Smartworks

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JJWISE
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Smartworks

Post by JJWISE » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:15 pm

Hello everyone, this is my first time posting in the forum. I have a 13 week old Boykin Spaniel and this is my first hunting dog and therefore also my first time training one. I'm not looking to speed through this process, but I have noticed he seems to be a very fast learner and has a lot of drive to chase things that I throw and carry them around. He (somewhat) knows sit stay come by voice and whistle, and I'm going to spend quite a while firming those up before I move any further. . I used Water Dog and Game Dog by Richard Wolters to teach the very basics, but his books lack a lot of detail about REAL training that I was looking for. So I bought Smartworks and Smart Fetch by Evan Graham. I had heard an e-collar was not required for this method and I don't own one. I do have a pinch collar and 30ft check cord though. Even though it's going to be a while before we get into serious training, do you all think it's doable without the e collar? Also any thoughts or tips about the program would be great

Trekmoor
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Re: Smartworks

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:39 am

Welcome to the forum. :D
I envy you your Boykin, I have never even seen one, Britain has few ,if any, Boykins ! I can say for certain that it is possible to train a gundog to a very high standard without ever using an e-collar. Training gundogs without using e-collars is the normal thing to do in Britain. I have trained spaniels, retrievers and some of the versatile breeds without using one .......except for when I get a dog that is a keen sheep chaser.

Bill T.
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gonehuntin'
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Re: Smartworks

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:43 am

It is just easier and faster with an ecollar but no problem at all training a dog without one.
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Meskousing
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Re: Smartworks

Post by Meskousing » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:45 am

If you don't want to use an e-collar consider getting a program that doesn't use an e-collar. Evan Graham's stuff relies on an e-collar. It's hard to follow his program without an e-collar. If you "follow" SmartFetch without an e-collar, then you're not following his program. In a sense, it would "void the warranty" of the program.

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gundogguy
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Re: Smartworks

Post by gundogguy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:49 am

gonehuntin' wrote:It is just easier and faster with an ecollar but no problem at all training a dog without one.
I agree with you GoneHunting, for you and I. Heck between us we have probable work with a 1000 dogs or more The OP has his first dog he has made a good decision in acquiring Evan's Smartwork program. Let him study Evan's program, train his pup, and maybe in two years or so he will be ready for an "easier, faster" way!
Not really knowing the OP goals, and chances are he has not established what he really wants in a dog, non-slip or upland. I think most new folks would be better off in the beginning with out electronics.
Best of fortunes for the new dog owner and his pup!
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crackerd
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Re: Smartworks

Post by crackerd » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:04 am

JJWISE wrote:...I bought Smartworks and Smart Fetch by Evan Graham. I had heard an e-collar was not required for this method and I don't own one. I do have a pinch collar and 30ft check cord though. Even though it's going to be a while before we get into serious training, do you all think it's doable without the e collar? Also any thoughts or tips about the program would be great
No, as you''ve been told elsewhere, advanced retriever training, especially with a Boykin is not NOT "doable without the e-collar." Especially for a first-time trainer with a breed that doesn't do well with physical corrections, not to mention you couldn't make those physical corrections afield at 50-100-150 yards out in the first place with anything close to the timing required to get through to the dog on where and how it's gone wrong.

And another thing: From whom did you hear that "an e-collar was not required for Evan Graham's training method?" - when his water force and forcing on "over" casts are the highlight of his program, and cannot be done physically without the e-collar.

MG

Trekmoor
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Re: Smartworks

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:40 am

Are Boykins expected to compete successfully in retriever trials/tests at the higher levels Mike ? That they can be very good and keen retrievers I do not doubt ....it is one of the reasons I like the sound of the breed but surely the labs , goldies etc. dominate the higher end of tests ?

If that is the case then does an e-collar still have to be used to train a boykin to be a very good, reliable retriever for the "average man ?"
Has the boykin been lumped in beside the retrievers instead of with the spaniels in the U.S. ?
Bill T.
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jpowell44
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Re: Smartworks

Post by jpowell44 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:43 am

JJWISE wrote:Hello everyone, this is my first time posting in the forum. I have a 13 week old Boykin Spaniel and this is my first hunting dog and therefore also my first time training one. I'm not looking to speed through this process, but I have noticed he seems to be a very fast learner and has a lot of drive to chase things that I throw and carry them around. He (somewhat) knows sit stay come by voice and whistle, and I'm going to spend quite a while firming those up before I move any further. . I used Water Dog and Game Dog by Richard Wolters to teach the very basics, but his books lack a lot of detail about REAL training that I was looking for. So I bought Smartworks and Smart Fetch by Evan Graham. I had heard an e-collar was not required for this method and I don't own one. I do have a pinch collar and 30ft check cord though. Even though it's going to be a while before we get into serious training, do you all think it's doable without the e collar? Also any thoughts or tips about the program would be great
I have a 13 month old Boykin that is my first hunting dog also. I am speaking from my own very limited experience, but I think it would be hard without an e collar. If you decide to get an e collar don't use until he is ready and definitely don't over use it.

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crackerd
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Re: Smartworks

Post by crackerd » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:01 am

Bill, pretty much "affirmative" in some way or other to all your questions - yes, Boykins can compete in retriever hunt tests in every retrieving org. in the US, and are faring well at the high end of those tests; not yet (maybe never) are they competing in retriever FTs. Labs dominate HTs, period, but as they're "non-competitive" events, domination's not really a word to be used for running them. But yes, an e-collar would be the training MO for getting a Boykin to that level - and to an advanced level of becoming a "duck dog" as a reliable handling retriever for the average man as well.

But, no, the Boykin is still classified as a spaniel, not a retriever, which means that while it cannot run retriever field trials, it cannae run spaniel FTs either, as only two breeds are eligible for trials in the US, cockers and springers - and as has been noted here before they run only against their own breed, not each other. And spaniel (or flushing) hunt tests are really no test of a Boykin's working ability as a gundog of any kind but at a very basic level.
Trekmoor wrote:Are Boykins expected to compete successfully in retriever trials/tests at the higher levels Mike ? That they can be very good and keen retrievers I do not doubt ....it is one of the reasons I like the sound of the breed but surely the labs , goldies etc. dominate the higher end of tests ?

If that is the case then does an e-collar still have to be used to train a boykin to be a very good, reliable retriever for the "average man ?"
Has the boykin been lumped in beside the retrievers instead of with the spaniels in the U.S. ?
Bill T.
MG

Trekmoor
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Re: Smartworks

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:03 pm

Thanks Mike, I really couldn't see how a boykin could successfully compete against top quality labs in competition. They sound like my kind of dog though .....willing to do just about anything as long as they are working. I've got a lot of time for that kind of dog even if it isn't enough of a specialist breed to compete and win against the specialists.

Bill T.
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crackerd
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Re: Smartworks

Post by crackerd » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:01 pm

Bill, unlike your working tests, for which there's a winner just as in field trials even though they're run on dummies (or cold game?), our hunt tests are run against a standard, which means that every dog entered can "win"...a ribbon for passing the test. In such case, a Boykin doesn't "beat" a Lab, but gets an equal measure of glory for passing the hunt test - retriever hunt tests of which the distances for marks and blinds are generally limited to 125-150 yards (compared to 400+ for both in field trials).

Proudest moment for me with my old girl Cracker - who I lost at 16 years old a couple weeks ago - was when she ran in a hunt test many years ago immediately following a National finalist field trial Lab, and showed her stuff by pinpoint marking all three birds of a triple, then running a blind off those marks right up through the area of the fall on the "money bird" for that series. She also was a water dog and a half that day on her marks and water blind, as the test was run in the teeth of 30mph winds and in 20 degree (F) weather. None of my Labs could ever make prouder than I was of a 25-pound "mud poodle" that day - and she shamed more than a few black dogs that day, too, with her "honesty" in the water.

MG

JJWISE
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Re: Smartworks

Post by JJWISE » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:31 pm

Thanks for all the comments everyone. I have nothing against e collars, but as a first time trainer I didn't feel comfortable with one because I don't know the correct way to use it. Im not looking for any sort of competition champion, as long as he'll go grab a bird and bring it back most of the time, I'm satisfied. I'm going to do my very best without the collar but if I absolutely can't get the results I'm after, I may buy one if I feel confident I can use it correctly. I also have copies of Richard Wolters books and Roebuck's "Spaniels and Retrievers", neither of which use e collars, but I had heard a lot of bad reviews on trying to train with either of those.

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