Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

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themaninblack
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Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by themaninblack » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:41 pm

First off let me start off by saying that I am a rookie trainer, training my first hunting dog. He is a black lab male and he is almost a year and a half old. Anyhow I have been working on single T for about a week and a half now and from what I know he is doing pretty good. I am trying to research and prepare to do lining drills and and casting drills (overs, backs and angle backs) already working on overs on T. I have read many posts and forums about wagon wheel and 8HC drills. The problem I am having is I have read people referring to wagon wheel as a lining drill and as a casting drill. Could someone please explain both the wagon wheel and 8HC in a manner that a rookie trainer can understand?

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gundogguy
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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by gundogguy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:22 am

You should get a lot of explanation on this question. Instead of writing a book this short video will explain very nicely.
wagon wheel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75AbEUMo7H8

another view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKxg0WUq1_g

That will keep you and dog busy for a while best of fortunes.
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themaninblack
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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by themaninblack » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:08 am

gundogguy wrote:You should get a lot of explanation on this question. Instead of writing a book this short video will explain very nicely.
wagon wheel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75AbEUMo7H8

another view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKxg0WUq1_g

That will keep you and dog busy for a while best of fortunes.

Okay I have now learned that wagon wheel is a lining drill... So what are drills that I can do for casting? I thought that was 8HC? Basically wagon wheel but with your dog placed in the center of the wheel at the axle if you will and you the handler giving casts (lefts, rights, backs, angle backs, angle ins etc... if that makes sense.

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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by polmaise » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:36 pm

themaninblack wrote:
gundogguy wrote:You should get a lot of explanation on this question. Instead of writing a book this short video will explain very nicely.
wagon wheel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75AbEUMo7H8

another view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKxg0WUq1_g

That will keep you and dog busy for a while best of fortunes.

Okay I have now learned that wagon wheel is a lining drill... So what are drills that I can do for casting? I thought that was 8HC? Basically wagon wheel but with your dog placed in the center of the wheel at the axle if you will and you the handler giving casts (lefts, rights, backs, angle backs, angle ins etc... if that makes sense.
WW Drill is a lining and casting drill ! ..Just so happens it's casting/sending the dog out . 'Handling' as in left/right- Left hand backs/Right hand backs as you say require the dog to be at the level of at the very least 'stop' ,and or 'stand alone' marks .
But perhaps , Gundogguy can explain better.

themaninblack
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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by themaninblack » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:24 pm

polmaise wrote:
themaninblack wrote:
gundogguy wrote:You should get a lot of explanation on this question. Instead of writing a book this short video will explain very nicely.
wagon wheel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75AbEUMo7H8

another view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKxg0WUq1_g

That will keep you and dog busy for a while best of fortunes.

Okay I have now learned that wagon wheel is a lining drill... So what are drills that I can do for casting? I thought that was 8HC? Basically wagon wheel but with your dog placed in the center of the wheel at the axle if you will and you the handler giving casts (lefts, rights, backs, angle backs, angle ins etc... if that makes sense.
WW Drill is a lining and casting drill ! ..Just so happens it's casting/sending the dog out . 'Handling' as in left/right- Left hand backs/Right hand backs as you say require the dog to be at the level of at the very least 'stop' ,and or 'stand alone' marks .
But perhaps , Gundogguy can explain better.
Okay I was a little confused. I have done a little more research and have seen a post from Evan Graham saying that the wagon wheel casting drill is AKA 8HC. This is where the dog sits remotely in the middle of the circle and you CAST the dog left,right,back,diagonal backs,diagonal ins. There is also a wagon wheel lining drill. Casting in my mind is casting the dog in a certain direction from a remote sit. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this...

polmaise
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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by polmaise » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:07 pm

themaninblack wrote: Okay I was a little confused. I have done a little more research and have seen a post from Evan Graham saying that the wagon wheel casting drill is AKA 8HC. This is where the dog sits remotely in the middle of the circle and you CAST the dog left,right,back,diagonal backs,diagonal ins. There is also a wagon wheel lining drill. Casting in my mind is casting the dog in a certain direction from a remote sit. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this...
Best ask Evan about his post . He is very helpful when the question is relative.

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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:29 am

The same 8 line lining drill can also be run as an 8 line casting drill. Makes it easy to understand for the dog.
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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by DonF » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:00 am

Been a lot of years since I've had a lab and I've only had two. Never saw or heard of this wheel before, really look's interesting. Very similar to using the baseball diamond and more places to cast to. I like that. In the baseball diamond you shoot in the center, pitcher's mound and rotated around to the base's.
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gonehuntin'
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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:26 am

Same with the wagon wheel Don. Teaches the dog to take fine lines, move with the handler, and then take 8 different hand signals. Labs LOVE doing that drill.
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Re: Wagon Wheel vs. 8 Handed Casting

Post by duckn66 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:33 pm

I did my lining drill as a 3 leg first. Once they know where all three piles are (May take a few days) I send them to the right pile. Dog returns and I "no" him off that pile and turn to the other pile and repeat "no" off that pile upon return and so forth and so on. Eventually you can do a 5 leg lining drill and stretch the piles out to a 150 yards or so eventually. After lining drills are done for the session I work on sitting on the whistle but it sounds like you have that already.

Back cast and angle casts are pretty easy to teach. Set out three white buckets or flags 30 yards apart all in a row. Set your dog down facing you about 15-20 yard from the piles then throw a bumper to identify the straight back pile and cast her back with a hand and verbal. Once she has this cast down, work on the left and right angle back then eventually you can mix straight back with angle back casts but for a while you will have to ID each pile before you cast. Pretty soon you can mix up all three and cast from further back and also make her have to carry each cast further.

This goes really quickly and she will have it in no time. Then you can do a W drill and mix in overs, backs and angle backs. And cover lining drills all at the same time. Just make sure she is very reliable on the back and angle back casts before moving on.

make sure you are giving her marks a few times a week and some hup hup bumpers while doing casting drills when she seems to be getting down. Make it fun and do it through attrition- no e collar. Again, Remember to give her marks a couple times a week since that's what she really lives for and loves.

I would not do the wagon wheel as a casting drill until she is more advanced. Use it now as a lining drill if you want to.

Lots of ways to skin this cat. This is just how I did it. "Training retrievers to handle". By DL Walters is an old book but still very much a viable one which methods are tried and true and also the basis upon all other methods I think.

Another really really good drill is "walking baseball". This is an excellent thing to do at any time after your dog learns casts.

No pro here and someone will shoot this full of holes and I'll be the one eating crow but I'm learning g as well.

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