cocker
cocker
I wondered how difficult training a cocker is compared to pointing breed. I wondered if needed the same bird contacts to become a proficient hunter. With bird population not what they were years ago just cant get dog into the numbers required to make them reach potential. So thought cocker might not require the same amount of birds as pointing breed. I've never owned or even hunted behind a cocker so any thoughts or experiences shared would be appreciated.
Re: cocker
Sorry, didn't notice your post until now, thought it deserved a reply. I have cockers and have also trained some of the pointing breeds.
Much of a cockers training can be done in the absence of game although game certainly does help to get them really motoring. There is very little game around me but I used tennis balls layed out in a "pattern" to encourage the cockers to hunt (and to retrieve.) The pup is first encouraged to chase and retrieve tennis balls and then is left in the vehicle while I place anything from 10 balls down to 6 balls out among (to begin with) light cover. The balls are placed to form a "lane" up which the pup is encouraged to quarter from side to side , finding and retrieving the balls as we go while I walk up the centre of the lane.
The lane is kept short in length for beginner pups , maybe about 30 yards, this gives the pup more "finds" and those finds are the pups reward for hunting. Make it all very easy for a beginner pup then space the balls further apart from each other in distance and in the breadth of the "hunt."
You would still need to hunt the pup on real game as often as possible to get a good dog but the tennis balls will encourage the pup to hunt and "accidentally" find game .....and then watch it pick up the pace !
You cannot train pointing dogs without real game but , to some extent, tennis balls make a fairly good substitute for beginner spaniels.
Bill T.
Much of a cockers training can be done in the absence of game although game certainly does help to get them really motoring. There is very little game around me but I used tennis balls layed out in a "pattern" to encourage the cockers to hunt (and to retrieve.) The pup is first encouraged to chase and retrieve tennis balls and then is left in the vehicle while I place anything from 10 balls down to 6 balls out among (to begin with) light cover. The balls are placed to form a "lane" up which the pup is encouraged to quarter from side to side , finding and retrieving the balls as we go while I walk up the centre of the lane.
The lane is kept short in length for beginner pups , maybe about 30 yards, this gives the pup more "finds" and those finds are the pups reward for hunting. Make it all very easy for a beginner pup then space the balls further apart from each other in distance and in the breadth of the "hunt."
You would still need to hunt the pup on real game as often as possible to get a good dog but the tennis balls will encourage the pup to hunt and "accidentally" find game .....and then watch it pick up the pace !
You cannot train pointing dogs without real game but , to some extent, tennis balls make a fairly good substitute for beginner spaniels.
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
Re: cocker
That's a very interesting post, trekmoor! Not my breed or type of hunting, but still.. interesting. Did you invent this idea? And do you suppose you could teach a non-hunting dog breed to hunt that way..if he didn't eat the birds,anyway. Guess you'd have to accustom him to retrieving live birds, too.
Two training challenges for spaniels that separate them from pointy dogs: hunting within range & steadiness to wing & shot.
Hunting within range, Bill already addressed in part. Many people start by hunting up tennis balls & dummies, then progress to wing-clip pigeons. A lot of work is done with wing-clip pigeons because the chief task is to *find birds* while hunting in range. You don't need wild birds for a dog to learn to use the wind. Indeed, using wild birds early on can cause you problems by encouraging the dog to range out.
Steadiness likewise can be learned on pigeons.
Sooner or later the dog needs to learn about pheasants but this can wait some time....
Remember, the spaniel's job unlike the pointer is to remain in range, find birds, and put those birds into the air as quickly as possible.
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Hunting within range, Bill already addressed in part. Many people start by hunting up tennis balls & dummies, then progress to wing-clip pigeons. A lot of work is done with wing-clip pigeons because the chief task is to *find birds* while hunting in range. You don't need wild birds for a dog to learn to use the wind. Indeed, using wild birds early on can cause you problems by encouraging the dog to range out.
Steadiness likewise can be learned on pigeons.
Sooner or later the dog needs to learn about pheasants but this can wait some time....
Remember, the spaniel's job unlike the pointer is to remain in range, find birds, and put those birds into the air as quickly as possible.
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Re: cocker
Thanks Steve. I did not invent the use of tennis balls when training spaniel pups to quarter/hunt. The man who showed me their use used only two balls and the instant his pup had found and given him one ball then set off to hunt again ,he'd quickly flick out another ball to hunt the pup onto. This worked fine for him but it didn't work well for me. My spaniel pup caught me flicking out the other ball and then took too much interest in me and not enough interest in hunting .....these balls are not tossed as marked retrieves. The pup is supposed to find them as it hunts.Steve007 wrote:That's a very interesting post, trekmoor! Not my breed or type of hunting, but still.. interesting. Did you invent this idea? And do you suppose you could teach a non-hunting dog breed to hunt that way..if he didn't eat the birds,anyway. Guess you'd have to accustom him to retrieving live birds, too.
All I did was modify the idea to better suit myself and my dogs. I made "lanes" using numerous balls then hunted the pups up the lanes. I spaced the balls out to best suit the abilities of whatever pup I was training. This can give a pup a "pattern" and a quartering distance.
To keep a pup close quartering use short distances of ball spacings ......Even hard going pointing dogs will hunt closer after a while if there is plenty of birds to be found near to the handler.
I honestly don't know how using a tennis ball lane might work out in the U.S. , the reason for this being how we train retrieving here.
I make every dog I get into a retrieve fanatic and can often have a pup in that state by 5 months old.....this is long before I have trained any kind of steadiness or stop to voice or whistle. All the pup will know is how to run-in and return with a ball or other retrieve object to me .....no sits, no stays and definitely no heelwork.
When a pup at that stage finds a tennis ball it has not seen thrown it will pick it up and return with it. I don't think I have ever bought a tennis ball but I've got lots of them ! My dogs find the balls lost by other people and their dogs and bring them to me. A spaniel pup, taught using tennis balls, can be pretty good at quartering long before I have even taught it to sit !
Lack of readily available game has always been a problem for me so I have had to use game substitutes when hunt training spaniels....just like most of us use bumpers as game substitutes for retrieving purposes. Tennis balls and bumpers are a means to an end but not an end in themselves. Real gundogs work on real game .....the rest are only playing at it .
P.S. Steve. A retriever could be trained in that way but I.M.O. , not a pointing dog . A pointing dog should only be pointing live game ....not tennis balls or bumpers or even dead birds. Imagine trekking a quarter of a mile across rough country to reach a dog's point and then discover your dog was pointing someone's old tennis ball !
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
Re: cocker
In England they would run cocker trials on rabbits as well as birds. Even if you don't have birds I bet you could get him on rabbits.
Re: cocker
They certainly do run "rabbit only" trials for spaniels in Britain and in my opinion they are far more fun and more exciting to watch than any bird shooting spaniel trials. Unless differently trained I don't think an American work style spaniel would do well in those trials though. Our spaniels are hunted closer in than yours are and that helps to make rabbit shooting safer and a bit easier among cover.
Whenever possible our spaniel field trailers hunt/train their dogs on rabbits. There is nothing quite like rabbits for getting a young dog to put it's nose down and really burrow in to hard cover. Good rabbit shooting ground is greatly sought after here with trainers paying quite a lot of money for such ground and often travelling hundreds of miles to reach it.
Bird trials greatly outnumber rabbit shooting trials however as birds are much more readily available.
Bill T.
Whenever possible our spaniel field trailers hunt/train their dogs on rabbits. There is nothing quite like rabbits for getting a young dog to put it's nose down and really burrow in to hard cover. Good rabbit shooting ground is greatly sought after here with trainers paying quite a lot of money for such ground and often travelling hundreds of miles to reach it.
Bird trials greatly outnumber rabbit shooting trials however as birds are much more readily available.
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
cocker
Not only that, but our dogs are trained to drive in hard and anything at ground level belongs to them. Training on rabbits is more or less incompatible with wing-clop pigeons.Trekmoor wrote:... I don't think an American work style spaniel would do well in those trials though. Our spaniels are hunted closer in than yours are and that helps to make rabbit shooting safer and a bit easier among cover.
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Re: cocker
Most of our spaniels think the same thing !welsh wrote:
Not only that, but our dogs are trained to drive in hard and anything at ground level belongs to them.
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Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
Re: cocker
anything else is just yard work no matter the breed.Trekmoor wrote:
You cannot train pointing dogs without real game
Bill T.
- gundogguy
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Re: cocker
Rabbit trials would be out of the question here in the USA. And Bill T is correct prey drive levels increase substantially when spaniels and the infrequent rabbit cross paths.Trekmoor wrote:They certainly do run "rabbit only" trials for spaniels in Britain and in my opinion they are far more fun and more exciting to watch than any bird shooting spaniel trials. Unless differently trained I don't think an American work style spaniel would do well in those trials though. Our spaniels are hunted closer in than yours are and that helps to make rabbit shooting safer and a bit easier among cover.
Whenever possible our spaniel field trailers hunt/train their dogs on rabbits. There is nothing quite like rabbits for getting a young dog to put it's nose down and really burrow in to hard cover. Good rabbit shooting ground is greatly sought after here with trainers paying quite a lot of money for such ground and often travelling hundreds of miles to reach it.
Bird trials greatly outnumber rabbit shooting trials however as birds are much more readily available.
Bill T.
As for training difference between Pointy dogs and Cockers or Springers for that matter the difference is one of thought process. Wild birds train the pointy dog, Man has to train the Spaniel. As Welsh mentioned a reliable spaniel must learn to hunt within gun range.
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.
Re: cocker
Welll.. not quite. My FC is a topflight wild bird dog (so unlike some, I'm not biased). But the idea that it requires wild birds to train a pointing dog is narrow-minded and false. It's always nice, but I've hunted with several friends' well-trained trial or preserve dogs the first time they encounter wild birds. They may crowd initially, but a good dog adjusts quickly.gundogguy wrote: Wild birds train the pointy dog, Man has to train the Spaniel.
Re: cocker
My experience also.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
Re: cocker
Trials on Grouse moors or partridge have Rabbit or Hare as part of the quarry , it may not be the primary intended quarry, but if one is competing in such ground then 'train for it' .
The 'Cocker' is not as some would assume a 'Miniature Springer' . ? It as a breed has different hunting and tendencies acute to it's brethren ,those that hunt/train a Cocker Spaniel like they would a Springer Spaniel are 'fooled' by the dog and it's rightly so attitude to the trainer .
Personally I just 'Con them in to thinking they are doing the right thing ,when really they think they are doing the right thing'.
I once done a seminar with a cocker on stage at my side . I started the talk by saying '' A cocker is one of those individuals that when it does wrong in training , it say's ''I didn't mean to do that wrong, but I'm going to do it again anyway'' .
A calm handler/Trainer is a good match
The 'Cocker' is not as some would assume a 'Miniature Springer' . ? It as a breed has different hunting and tendencies acute to it's brethren ,those that hunt/train a Cocker Spaniel like they would a Springer Spaniel are 'fooled' by the dog and it's rightly so attitude to the trainer .
Personally I just 'Con them in to thinking they are doing the right thing ,when really they think they are doing the right thing'.
I once done a seminar with a cocker on stage at my side . I started the talk by saying '' A cocker is one of those individuals that when it does wrong in training , it say's ''I didn't mean to do that wrong, but I'm going to do it again anyway'' .
A calm handler/Trainer is a good match
Re: cocker
Thanks for the insights! One other question , are there preferred lines I should look for n vise visa stay away from ?
- CDN_Cocker
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Re: cocker
I'm going to take a different approach. I own a cocker and love hunting over him. We do it all from grouse and woodcock to ducks, geese and preserve pheasants. He suits me well as he is a Jack of all trades. But your concern comes from going from a pointer to a cocker, chiefly due to dwindling bird numbers. It is for that exact reason that I will say a pointing breed is much better. A cocker or other flusher will do the job but a pointing dog will do it better without expending as much energy. A cocker will hunt all out and if you don't have many birds in the area you hunt, the dog is just going to be wasting energy without reward. In areas with low bird numbers a pointer is going to outperform a flusher. I'm sure there will be people that disagree with my statement and I understand as I hunt over a cocker. I completely understand their capability. But I'm also not so thick that I do not appreciate their limitations either.
Cass
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr
Re: cocker
I completely agree with the above post ....."In areas with low bird numbers a pointer is going to outperform a flusher. "
Bill T.
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
Re: cocker
CDN and Trekmoor you guys are killing me:) I thought cocker would satisfy my criteria regarding size and the training because of lower bird numbers encountering these days. There aren't many pointing breeds that fall into size of cockers. Thanks for all the insights.
Re: cocker
Sorry if I have put you off the idea of getting a cocker but I have had cockers and brittanies and GSP's all at the same time so I know which of the breeds finds the most game in areas where game is sparse. I love the cocker breed, they are one of the best working breeds in the world but they aren't designed to cover lots of ground. They do best when the cover gets thicker and the game a bit more plentiful. The more "open" the ground is and the less plentiful the gamebirds the more the pointing breeds come into their own.
Bill T.
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
Re: cocker
AmenTrekmoor wrote:Sorry if I have put you off the idea of getting a cocker but I have had cockers and brittanies and GSP's all at the same time so I know which of the breeds finds the most game in areas where game is sparse. I love the cocker breed, they are one of the best working breeds in the world but they aren't designed to cover lots of ground. They do best when the cover gets thicker and the game a bit more plentiful. The more "open" the ground is and the less plentiful the gamebirds the more the pointing breeds come into their own.
Bill T.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
Re: cocker
Trekmoor wrote:Sorry if I have put you off the idea of getting a cocker but I have had cockers and brittanies and GSP's all at the same time so I know which of the breeds finds the most game in areas where game is sparse. I love the cocker breed, they are one of the best working breeds in the world but they aren't designed to cover lots of ground. They do best when the cover gets thicker and the game a bit more plentiful. The more "open" the ground is and the less plentiful the gamebirds the more the pointing breeds come into their own.
Bill T.
Consider a setter runt. Mine is 33 pounds and a star in the field. Runt does not mean less hunting skill nor slower.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: cocker
Hard to pick a specific pup that will grow up to be small as an adult (unless both parents are small). Brits as a breed, however, are generally smaller.Sharon wrote:Consider a setter runt. Mine is 33 pounds and a star in the field. Runt does not mean less hunting skill nor slower.
Re: cocker
If size is the criteria , then as mentioned earlier a Brittany , or depending on your Location a 'One size fits all' would be a ''Boykin'' . perhaps.bear57 wrote: I thought cocker would satisfy my criteria regarding size and the training because of lower bird numbers encountering these days. There aren't many pointing breeds that fall into size of cockers. Thanks for all the insights.
But, and there is always a 'But' . They ain't a pointer
Re: cocker
Even with my limited breeding experience( beagles and 1 setter) I have not found that to be so. Runts are obvious the moment they are born, and rarely if at all make up their size.Steve007 wrote:Hard to pick a specific pup that will grow up to be small as an adult (unless both parents are small). Brits as a breed, however, are generally smaller.Sharon wrote:Consider a setter runt. Mine is 33 pounds and a star in the field. Runt does not mean less hunting skill nor slower.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett