dog ignores birds in launcher

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jstevens
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dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by jstevens » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:18 pm

I have just started working a pointer on birds. She is working well, but I want to use the launcher so I can flush pen-raised birds at will. My dog doesn't seem to pick them up when in the launcher. Of course it's summer, hot and dry, not the best for scent in general. Has anyone ever seen this?

shags
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by shags » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:06 pm

A few things come to mind:

Don't use smelly lubricants on the launchers, no WD40, Hoppe's, etc.
Don't bury the launchers in heavy cover when scenting conditions are lousy.
If you can, train early when conditions are better.
Be sure you're reading the dog correctly, that she isn't blinking the launchers.

Good luck; cooler are days are on the way :)

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Tooling
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by Tooling » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:08 pm

Are you certain she's not picking up scent? Is it possible she's blinking the birds?

setterpoint
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by setterpoint » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:12 pm

take the birds and sweep it on the weeds in front of the launcher always were gloves so less of your scent is on the birds place bird in launcher a few feet behind where you sweep the birds as soon as you see the dog smells the scent if it dosnt point pop the bird .another thing you can do is plant a bird in front of the launcher you need to have a check cord on the dog for this when the dog smells the bird if he dosnt point launch the bird the dog will chase the bird from the launcher

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tekoa
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by tekoa » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:05 pm

Sounds to me like he's blinking. Has a launched bird ever scared him? Is he ok on hand planted birds, wild birds, tossed clip wings? He should be aggressively chasing birds before you start using a launcher. If none of the above, try this:

I had this problem with friends GSP that I was training. Changed to launchers with large holes in side plates, scrubbed launcher of oil, cleaned with game scented rag, used gloves with game scent when handling birds, drug bird through brush adjacent to launcher before loading the bird. Let it all sit for a bit especially in dry, days with no breeze to allow scent to build and drift. Dog worked the bird ok after that.

Never had this problem with any other dogs though. All of them seemed to have the opposite problem, they'd find launcher from my scent, the scent of lubrication, scent from wherever the launcher was stored, bird scent, trampled grass, direction I came back to the truck from or any other thing that dogs can do that they keep secret.

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gundogguy
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by gundogguy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:53 am

I have always been old school when using birds, Live bird Launchers are just to darn contrived and artificial. The more technology the more that can go wrong keep it simple. Learn to plant pigeons quail and chukar. Of all the all the training birds Chukar are fool proof to plant. Easy peasy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyxLICOwJmg
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jstevens
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by jstevens » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:14 am

shags wrote:A few things come to mind:

Don't use smelly lubricants on the launchers, no WD40, Hoppe's, etc.
Don't bury the launchers in heavy cover when scenting conditions are lousy.
If you can, train early when conditions are better.
Be sure you're reading the dog correctly, that she isn't blinking the launchers.

Good luck; cooler are days are on the way :)
I think it's scent conditions, I did bury it as I didn't want her to see it. I have only turned loose one bird, and she took after it normally. Her bird finding was good on planted birds. I am leaning towards the fact they were quail (small birds) singles and of course it's hot, dry, and lots of cover. I do know when I had her out in the morning, she often was birdy, but seemed confused as to which direction they were, would get birdy immediately, but take a while to nail them down.

When I went right before dark, she found birds quicker, and nailed nice solid points. I think it was more conditions, it's about 100 here now, so I'm going to wait anyway for things to cool down. I'm going to put about 200 birds into my buddy's flight pen as soon as it cools off some, so she'll get plenty to work about September/October.

jstevens
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by jstevens » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:15 am

gundogguy wrote:I have always been old school when using birds, Live bird Launchers are just to darn contrived and artificial. The more technology the more that can go wrong keep it simple. Learn to plant pigeons quail and chukar. Of all the all the training birds Chukar are fool proof to plant. Easy peasy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyxLICOwJmg
I may try chukar instead of quail, also, just bigger and more scent for a pup.

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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by DonF » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:27 am

I take it your using remote launcher's? Little trick to them, you act like bird. You have to know exactly where the launcher is and if the dog get within about 1' of it upwind, pop the bird. If it get close, say 20' down wind, pop the bird. Early on do not give your dog much of an opportunity to point. A wild bird not handled right will get out, so should you! Pay close attention, if the dog is coming into range and down, as soon ad the dog recognizes something is there, pop the bird. If it come's in and should have realized it, pop the bird. You can either teach your dog to do what you want or you can teach it to handle birds! But you need to do the thinking for the bird!

Had a guy come over with his dog several years ago looking for help. A shooting preserve near him gave him a really nice looking B/W shorthair. They claimed the dog had to much prey drive and it wouldn't point. Well about five birds into it, the dog pointed. I intentionally kept the dog from being able to point. Finally it slammed a point, beat me to the button. On those you do not pop the bird, dog wins!

One thing to check before you get going, is the dog birdy to begin with? Take the dog and a few pigeons out and when the dog is looking at you, throw a pigeon. Two different thing's should happen if your dog is ready. Either it chase's the bird or it stops and watch's the bird fly away. If it won't do either of those things, pup is not ready to move on. Most dog's come out birdy, some don't. My Stormy was 11 mos before he ever gave much notice to the bird. Well, those days are gone and he'll point every time now. Don't push him to do what you want, let him discover it on his own. If it's not birdy yet, it won't point, probably not even looking.

Gertie on here started a bit late. First time I saw her, Holly came over with her and she didn't care less about a bird. about a month later she turned into a demon. Keep in mind, a dog is not going to point something it doesn't know exist's, give it time.
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jstevens
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by jstevens » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:36 am

She's definitely birdy and will chase. Your approach is what I was wanting to do, but I didn't let it fly when she wasn't acting like she had a scent. The launcher is new, so I'm thinking next time I load up some birds, I'll put the launcher in the cage, so it has some bird smell rather than canvas and oily metal. I want to make her think the birds are wild, so she doesn't flush them when we get her on wild quail this fall.

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Featherfinder
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:39 pm

A pointing dog's greatest attribute is her/his ability to stand off birds and point (nose). There is no way that a decent bird dog does not know when a bird is in a launcher, kick cage, etc. - even one that is seasoned (has residual bird excrement). Yes, the scent of the bird usually over-rides the scent of the launcher. To assume a dog does not know that the situation is contrived or synthetic is a mistake. I personally only use launchers in very limited situations to correct issues. Even then, they have a narrow application. More decent bird dogs develop problems using launchers than you can possibly imagine. It can be an intermediary step but it is one that has a VERY short life span.

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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:24 am

I have only used launchers, cages, dizzied birds etc. a few times . Basically I don't like them much. My very first pointing dog, a Brittany, was totally contemptuous of contrived situations and of human hand scent on the birds or on the equipment used, she used to find "planted" birds then at once move in and if she could she would position herself carefully and then piddle all over the poor bird !

That same pup was very cautious around "real" birds and she won a few field trials. If possible I would never work a pointing breed onto any kind of "planted" bird.....the real birds work far better.

If I saw a dog blink a planted bird I'd at once suspect one of two things. (a) The dog did not want to find the bird due to lack of interest in birds (b) The dog had been "corrected" in the presence of game. The word "corrected" can mean several things , not necessarily actual physical correction. It is what the individual dog perceives as correction that matters.

The second of those two things is the most likely in any decently bred bird dog.

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Featherfinder
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Re: dog ignores birds in launcher

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:59 am

If you insist on using a launcher, pay critical attention to the wind. Lead your dog across the launcher from a reasonably "pointable" distance at ~90 degrees. This will provide you with an indicator as to when to ideally launch. ANY indication (head tilt/tail wagging) what-so-ever from your dog that she/he has detected the bird is the trigger to launch. It's so much easier to see this when crossing the scent rather than approaching straight downwind trying to guess when you should launch.
For my dogs, pigeons are integral part of their development. I do use quail/chukar to finish my dogs but that is only once they are steady. Folk say, "Pigeons are hardly even a game bird!" Their dogs adopt that attitude towards pigeons from their owners demeanor and guess what, they don't respect pigeons for what they are - a tremendous, non-catchable, reasonably cheap, hearty resource, especially for young dogs. Not everyone has an abundant collection of wild birds in their back yard. Furthermore, not everyone is legally allowed to run on wild birds even when there are lots. Your pup can't wait 6+ years to accumulate what it needs through experience on the seasonal or cyclic "wild birds" population.
Pigeons simulate the habits of a wild bird FAR more than pen-raised quail or chukars too. Pigeons don't fly a specified distance and then land there-by provoking a young dog that has found it's legs to chase and be rewarded for chasing by catching that pen-raised exhausted quail/chukar.
Go out and shoot a couple of pigeons for your dog, then tell me they don't like them.
So your dog doesn't look quite as stylish on pigeons. Of course, a dog will always look more intense on actual wild birds which.....is a good thing! In fact, many upland hunters can tell whether their dog is pointing a grouse versus a woodcock. Got to love bird dogs!
Oh.....and 99% of the time, my pigeon-started dogs are used to hunt wild birds once their training is complete.

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