determine which way to go - constantly reassessing and fine-tuning the "program". Not-so-good pros take a dog and - to use an analogy - they ( or often their staff) will drive that square peg into a round hole. The only determination is , "How big a hammer do I need?" If you prefer not to go the pro route, I get it. Just so you know, there are pros and there are pros.
You need to look within yourself for the fix. All-too-often, folk will reach an impasse and think, "Why does my dog do that?" It's a good question but they are single-dimensional in their resolve. In-other-words, they look strictly at the dog.
Just from what you offered, I can surmise that you are short-circuiting processes. "Easy" (creeping) and "Whoa" (not steady on point) have little-to-no place in a well trained bird dog's repertoire. It's really quite simple. Either your dog gets it right or he gets it wrong. Why speak at all? Where does speaking come into finding and holding birds? It doesn't IF you have done your due diligence. Yes, you are a team and yes you want to support your dog in a situation of ambiguity. That does not mean you need to talk your dog through his finds - any of them.
You might have thought you didn't need to pursue the training to the point of proofing your dog' performance. For simplicity, if a process has roughly 10 steps, along the way, you must consistently convey your expectation. If you go from step 1 to 3, then 3 to 6, and finally 6 to 10, not only have you not proofed along the way, you have also not conveyed the expectation CLEARLY for a number of transitions/variables.
Dogs develop aptitude through association not discipline. This means that although you had the best of intentions, you have inadvertently taught your dog that there is a distinct difference between your training strategies as per hunting versus field trials.
You have also fallen prey to YGSMDR syndrome ("You gotta see my dog RUN!") - a common one among predominantly short-tailed pointing dog trialers. There are trialers that would trade run for a competent bird dog! This is NOT the expectation of the sport but rather their perception of it. I'm not undermining the application of a successful trial dog. ......no application - no wins, for sure. But too many people invest strictly in run rather than ALL of core attributes of a competent bird dog - trialer or not. Remember, dogs learn through association, which includes how she/he applies herself/himself while grouse hunting in Maine, Huns hunting in Montana as well as when trialing. They can do it all, if you are prepared to invest. I qualify this by adding that I have successfully competed with my champion Brittany female in pointer/setter horseback trials. She was also an amazing (foot handled) grouse dog so, "I've been there - done that" (with 3 of my past dogs).
While the dog you described seems to have the attributes to be a trialer as well as a hunter, you must be consistent in your training, whether trialing or hunting.....no variances. The rules are the rules.
You shot pheasants which your dog "mostly" retrieved. Why? If you aspire to have a dog that retrieves, then start and COMPLETE that process, unless you want a dog that mostly retrieves, sometimes, sort-of, almost.
My suggestion is go back.......WAY back in your training to see what you might have done wrong or just better. Provide the dog with a clear consistent expectation and be prepared to invest BEFORE spending the anticipated dividends. You've got some serious work to do there but it sounds like you have a wonderful prospect.

shags
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Re: solid in training, blows up in trials

Post by shags » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:31 am

Welcome to the world of having a big running green dog. Such are the tribulations of a dog's first season or two of being a green trial dog. It's normal.

Dogs need to learn that the rules apply everywhere, not just at home or in the training area. That makes for lots of crashes.

Your challenge is to find a way to correct your dog in these situations. So, you might be able to set up training time on your ft grounds with friends, making a simulated trial. When we ran at Killdeer Plains, Mondays after weekend trials found several guys running dogs on surviving birds. It worked great, with the rigs in the parking lot and folks taking turns going out in braces and training as needed.

Even though the rules forbid training at trials, most everybody looks the other way if a handler makes a correction that doesn't include whacking the dog with a lead or other physical punishment. After a crash on course, you might be able to gather up the dog, set him back at the scene of the crime, and make him stand there before you begin the walk back to camp with your Dope on a Rope. Find the key to your dog's shame and use it. I had one that never responded to any kind of correction and after one of many many crashes I made up my mind to quit him after his last brace the next day. So instead of correcting, I silently leashed him and back to the truck we went. I learned that The Silent Treatment was his key, because the following day he had 5 clean finds, three backs, and a great run and won his stake.

I think maybe you put yourself at a disadvantage by walking as your bracemate rides, because you aren't able to see your dog and watch out for impending trouble. If your could see your dog better you might be able to handle him into or out of situations before he gets into trouble. Is there any way you could horseback handle for a few braces?

Since you also hunt your dog it would be helpful if you treat hunts like ft stakes and make him adhere to ft standards until he gets sorted out. Eventually he'll figure out the difference, but for now he needs to know that there is one set of rules all the time.

The trainer I'm working with now doesn't allow any missteps whatsoever with green dogs. He picks them up when he sees something he doesn't like even though the offenses don't warrant being tossed out by the judges. Super high standards mean lots of pick ups and frustrations, but once it kicks in, his dogs don't mess up very often.

Be patient and consistent, what you are experiencing is nothing out of the ordinary. Good luck to you.

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Re: solid in training, blows up in trials

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:06 am

[quote="shags"]

Dogs need to learn that the rules apply everywhere, not just at home or in the training area. That makes for lots of crash

Since you also hunt your dog it would be helpful if you treat hunts like ft stakes and make him adhere to ft standards until he gets sorted out. Eventually he'll figure out the difference, but for now he needs to know that there is one set of rules all the time.
quote]

The above made sense to me ....probably because it is more or less what I try to do. For me it boils down to the dogs expectation of what usually comes next .... I've ran Brittanies and GSP's in trials and have won a few, my dogs expect not to be allowed to flush birds unless commanded to and even not to expect to be given all of the birds I've shot following their points to retrieve.

In Britain the trial rules are a bit different to yours. We insist on the dog flushing on command following a point ....if the dog keeps moving after that flush it is eliminated. When a bird is shot the dog must remain on the spot it flushed from until commanded to retrieve or be eliminated. Most trailers here have little problem training their dogs to stop to flush but many of them get eliminated from trial after trial because their dogs expect to quickly be commanded to retrieve. The dogs anticipate that command and run in.

No dog of mine of any breed has ever ran in at a trial and the reason for that is simple.In training I make a habit of having a smoke for a few moments as soon as a bird falls. My dogs expect to have to hold their position for two or three minutes before I give the retrieve command. In addition to that I also walk out to some of the fallen birds and pick them up myself while leaving the dog in it's stop position ..... I "claim" fallen birds as "mine." To my dogs it comes as a pleasant surprise to be commanded to retrieve.

I realise that this is probably not a lot of help to you but I hope it reminds you that what a dog expects to do next is probably what it will do if it gets half a chance ! Train as you intend to trial.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

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brittfans
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Re: solid in training, blows up in trials

Post by brittfans » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:37 pm

your going to have to set it up like a trial . at least with a horse and other dog .that way you can get your correction in. They know you cant correct them at a trial so you have to set up a mock trial.

shags
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Re: solid in training, blows up in trials

Post by shags » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:02 pm

Another thing, you might find that you have to train or correct on each course or grounds you run. IME after they do alright on a couple grounds, they're good to go on others without the rigamarole.

It's a process :mrgreen:

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deseeker
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Re: solid in training, blows up in trials

Post by deseeker » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:16 pm

brittfans wrote:your going to have to set it up like a trial . at least with a horse and other dog .that way you can get your correction in. They know you cant correct them at a trial so you have to set up a mock trial.
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