Force fetch questions

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Force fetch questions

Post by GHuff20ga » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:23 pm

I have a few questions regarding force fetch and other retrieving related question for those more knowledgeable than I about the subject. I have a 1.5-year-old GSP that has a fair amount of retrieving instinct, but she mouths the bumpers as she brings them in. On dead birds she will run out, bite the bird, and pick it up and carry it about 5-10’ and then drop it and run back to me. After a little reading it seems that people say force fetch should cure hard mouth for most dog. I purchased the Evan Graham ‘Smart Fetch’ DVD and have just started into that. The video is pretty lacking in instructions on teaching hold so I did some research on You Tube and found a few videos for that portion. So here are my questions:
1) I noticed that in Smart Fetch when he is working with his dogs he always has them in a ‘sit’ position. Is there any reason that ‘sitting’ the dog for training is better than using a table? (I have already started using a table.)
2) While I’m training force fetch, will it hurt or help progress to continue to play “fun fetch” in the yard with the check cord on? (i.e. throw the bumper and let her retrieve it with no commands or correction.)
3) Should I stop hunting her until the force fetching is finished? I would like to get her on as many birds as possible this season but I don't want to accidentally be reinforcing her bad habit of mouthing birds.

I’ve never force fetched a dog before so it’s all new and any of your help is quite appreciated!

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Dakotazeb » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:54 pm

1. I think you are just fine to continue on the table if that is how you started. Seems each FF method has a little different way.

2. I would not be playing "fun fetch" while doing FF.

3. If your FF program is going to overlap the hunting season I think you might be well served to discontinue FF until after the hunting season.

Just my thoughts. I'm sure others on here with more experience with FF will give you more advice.
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by duckn66 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:36 pm

You can throw fun bumpers during FF as long as they deliver to hand. If they are spitting it out then your defeating the purpose. I would not hunt the dog during FF.

Lots of different opinions on on FF. I like to end the FF session with something the dog knows and will succeed at. For a retriever it may be heeling, and sitting. In my opinion it helps with the attitude during the process.

Gonehunting on this forum is maybe the most knowledgeable person here on FF. See if he chimes in and if he does listen well.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:06 am

This post is from a forum I did it for about 10 years ago. It is a "stickY" overthere. North Dakota Outdoors, hunting dog forum.

Take a plank (2x10 or equivalent size plywood strip 8' long) and place it between two chairs. Many people make a regular bench, but for one dog it would be a waste of your time and money. Don't worry if pup doens't want to jump up on the bench; just pick him up and plunk him down there. Have a 1" collar and a leash on him.

You'll hold the lead in your left hand with about 1' of slack in it. Have a 1" wooden dowel in your left hand. I really like the one the dog supply houses sell because it's rough and kind of non slip. With your left hand, pinch the dogs upper gums against his canine teeth, say fetch, and when he opens up, PULL UP ON HIS LIPS to clear them of the canines and place the dowel in his mouth. With your right hand tap, not beat, under his chin to keep his nose pointed up and command "hold". Don't let him spit it out at first. If he gets beligerant, give him a light cuff and tell him NO, HOLD!. Make him sit quietly, nose in the air, and hold it. Now say DROP and remove it from his mouth. Do it again. And again and again and again until when you touch his lips and say "fetch", he opens up, takes the dowell, and quietly hold it, either sitting or standing. When he understands the drill, start tapping the dowel. You're daring him to drop it. If he does, pick it up, pinch his gums, and put it back it. He only drops when you tell him to, not when he wants to.

Before you start this, the dog should be totally obedience trained. When he does this perfectly, get him off the bench. Sit him on the ground by your side, hold the dowell in front of his nose and command "fetch". He won't understand and you'll have to start all over again with him on the ground. A dog is a place driven animal and has to learn commands in anew each time you change training places@ the bench, the yard, the field. Now when he starts taking and holding it without a problem, command "drop". He won't unless you pull it out of his mouth. Gently pivot your let toe over his right paw, softly step down, and command drop. He will. A dog's paw's are very tender so never, ever, get mad and stomp on them. Do this drill until the dog takes the dowel on command, holds it on command, and drops it IN YOUR HAND on command.

Now we have to get him moving. Command fetch, hold, and then heel. He'll imediately spit it out. Pick it up, pinch his gums, say fetch and heel him again. You'll eventuall win. He'll get mad, you'll get mad, but persevere and you'll be rewarded. When you can walk him at heel and he doesn't drop it, proceed to the next step. You guessed it; fetch, hold but now SIT. Walk 6' away from him, and command here or heel. A retriever should come to heel by coming to your left side, turning to his left, and sitting by your side, facing forward, holding the dowel firmly. When he does these drills enerringly, next step.

Now switch him to a training bumper and do it all over again.

He's nearly done now. Now we'll get him retrieving. Make it fun but you'll have to reinforce the drills. Have him on a 30' CC. Whoop it up and throw out a bumper, sending him immediately. As SOON As, The Very Instant, he picks it up, say HOLD and reel him gently in. You guessed it. If he spits it out, calmly walk out, and it's fetch, hold, heel, drop. This can take a long time since it is in no way a real force program. The only pressure really applied is the gum pinch. That's about it. When he's done on bumpers, you'll have to re-do it on birds. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Patience, patience, patience.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Timewise65 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:55 am

Good stuff in these posts....I love training my dogs, but I leave the FF to a pro....

I think it is a potential problem using U Tube to learn/ study FF. A lot of crazy wrong stuff on that....

Continue to find information from reliable sources.....

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:44 pm

I should explain the post I made. The forum moderator asked me to do a post on a gentler method of force fetch so that is what this post is about. On my own dog's I proceed to the ear and electric collar when the jowl is done to finish the process but make no mistake, if you don't want to get into FF problems, a dog can be ff'd on gums only and you will encounter far less problems. I does take more patience and takes longer.
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by GHuff20ga » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:52 pm

Thanks for the replies and all the good information guys.
1. I kind of figured that the table or sitting was just a personal preference but I just wondered. I think I’ll continue using the table
2. My pup does not consistently deliver to hand, (reason #2 that I’m starting her with FF) so I probably won’t play fetch in the yard until she is more dependable or collar conditioned to Fetch.
3. It seems the consensus is that hunting and FF training should probably not overlap.
So after some thought, I’ve decided to put FF training on hold until after my hunting season is over. I could be wrong, but I feel like getting her on wild birds is probably more important at this point in her development than having a beautifully finished retrieve. I’ve only gotten into ‘hold’ and ‘hold and carry’ so far, so I’m not very far along anyway. What are your thoughts on continuing to work on ‘hold’ and ‘hold and carry’ but not proceeding on to any pressure or the ‘fetch’ portion of the training while I hunt her this season?

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:52 pm

You don't seem to understand that every time a dog refuses a COMMAND, the dog has BEATEN and DEFIED you. I would stop the force, hunt her and simply not tell her to fetch or hold. Let her do what she does naturaly and correct it in the spring.
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by deseeker » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:06 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:You don't seem to understand that every time a dog refuses a COMMAND, the dog has BEATEN and DEFIED you. I would stop the force, hunt her and simply not tell her to fetch or hold. Let her do what she does naturaly and correct it in the spring.
I agree with this. Hunt her this Fall and fix it in the Spring. Good luck hunting this Fall :D

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by GHuff20ga » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:22 pm

Thanks for the help everyone. I'll stop the FF training and just enjoy the season! I'm sure I'll be back on here next spring looking for more advice next spring when I start training again.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Dakotazeb » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:56 am

In starting your FF or Trained Retrieve program how many sessions per day and how long are the sessions?
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:14 am

What a super post Gonehuntin'!
Just two subtleties that apply to your specific situation. If you're going to want your dog on birds for the season - and I get that - I suggest that you not say anything once you drop a bird. Ideally for now, go to the dead bird yourself and keep your dog from getting it, if possible. This will serve you later once you do the formal retrieve training.
The other item is, if you have been using the word, "Fetch" up until now, you have - albeit inadvertently - already taught your dog that "fetch" means this:
- you can go get the bird,
- mouth it,
- then drop the bird, (as it has done up until now).
All I'm suggesting is that you might want to use "dead bird" or something else other than the word fetch. Reassigning a new meaning to the word fetch is a lot harder now than using a new word for the formal uncompromised retrieve command.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:05 am

Featherfinder wrote:What a super post Gonehuntin'!
Just two subtleties that apply to your specific situation. If you're going to want your dog on birds for the season - and I get that - I suggest that you not say anything once you drop a bird. Ideally for now, go to the dead bird yourself and keep your dog from getting it, if possible. This will serve you later once you do the formal retrieve training.
The other item is, if you have been using the word, "Fetch" up until now, you have - albeit inadvertently - already taught your dog that "fetch" means this:
- you can go get the bird,
- mouth it,
- then drop the bird, (as it has done up until now).
All I'm suggesting is that you might want to use "dead bird" or something else other than the word fetch. Reassigning a new meaning to the word fetch is a lot harder now than using a new word for the formal uncompromised retrieve command.
Featherfinder has a IMPORTANT point. If you tell the dog to fetch a bird and it is unsuccessful, then he has defied you. There are three commands to FF and all have one and ONLY one, specific response.

FETCH implies motion, that the dog should move toward an object and pick it up. Fetch means get something in your mouth NOW. Used for any other purpose or when the dog is unsuccessful, diminishes the power of the command.

HOLD means to hold the object in the mouth, jaws unmoving, until commanded to release.

DROP means to open your mouth, place the object in the trainers hand, and back your head away.
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by nevermind » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:23 am

gonehuntin'
I'm giving your ff training a try on my Setter. I have him on the table and he's progressing. He hasn't dropped the dowel ever when given the hold command. The problem is getting him to release the dowel. I use "give" but he won't release unless I lift up his rear end and take the dowel from him. He doesn't chomp down on the dowel when I take it. Any ideas on how him to get him to release the dowel or just more reps with what I'm doing?

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Dakotazeb » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:29 am

Dakotazeb wrote:In starting your FF or Trained Retrieve program how many sessions per day and how long are the sessions?
Can someone please give me an answer to this question?
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:29 pm

2 10 to 15 minute sessions per day
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Dakotazeb » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:43 pm

ezzy333 wrote:2 10 to 15 minute sessions per day
Thank you. That's about what I was thinking.
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:14 pm

ezzy333 wrote:2 10 to 15 minute sessions per day
+1
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:21 pm

nevermind wrote:gonehuntin'
I'm giving your ff training a try on my Setter. I have him on the table and he's progressing. He hasn't dropped the dowel ever when given the hold command. The problem is getting him to release the dowel. I use "give" but he won't release unless I lift up his rear end and take the dowel from him. He doesn't chomp down on the dowel when I take it. Any ideas on how him to get him to release the dowel or just more reps with what I'm doing?
I never liked lifting the flank to get a release, you are switching pressure from one end of the dog to the other. I prefer to either command "DROP" and if the dog doesn't, pinch his upper jowls against his canine's, commanding drop. The second method is, if the dog is on the ground not a table, to GENTLY step on a front toe. Now, not only should the dog drop, he should open his mouth after you take the dowel and BACK HIS HEAD AWAY FROM YOUR HAND. This is an important step that many trainers overlook.

What you NEVER want to do is to PULL the object from the dog's mouth. Doing this can eventually lead to a dog that clamps his jaws on the bird and doesn't let go, commonly known as "freezing" or "clamming".
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by nevermind » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:26 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
nevermind wrote:gonehuntin'
I'm giving your ff training a try on my Setter. I have him on the table and he's progressing. He hasn't dropped the dowel ever when given the hold command. The problem is getting him to release the dowel. I use "give" but he won't release unless I lift up his rear end and take the dowel from him. He doesn't chomp down on the dowel when I take it. Any ideas on how him to get him to release the dowel or just more reps with what I'm doing?
I never liked lifting the flank to get a release, you are switching pressure from one end of the dog to the other. I prefer to either command "DROP" and if the dog doesn't, pinch his upper jowls against his canine's, commanding drop. The second method is, if the dog is on the ground not a table, to GENTLY step on a front toe. Now, not only should the dog drop, he should open his mouth after you take the dowel and BACK HIS HEAD AWAY FROM YOUR HAND. This is an important step that many trainers overlook.
Thank you for the helpful tips!
What you NEVER want to do is to PULL the object from the dog's mouth. Doing this can eventually lead to a dog that clamps his jaws on the bird and doesn't let go, commonly known as "freezing" or "clamming".
Thank you for the helpful tips!

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Featherfinder » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:21 am

One of the greatest differences between a novice trainer and an experienced one is knowing how to read a dog.
Sometimes, success for your particular dog may be a struggle especially when retrieve training. You might get to a certain stage with a minimum of challenge but suddenly your dog bulks the ensuing step. Persisting with this is the problem most often made. Some trainers take a very dominant stance thinking, "I'm the boss and he'll do this "bleep" step or....!" This can actually create a situation or prolong the desired result. Sometimes, although you had a plan in your mind (which you should ALWAYS have), it might not unfold just that way. Look at what YOU are doing that might create the hurdle. Look at ways to inject micro-steps to achieve the desired results. Sometimes, all you have to do is back off or revert to a previous step then repeat. I have seen me hit a brick wall Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and then all-of-a-sudden Saturday, the dog acts like, "Oh....yeah....no problem. I can do that." ?!?!?
How long you take is determined by you and your dog (progress or not) and can't always be set by a clock/watch. This is another example of why I don't believe you end training on a positive note. You don't have to get bent out of shape BUT your dog needs to understand that when he/she achieves a milestone, you are elated. When he gets stubborn (and not because he doesn't understand the expectation) you need to simply put him away. He already knows by your body language, "The boss isn't happy." Walk away - absolutely no verbal or eye contact. Tomorrow we start fresh!

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by setterpoint » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:14 pm

to keep it short use the table i think you have more control of the dog up off the ground..you will have to move to the ground sooner or later but the dog will be well on its way by then .it will be better on your back from the tableas i said i think the dog is in a more complying mood off the ground

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:36 pm

Question: What size bumper (generally speaking, I know there are variations) is best to start with? I ordered some, but they seem to be huge. My dog typically has a good "take" but is balking at these, and I think it's because of the size. He's an 18 month old golden retriever. Thanks!

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:13 pm

Start him on an inch and a half wooden dowel then progress to the white, plastic knobby bumpers, about 1 1/2- 2' around.
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:47 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Start him on an inch and a half wooden dowel then progress to the white, plastic knobby bumpers, about 1 1/2- 2' around.
Thanks! He's good on the dowels (and towels, basket handles, anything I ask him to hold and carry) but not the bumpers I got. I believe they seem to be larger than 2' somehow. I'll check and adjust the size accordingly.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:22 pm

One thing I never use is a plastic bumper. If you hold one near your face, you can actually smell the plastic odor. Dogs have X times are sense of smell we do so just think what they smell!?!
I would do as Gonehuntin' suggests but I would use a canvas fabric bumper in place of the plastic. You'd be surprised how many dogs bulk the plastic bumpers but jump at the canvas.
I'm not getting into, "I'm the boss and he'll hold what I decide!" There's a time and a place.........
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Higgins » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:40 am

Hello GHuff20ga,

I don't think you need to put your dog through force fetch to encourage a nice retrieve. Encouraging a natural retrieve is easier and faster and you don't lose your dog's trust. Here are a couple of links to videos. They show some of the things I do to help the young pups learn to share their birds. When you watch the videos, be sure to read the text too.

https://youtu.be/_El738eNjl8
https://youtu.be/wIhuFnts9Uw

Hope it helps.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:03 pm

This is a force fetch thread , a subject about which I know very little so won't comment on it. What I will say is that for most people and most gundogs you are taking a long way round for a "shortcut." I long ago lost count of the number of gundog pups , my own and other peoples, that I made into keen , reliable retrievers just by building on their own "natural retrieve."

I expect my dogs, spaniels, labs or various members of the Hunt-point-retrieve breeds to pick up and bring back to me any of the more usual gamebirds found in Britain. About the only birds my dogs have not retrieved are ptarmigan and capercaillie .

Bumpers ..... if you are having a problem with a particular kind of bumper, don't force the issue or you could end up having to train f.f.
Use something the pup likes to begin with then change to something similar to that but with a different weight or a different texture.
Don't hesitate to use what is often a pup's favourite thing ..... an old ,smelly sock stuffed with cloth to form a roughly bumper shaped object ......then build on the pup's ever increasing willingness to play with/retrieve that "bumper."

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by polmaise » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:17 pm

Force Fetch has absolutely nothing to do with a retrieve !

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:04 pm

I'm glad you guys are saying it. I've trained plenty of dogs for performance, though in other venues besides hunting. The concept of force fetch seems counterintuitive to me and I've been doing reading and studying of it, trying to get a grasp on understanding the concept. I get the reasoning, but I feel that, in practice, it would be counterproductive and destructive of the relationship with my dog. I'm sure it has it's place, as plenty of successful people have used it, but I'm glad I shouldn't necessarily feel like I have to do it in order to have a great gundog.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by polmaise » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:20 pm

Fozzie's Mom wrote:I'm glad you guys are saying it. I've trained plenty of dogs for performance, though in other venues besides hunting. The concept of force fetch seems counterintuitive to me and I've been doing reading and studying of it, trying to get a grasp on understanding the concept. I get the reasoning, but I feel that, in practice, it would be counterproductive and destructive of the relationship with my dog. I'm sure it has it's place, as plenty of successful people have used it, but I'm glad I shouldn't necessarily feel like I have to do it in order to have a great gundog.
Go visit a 'recognised professional trainer on FF'' and see if it fits with your understanding of it ,rather than your perception of it ?

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Fozzie's Mom » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:37 pm

polmaise wrote:
Fozzie's Mom wrote:I'm glad you guys are saying it. I've trained plenty of dogs for performance, though in other venues besides hunting. The concept of force fetch seems counterintuitive to me and I've been doing reading and studying of it, trying to get a grasp on understanding the concept. I get the reasoning, but I feel that, in practice, it would be counterproductive and destructive of the relationship with my dog. I'm sure it has it's place, as plenty of successful people have used it, but I'm glad I shouldn't necessarily feel like I have to do it in order to have a great gundog.
Go visit a 'recognised professional trainer on FF'' and see if it fits with your understanding of it ,rather than your perception of it ?
Good suggestion, and I may do that at some point, but I don't think I'm necessarily at a point where I feel I should. I've only just run into some trouble with these big bumpers, and I think it's just the hard plastic combined with large diameter. I have a good "take," "fetch," and "release." I'd been looking into ff because I got the impression I "should."
I'd been working with a trainer that I really trust and has had great success with his and his clients' dogs. . . . .but we got about 1 1/2 months in before he left to go south for the winter. :roll: I've been doing the homework he left me with, but am just looking to learn and sponge as much knowledge as possible up in the meantime before he returns so I'm not quite the newbie when he gets back. I'm really enjoying seeing all the differnt methods.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by polmaise » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:13 pm

Fozzie's Mom wrote: I'd been working with a trainer that I really trust and has had great success with his and his clients' dogs.
Probably best to wait and see the trainer ,even if it's a while ..while you do the homework set . :)

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by JONOV » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:35 am

Fozzie's Mom wrote:I'm glad you guys are saying it. I've trained plenty of dogs for performance, though in other venues besides hunting. The concept of force fetch seems counterintuitive to me and I've been doing reading and studying of it, trying to get a grasp on understanding the concept. I get the reasoning, but I feel that, in practice, it would be counterproductive and destructive of the relationship with my dog. I'm sure it has it's place, as plenty of successful people have used it, but I'm glad I shouldn't necessarily feel like I have to do it in order to have a great gundog.
The opposite has been true in my experience. Much closer, trusting relationship post-FF.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:11 am

polmaise wrote:Force Fetch has absolutely nothing to do with a retrieve !
Maybe you should expand on that Robert ..... a newbie could and probably would take the wrong meaning from it ! :D

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Higgins » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:13 am

We have to be careful not to confuse obedience with trust. Trust is based on free will, obedience is not. I think it's better to nurture and promote natural cooperation being careful not to replace it with obedience.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:52 pm

Trekmoor wrote:
polmaise wrote:Force Fetch has absolutely nothing to do with a retrieve !
Maybe you should expand on that Robert ..... a newbie could and probably would take the wrong meaning from it ! :D

Bill T.
Probably a better strategy would be to adopt 'DF' rather than 'FF' .

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:14 pm

O.K. , I will ask ....what does DF mean ?

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:23 pm

Trekmoor wrote:O.K. , I will ask ....what does DF mean ?

Bill T.
Desire Fetch . :lol: It's the same only sounds nicer :wink:
Watch them fingers ! lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwrcNqBqweg

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:25 pm

Higgins wrote:We have to be careful not to confuse obedience with trust. Trust is based on free will, obedience is not. I think it's better to nurture and promote natural cooperation being careful not to replace it with obedience.

Higgins
This is exactly right.
I had three AKC Master titled dogs before I learned you could not title a dog without a force retrieve.
Ever since I was a little kid my dogs have always brought me everything they find when we are hunting and I have never had one blink a retrieve. I have bought dogs that were force fetched that had very nice retrieves, but I have always preferred natural over robot and I have seen some brutal methods of force fetch.
I like to breed natural retrieve. Most dogs seem to have it if it is nurtured.............................CJ

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by polmaise » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:12 pm

cjhills wrote: I like to breed natural retrieve. Most dogs seem to have it if it is nurtured.............................CJ
Force Fetch is absolutely nothing to do with a retrieve.
and btw , there is also no such thing as a natural retrieve and you certainly can't breed for for it ! You got one thing right . You definitely can nurture it

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:45 pm

I agree that an entire retrieve sequence is not a natural thing. All the same, before I buy a pup I like to see it run out to a small , lightweight thrown object then pick it up and carry it about for a wee while. If a pup will do that then I can train it the rest of the retrieve sequence.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:57 pm

To run to an object and pick it up shows retrieving desire. To retrieve that object to hand is training. FF does two things: It sets up how a dog will learn and it gives the dog a clean delivery. What it will never do is make a good retriever out of a dog with no retrieving desire.
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by cjhills » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:49 pm

polmaise wrote:
cjhills wrote: I like to breed natural retrieve. Most dogs seem to have it if it is nurtured.............................CJ
Force Fetch is absolutely nothing to do with a retrieve.
and btw , there is also no such thing as a natural retrieve and you certainly can't breed for for it ! You got one thing right . You definitely can nurture it
I suppose you are probably right since you know way more about technical terms and training than I do. It seems to me if I throw a dummy or shoot a bird and the pup runs out and gets it and brings it back to me with no training that would be a natural retrieve. It also seems if all the puppies in a litter do that as well as their mother and father doing it when they were puppies and several generations I know of doing it I would call that breeding for a natural retrieve.
Now you may see it differently or call it something else, but it will take a lot to convince me that it is not natural................Cj

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by polmaise » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:20 am

I doubt it cj...... :lol:
Almost every puppy no matter the breeding if you threw something it was interested in , it would 'Chase' it :wink: Bringing it back to the place it came from would a natural thing to do.
So those that choose a single puppy from a litter on the sole basis of one pup doing this and the others not, would be saying the others have not been bred for this ? :roll: :mrgreen: lol

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by cjhills » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:30 am

polmaise wrote:I doubt it cj...... :lol:
Almost every puppy no matter the breeding if you threw something it was interested in , it would 'Chase' it :wink: Bringing it back to the place it came from would a natural thing to do.
So those that choose a single puppy from a litter on the sole basis of one pup doing this and the others not, would be saying the others have not been bred for this ? :roll: :mrgreen: lol
Not talking about a 8 week old puppy running to a dummy.
I am saying a dog with no retrieve training that will run and pick up the first bird shot over him and quietly and gently retrieve it to hand or digs up a frozen dog
turd( the biggest prize there is to this dog) on a minus 20 f morning and brings it to me because he wants to share it, Has a natural retrieve and I have bred the dogs that do that. It is what I want my pointing dogs to do. It is also something that is disappearing out of GSPs. It may not continue without nurturing, but if it is there to start with. I think it is natural.
I know nothing about retrievers so there very well may be much more involved.........Cj

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by JONOV » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:41 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:To run to an object and pick it up shows retrieving desire. To retrieve that object to hand is training. FF does two things: It sets up how a dog will learn and it gives the dog a clean delivery. What it will never do is make a good retriever out of a dog with no retrieving desire.
In retrospect, I think that the term "force fetch" is a bit of a misnomer. It isn't about the fetch, its about the delivery. In my extremely limited experience, its much more about nailing down the "hold" for a solid delivery.

How many puppies or dogs that go hunting five times a year are able to go into cover or a marsh and bring come out with a bird? Quite a few of them. Most of them, probably. You'll get your bird back, though there may be some keep away or you might have to walk a little to get it. I've hunted with more than a few mostly untrained labs that were perfectly fine in getting birds that we couldn't get to or would have a bear of a time getting to or would have had to get in a boat for.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:59 pm

JONOV wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:To run to an object and pick it up shows retrieving desire. To retrieve that object to hand is training. FF does two things: It sets up how a dog will learn and it gives the dog a clean delivery. What it will never do is make a good retriever out of a dog with no retrieving desire.
In retrospect, I think that the term "force fetch" is a bit of a misnomer. It isn't about the fetch, its about the delivery. In my extremely limited experience, its much more about nailing down the "hold" for a solid delivery.

How many puppies or dogs that go hunting five times a year are able to go into cover or a marsh and bring come out with a bird? Quite a few of them. Most of them, probably. You'll get your bird back, though there may be some keep away or you might have to walk a little to get it. I've hunted with more than a few mostly untrained labs that were perfectly fine in getting birds that we couldn't get to or would have a bear of a time getting to or would have had to get in a boat for.
You do make them fetch against their will than force them back to a pile. That's where the term came from.
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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by polmaise » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:44 pm

JONOV wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:To run to an object and pick it up shows retrieving desire. (No it doesn't imo , it shows desire to chase, the very essence of which we use in retriever training to achieve what we do in training )
To retrieve that object to hand is training.(True , but it's a natural thing to come back , but getting that in your hand does take conditioning as they all 'dogs' want to hold on to waht they chased and caught for themselves)
FF does two things: It sets up how a dog will learn and it gives the dog a clean delivery. What it will never do is make a good retriever out of a dog with no retrieving desire.
(FF SET'S UP HOW A DOG WILL LEARN WHAT?) , (A clean delivery ?, do you mean FF will actually in it's two entirety's will present a bird with no mouthing issues?)

In retrospect, I think that the term "force fetch" is a bit of a misnomer. (I agree it should be called 'Desire Hold' )
It isn't about the fetch, its about the delivery. In my extremely limited experience, its much more about nailing down the "hold" for a solid delivery.
I'm claiming the franchise on 'Desired Hold' :wink: ..It's much more pc these days and nobody better market this like a wonder lead or a program dvd for re-sale.

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Re: Force fetch questions

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:56 pm

When I say it sets up "how a dog will learn", I mean how it learns everything. It establishes you as the dog's master and he is taught that no matter what HE wants to do, he has to submit to your command. Be it, FF, obedience, whatever. He learns that HAS to submit to your will and he WILL for the rest of his life.
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