Training 2 dogs

[Feathers'n'Furr]

I introduced myself over in the introduction forum, I'm new to the forum and I'm looking forward to learning a lot from everyone here. So here's where I'm currently at, I have 2 dogs that I'm trying to train.

The first is a 2 year old female GSP, I've had her since she was 8 weeks and we have an incredible bond. She is extremely obedient in both the yard and field, gun broke, water obsessed, very solid fetch and collar conditioned. She does great with all the basic command(sit,stay,down,heel,come) along with some hand signals,and she has gone on dove and duck hunts. But she has never done any upland hunting and never been trained on live birds. So essentially I'm needing to get her trained on whoa, and I've just gotten the capability to start working her on live birds. She does point a bunch of trash when we go out on walks or when she's running around the house (pointed a turkey this morning on the way to do water retrieves, turkey flushed from under a bush when I got about 3 feet from it and about gave me a heart attack) and has a good prey drive.

The second is a 2.5 year old male GWP that I just recently rescued about a week ago, he's already completed his junior hunt test and is coming from a pretty solid hunting bloodline. Breeder bought him to breed for show and has recently changed her mind. He seems to have a good temperament, is gun broke and evidently a very good bird finder with a solid point. With that being said he isn't a fan of water and from my understanding doesn't respond well to a heavy hand(the breeders husband). He's recovering from getting neutered so right now I'm just trying to build a bond with him, establish dominance and rebuild his basic obedience to my commands.

With all of that being said here's my plan and I would greatly appreciate y'alls input, the less sugar coating the better. I plan to train the two seperately for the time being until they're atleast on the same page across the board(obedient in home and field,whoa trained, collar conditioned, steady to point, and most of all equally bonded to me without any competition for my attention). I plan to take both of them to a local trainer at Anderson Creek Game Preserve here in North Carolina once a week, then atleast one day a week working with just myself and pigeons here on some public Game land. The rest of the week will be dedicated to obedience, swimming, fetch and general exercise. Individually I think I'm best off starting with just getting my GSP crazy about live birds before I start trying to break her on whoa and getting her steady.

With the GWP I feel like my best bet for now is just getting him to be a good pet and being his buddy, I feel like he'll be easier to get working in the field since he has experience, so for now I just want to get him listening to me.

Ultimately my end goal is to have them training together and hopefully hunting in brace. Is it crazy to think I may be able to have these two ready to hunt over farm raised birds by January time frame? They'll be hunting farm raised pheasants,chukars, and quail if they are ready. Then in may of next year we'll be relocating to Idaho and hopefully introducing them to wild birds.

[birddogger2]

I think both dogs would benefit greatly from a couple months of heel/whoa drills(after the manner of Paul Long). I do those drills but use a waxed cotton pigging string. You could also use a Smith Wonder Lead which is very similar.

The drill takes about 5 minutes per dog. I do them morning and evening.

In fairly short order you should have the dogs standing when you are stopped and be able to walk in front and simulate a flush. Then you can take the dogs to the field and repeat the drill. When each is standing, you can toss a pigeon from a bird bag. If the dog breaks to chase, you should have the lead in hand and pop it to correct.

A few of these and you should have each dog steady to wing. Rinse and repeat.

One more thing...during the heel/whoa drill, if the dog attempts to sit when you stop...immediately move forward to stop the dog from completing the sit. Many dog that have been taught to sit and stay... will try to sit because that is a "safe" place. However, the goal of this drill is to have a dog stand and stand tall, throughout flush and shot(and fall if you so desire), so a sit is not a correct response. Most pointing dog owners do not teach their dogs to sit until after they learn to stand their birds for this reason.

It is, in my opinion, far, far better and easier to teach a dog that it must stop and stand first, and THEN introduce the bird.

If you want more, I heartily recommend Paul Long's book. Also, "Training with Mo" goes over many of the same things and does it very well. Both are quite reasonably priced and well written, easy reads.

You can also PM me.

RayG

[Steve007]

With all of that being said here's my plan and I would greatly appreciate y'alls input, the less sugar coating the better. I plan to train the two seperately for the time being until they're atleast on the same page across the board(obedient in home and field,whoa trained, collar conditioned, steady to point, and most of all equally bonded to me without any competition for my attention). I plan to take both of them to a local trainer at Anderson Creek Game Preserve here in North Carolina once a week, then atleast one day a week working with just myself and pigeons here on some public Game land. The rest of the week will be dedicated to obedience, swimming, fetch and general exercise.

With the GWP I feel like my best bet for now is just getting him to be a good pet and being his buddy, I feel like he'll be easier to get working in the field since he has experience, so for now I just want to get him listening to me.

I wouldn't for a moment disagree with Ray, but would like to reinforce your plan to get the Wire to be your pal before you get too carried away. It''s a terrific breed, but they won't work for someone they don't like. Further, you'll note the husband said the dog doesn't like a heavy hand. You might contemplate how the husband found that out. Every day light obedience with lots of praise is a good idea. Tell the local trainer (when you get there) to go slow. Wires are not fuzzy shorthairs. Training separately is of course the thing to do..for a long while.

[birddogger2]

With all of that being said here's my plan and I would greatly appreciate y'alls input, the less sugar coating the better. I plan to train the two seperately for the time being until they're atleast on the same page across the board(obedient in home and field,whoa trained, collar conditioned, steady to point, and most of all equally bonded to me without any competition for my attention). I plan to take both of them to a local trainer at Anderson Creek Game Preserve here in North Carolina once a week, then atleast one day a week working with just myself and pigeons here on some public Game land. The rest of the week will be dedicated to obedience, swimming, fetch and general exercise.

With the GWP I feel like my best bet for now is just getting him to be a good pet and being his buddy, I feel like he'll be easier to get working in the field since he has experience, so for now I just want to get him listening to me.

I wouldn't for a moment disagree with Ray, but would like to reinforce your plan to get the Wire to be your pal before you get too carried away. It''s a terrific breed, but they won't work for someone they don't like. Further, you'll note the husband said the dog doesn't like a heavy hand. You might contemplate how the husband found that out. Every day light obedience with lots of praise is a good idea. Tell the local trainer (when you get there) to go slow. Wires are not fuzzy shorthairs. Training separately is of course the thing to do..for a long while.

I would agree with steve007 on this as well. Don't know too much about the temperaments of continentals in general or wires in particular, but a dog that actually likes you and wants to be with you is a whole lot easier(and a whole lot more fun) to bring along. I never understood why some folks who owned German Shorthairs trained like the dogs were SS Panzer recruits.

RayG

RayG

[NC Quailhunter]

The trainer at Anderson Creek should do a good job for you. I would get in touch with the Tarheel Chapter of NAVHDA. They train at Rusty Guns Kennels which is right next to Anderson Creek in Lillington. They should be able to help you work your dogs and get them where you want them to be. Also the Carolinas chapter isn't too far from you. Hope this helps.

[Featherfinder]

I like what has been offered already by Ray/Steve et al. I have to admit, my greatest shortcomings in my dogs are obedience based. My dogs are exceptional wild bird hunters - I have a high expectation there-in so my definition of obedience is....unique. The concern I have with obedience or specifically the "whoa" command is that far too many owner/handlers don't seem to be able to work a find unless the word "whoa" falls out of their mouth (often repeatedly), even when the dog is holding. ???
Got into a discussion once about this before. The chap said, "My GSP is creeping on pheasants (actually self-relocating on runners but I digress) and when I say whoa, he doesn't stop!" I get it - no excuses - the dog should stop on "whoa". My question was, "Why are you saying whoa?"
He said, "Because he is creeping and creeping and then the bird flushes!"
My response was, "OK, but that means the dog got it wrong, regardless of the disregard for the obedience command (whoa). The core issue is that the dog is bumping during the relocate process. THAT is the core issue as I see it even if the dog does "whoa" on command (remember, the dog might whoa but I'm betting the bird won't know that command). In-other-words, this dog will not hold runners even if it does "whoa" which doesn't make me happy personally. Self-relocation is a tremendous asset on running birds however it is not an excuse for bumping runners what-so-ever.
I won many a trial by casually dismounting, handing the judge my horse's reins, flushing the bird, firing the shot, then returning to my dog to send her/him on. The only words used were, "Atta boy!" after the release (pumped them right up knowing they did well).
Now, let's be fair NO dog gets it right 100% of the time but I believe that by keeping quiet and allowing the dog to focus on success versus failure (I often interrupt the hunt re failure), you achieve the goal more expeditiously and end up with a more reliable dog, minus the "whoa". Again, just my way of doing things.
By-the-way, great choice re the Anderson Ranch.

[birddogger2]

I like what has been offered already by Ray/Steve et al. I have to admit, my greatest shortcomings in my dogs are obedience based. My dogs are exceptional wild bird hunters - I have a high expectation there-in so my definition of obedience is....unique. The concern I have with obedience or specifically the "whoa" command is that far too many owner/handlers don't seem to be able to work a find unless the word "whoa" falls out of their mouth (often repeatedly), even when the dog is holding. ???
Got into a discussion once about this before. The chap said, "My GSP is creeping on pheasants (actually self-relocating on runners but I digress) and when I say whoa, he doesn't stop!" I get it - no excuses - the dog should stop on "whoa". My question was, "Why are you saying whoa?"
He said, "Because he is creeping and creeping and then the bird flushes!"
My response was, "OK, but that means the dog got it wrong, regardless of the disregard for the obedience command (whoa). The core issue is that the dog is bumping during the relocate process. THAT is the core issue as I see it even if the dog does "whoa" on command (remember, the dog might whoa but I'm betting the bird won't know that command). In-other-words, this dog will not hold runners even if it does "whoa" which doesn't make me happy personally. Self-relocation is a tremendous asset on running birds however it is not an excuse for bumping runners what-so-ever.
I won many a trial by casually dismounting, handing the judge my horse's reins, flushing the bird, firing the shot, then returning to my dog to send her/him on. The only words used were, "Atta boy!" after the release (pumped them right up knowing they did well).
Now, let's be fair NO dog gets it right 100% of the time but I believe that by keeping quiet and allowing the dog to focus on success versus failure (I often interrupt the hunt re failure), you achieve the goal more expeditiously and end up with a more reliable dog, minus the "whoa". Again, just my way of doing things.
By-the-way, great choice re the Anderson Ranch.

Whoa, to my way of thinking, is a command which should never need to be verbalized around birds. Whoa, to me means that the dog must stop... INSTANTLY and remain still, not so much as moving a toenail.

I start with heck/whoa drills and the dog learns what whoa means through the action of a waxed cotton rope and an upraised palm. I do overlay the verbal "whoa", but it is just that...an overlay. These days I also then overlay the e-collar. I then take most dogs to the field, with the checkcord on and introduce the dog to the scent of the bird and again, overlay the "whoa" cue with the checkcord, either on a flat collar, prong collar, pinch collar or e-collar, depending on the dog. On some dogs I find it useful to overlay the "whoa " cue in the field by popping a trap and popping the checkcord or using a nick from the e-collar.

When I do holler "whoa" in the field, it is very likely because the dog is headed for a roadway or toward property I don't have permission to trespass on...and YES the dog had better stop...dead in its tracks...or there will be he!! to pay.

All of the above is done pretty much silently, except as noted. I want to be in a position to stand aside from the interaction of the dog with the bird and bird scent.

Essentially I want the scent of the bird to SCREAM WHOA to the dog and to have the obedience training kick in. Then I can walk in, flush the bird, shoot it...or not... and still be the good guy who praises the dog for doing it right. Even if the bird runs out from under the dog's point before I get there, if the dog did not move...it did it right and deserves praise from me.

RayG

[Featherfinder]

I see what you mean Ray. I like to say, "Here" to redirect a dog going towards peril/boundaries or in the event of an unexpected incident I will say, "Come". I simply do not like the dog to develop the dependency of verbals because there are often times when the dog has a find in dense cover or over a hill. I expect her/him to be there when I arrive. In a trial where there can be 30+ dogs in a stake, there are essentially 29 losers and 1 winner. When the dog is doing a stellar job, the handler has to step up his/her game too. A polished performance minus the "whoa" on finds conveys confidence to both the dog AND the judges, in my opinion. Further to this, I have seen very classy dogs drop their tails once the handler says," Whoa". Again, no big deal but in an event where there is only one first place......
It just seems like some handlers NEED to hear themselves say "Whoa" even when it comes with a cost. Furthermore, it can instill a dependency in your dog - won't hold unless you say, "whoa", then "Whoa...whooooa", then Whoa...whoooa...whooooooa........WHOA!!", etc. etc. Drives me crazy!