Planting pigeons for flushing dog

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Vernal Pike
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Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by Vernal Pike » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:52 pm

What is the best way to plant a pigeon for a flushing dog where the bird will stay put for the dog to find it without flying off too soon, and not be dizzied so much that the dog catches it?


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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by Sharon » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:22 pm

and that is the challenge. Only experience teaches the skill. When you do dizzy the bird , put the head under the wing.
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by DonF » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:32 pm

Need to dizzy them pretty good and tuck the head under a wing then lay them on that wing. Bit of cover on top helps. Your dog will probably catch some, no big deal. That will just make it flush harder. Don't wan the dog to learn to blink birds. Most important thing to do for you is to keep the dog in gun range.
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by Meskousing » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:34 pm

I've seen a few different successful versions. Some trainers dizzy the bird head up, others swear that the had must be down. Some folks sleep the bird by putting its head under the wing. I've gone to the dizzying the bird head up, but paying close attention to the "nest." If the bird is on a mowed lawn, it will fly away no matter how dizzied up it is. Conversely, if the bird isn't dizzied, but stuffed under some grass the bird won't fly. Therefore, I find that it is important to dizzy the bird and find or make a nest that the bird is comfortable and feels safe in, but won't fly away. Also, the nest must allow the bird to get up without getting caught. Also, if the dog catches the occasional bird that will make the dog a stronger flush, as it will believe it can catch the bird if it's fast enough.

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by bustingcover » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:47 pm

Tether the bird and plant it in cover. The cover should keep it from wanting to take off the tether should keep it from going too far where you can't recover if it does fly off
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by tekoa » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:59 pm

I was never very successful at using dizzied birds for flushing or pointing dogs, probably cause I'm a klutz. I finally gave up and began using Higgins Releasers so I could control the availability of the bird and ensure that he was still in the vicinity when I released the dog. Worked great for me.......

There are many who disagree with using releasers. If you are interested, search for "Higgins Releaser" on this forum for a long discussion of the pros and cons.................

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Post by welsh » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:07 pm

I never tucked heads under wings. Dizzy the bird up until he looks drunk & toss him in cover. No formula but practice ... with practice you can tell when the bird is ready to put down.

No big deal if the dog catches them, as DonF said.

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by gundogguy » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:01 am

Improper planting is a huge waste of time and money for any one trying to develop a flushing dog properly. And time is of the essence.
Release devises are prolly Ok for Retrievers in the upland. As there are hardly any standards concerning the boldness of flush for retrievers.
However release devises are absolute No-No for proper Spaniel training


Never tuck the head under the wing when planting for flushing dogs. Your exercise will be turned into a pick-up and delivery exercise.
After planting more than 100,000 pigeons in my 30 yr career, Like the Professor in "My Fair Lady" sings " I he got it I think he's got! i finally think i got it"!

Maybe this help though I trained hundreds of dogs and owners only a handful of them ever learn how to properly plant for their dogs.


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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:19 am

Instead of pigeons use rabbits - it's a lot more exciting ! :lol:

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by cjhills » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:34 am

How do you plant a rabbit? .........................Cj

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Post by welsh » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:39 am

Plant rabbit seeds and water daily.

Good vid, gundogguy.

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by cjhills » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:06 am

how many days to maturity, will they make it in zone 2...............Cj

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by polmaise » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:14 pm

Depends what you are trying to achieve in the training ?...
I don't like the idea of planted birds for novice handlers of flushing dogs , for the simple reason the handler knows where the planted bird is !
Pigeons and the ease of using them make good videos for the audience intended.
I want the dog to know where the bird is and the handler to read' the dog while it is being worked -to flush.
This is a training session with an 11 month old springer that has had basic training here and a novice handler first time on game and shot.
So I ''planted'' some partridge a few hours earlier in thick cover way before the point of where the birds were actually flushed/shot.
They had plenty time to settle in this new cover and keep tight as they don't know where they are :wink:
I am working and conducting on the far left with a retriever and cocker and shooting , so forgive my language at the very end because I expect the handler and this little dog to at least complete the process of the effort made in the training :D .
The camera man a friend is a Retriever guy ,so he should have marked the bird shot at the very least . lol ..
Have fun and do the basics of hunt/stop to shot/ whistle/flush and don't take the drive out the dog .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtgQDUnbYU4

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by gundogguy » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:02 pm

Very Nice Robert, Live bird training is a step in the progression of Handler and dogs development. If the OP is a Novice then planted flyers are just the ticket, dog and handler can grow together until they have the confidence to take on live game. many issues are critical and timing when the dog and bird come together you would not want the novice to be surprised and miss an opportunity to interact with the dog. One of the issues in my practice was, dogs came to me that had been asked to do more than they were ready for. Eventually once rehabilitation had taken place,planted pigeons are a very logical step in the process..
Considering this thread is about planting pigeons for a flushing dog I'll off another vid. Patience please, from the time the bird is planted until you me dog and I enter the action.
I think in this vid I plant two birds dog got two flushes however both birds flew through a no shoot zone in the training field

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYfESoT3z6w
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by Sharon » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:04 pm

Now that was as clear as it gets. Thank you. :)
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:05 am

I enjoyed the video Robert. Why did the handler tell his dog, "There ! There !" near the clump of spike grass as it hunted a short while into the film ?
A failure to mark fallen birds is very common among beginner handlers. The handlers are so intent on making sure the dog sits and stays sitting that they do not look at the falling bird. I used to see a lot of that when judging HPR trials. As a nice friendly , helpful sort of judge I was infamous for telling a couple of non-marking handlers who ,when told to send their dogs to retrieve, asked where the bird had fallen because they hadn't been looking....... " Well you'd better hope your dog was looking ! Now send the dog !" :lol:

The spaniel in the film enjoyed herself. She would have retrieved better if she hadn't found so many birds to distract her as she looked for the fallen bird ! :lol:

I thought that was a very clearly shown method of dizzying a pigeon Gundogguy. It beats my usual method by a mile ! Can't help feeling a wee bit sorry for the pigeons though ! :lol:

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by crackerd » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:26 am

All thanks to gundogguy for his "intervention" here - saved the OP a lot of misery and maybe enlightened a few others with different ideas on planting. Next he can tell you how pigeons are planted by the handler for a quartering/questing dog and really offer up a gold nugget.

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by DonF » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:47 am

Trekmoor wrote:I enjoyed the video Robert. Why did the handler tell his dog, "There ! There !" near the clump of spike grass as it hunted a short while into the film ?
A failure to mark fallen birds is very common among beginner handlers. The handlers are so intent on making sure the dog sits and stays sitting that they do not look at the falling bird. I used to see a lot of that when judging HPR trials. As a nice friendly , helpful sort of judge I was infamous for telling a couple of non-marking handlers who ,when told to send their dogs to retrieve, asked where the bird had fallen because they hadn't been looking....... " Well you'd better hope your dog was looking ! Now send the dog !" :lol:

The spaniel in the film enjoyed herself. She would have retrieved better if she hadn't found so many birds to distract her as she looked for the fallen bird ! :lol:

I thought that was a very clearly shown method of dizzying a pigeon Gundogguy. It beats my usual method by a mile ! Can't help feeling a wee bit sorry for the pigeons though ! :lol:

Bill T.
Marking the bird, good point! Years ago in AKC pointing dog trials a lot of handlers had the habit of paying close attention to their dog on the flush and wouldn't mark the bird down. To make matter's worse if a dog turned or stepped out of cover to mark a bird most judges, well no judge would use the dog. The rules said the gunner couldn't tell the handler where the bird was so what they did was a simple question to the gunner, up or down! Poor dog work much of the time. I never used a dog if the handler asked and the dog didn't have the bird well marked. In AKC they didn't give much value to the dog marking the bird, only that the dog was scent and in some way got the bird and brought it back! I asked an old time judge about the dog stepping from cover to mark a bird. His answer was simple. /all the dog's were so close that they had to do something to sort them out. Myself, I have never seen the dog's that close. There are always the dog's that will place them selves but, the whole dog must be watched and judged and a dog that makes a mistake should be able to make u for that mistake as it goes. Not so in the AKC that I knew! I haven't been out on course in years watching dog's but I do go watch call backs for retrieving, some very good dog's but just as bad work as ever was allowed.

Years ago I watched a very well known pro in a call back. Pretty bad cover and his dog made no effort to mark the bird. He didn't either. so rather than chance his dog not finding the bird, he complained to the judges it wasn't fair because of the cover. Judges bought it and they took a dead bird out to the side of the field to a road and threw a dead bird down the road and had him send the dog then. Did it and the dog won the stake. I would not have allowed the toss and if the dog and the handler neither one could produce the first bird or did so with what had to be hunting for an unmarked bird, I would not have used the dog. The dog must be allowed to mark the bird and if it has to move from cover, so be it. There's a big difference from moving to mark the bird and breaking! And if the handler doesn't mark the bird himself it's only because he was busy keeping his dog on the point, in effect he's blocking the dog, against the rules but a rule most judges would not enforce.
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by Vernal Pike » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:11 pm

Thanks for all the good guidance.
The reason why I ask about planting pigeons is because I can't find any Chukar this time of year until the bird hunting preserve season starts in the autumn. And I want to get out in the woods with this 1 year old pup to train as we will be hunting ruffed grouse in Ontario the first week in October for her first wild bird hunt.

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by polmaise » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:59 pm

gundogguy wrote:Very Nice Robert, Live bird training is a step in the progression of Handler and dogs development.
Thank You Hal.
Some can't dizzy a bird and even less can dizzy one to a required level for the dog in training. In some countries it's also not allowed and for that it is allowed , it creates more problems than solving any if it isn't done right .
Like all things ..A novice is better with one who has experience rather than 'go it alone' and try. :wink:

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by gundogguy » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:34 pm

" Some can't dizzy a bird and even less can dizzy one to a required level for the dog in training. In some countries it's also not allowed"

Robert you are well aware I am familiar with the difference of what is allowed in the UK and a here in North America. Training birds of all stripes have been planted here in North america by the millions. That practise will go on from down until the place freezes over. Spaniel folks here and in Canada have taken bird planting for dog training to an art form. :D :D

Vernal Pike should contact some of the Spaniel folks in Ontario there are a good number of them that can provide information on the subject!
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by gundogguy » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:36 pm

crackerd wrote:All thanks to gundogguy for his "intervention" here - saved the OP a lot of misery and maybe enlightened a few others with different ideas on planting. Next he can tell you how pigeons are planted [b]by the handler for a quartering/questing dog and really offer up a gold nugget.
[/b]
MG
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Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by welsh » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:28 pm

Vernal Pike wrote:.... I want to get out in the woods with this 1 year old pup to train as we will be hunting ruffed grouse in Ontario the first week in October for her first wild bird hunt.
One thing to keep in mind especially with a young dog is you can do a lot with wing-clips, which takes the planting out of the equation and also lets you focus on bird finding without worrying about steadiness (if you intend that) or calling the dog back after the flush.

As far as teaching a dog to use the wind and find birds goes, wing-clips give you everything that flyers do, and they never flush wild. ;)

Also, you can reuse them many times if you've got a soft-mouthed dog. Flyers, not so much....

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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by DonF » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:46 am

I don't clip pigeon feather's, I pull them. Read years ago that you clip them and they won't come back till the bird molt's. Pull them and they will quickly come back.
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by gundogguy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:52 am

DonF wrote:I don't clip pigeon feather's, I pull them. Read years ago that you clip them and they won't come back till the bird molt's. Pull them and they will quickly come back.

Over the years I have done both methods clipped and pulled. Normally they get used on multiple dogs during a training day, land and water, very rarely would they be returned to the pen for rehab. I have seen clipped wings grow back before any molt took place.
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Re: Planting pigeons for flushing dog

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:20 am

DonF wrote:I don't clip pigeon feather's, I pull them. Read years ago that you clip them and they won't come back till the bird molt's. Pull them and they will quickly come back.
Right on. We often pull the 9th and 10th flights on our young birds in April or May so the birds will have a full set when we start racing them in Aug. and Sept, I learned the difference between pulling and clipping years ago when we had to keep the chickens in the chicken yard. you do need to be careful about pulling them when the birds are too young. If the feathers are still in the blood stage they may never grow back.

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Post by welsh » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:04 am

In practice I tape mine. Working with only two dogs I can reuse the same birds for weeks.

Taping the flight feathers of one wing does the job neatly. I use masking tape, because it's easy to remove. Most people I know use electrical tape or they pull the feathers.

Nobody I know actually clips wings.

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Post by gundogguy » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:21 pm

welsh wrote:In practice I tape mine. Working with only two dogs I can reuse the same birds for weeks.

Taping the flight feathers of one wing does the job neatly. I use masking tape, because it's easy to remove. Most people I know use electrical tape or they pull the feathers.

Nobody I know actually clips wings.

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Right-on! Welsh. Masking tape works very well, if your building strength of flush and delivery to hand.
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