Questions on Training

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GSP FNG
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Questions on Training

Post by GSP FNG » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

I’ve been searching on this forum and elsewhere for answers to some questions I have. I’ve yet to answer them all so what better place to ask them then here. I have a 7 month old GSP, who for the last 4 months, has not been able to grasp the concept of pulling on the lead. Maybe I am the one who is not utilizing the lead correctly.

I’ve tried standing still until he stops he stops pulling and not moving. It use to take a while for him to stop but now it improves with still minor issues. He'll stop, we proceed to take one step, he pulls or it happens three steps and then he pulls. It tends to not show any pattern. If he doesn't get his way, he will dig in, pull with everything he has, stops and pitches a fit by barking and whining. I've tried standing still like a tree, waiting for him to stop and look at me, walking backwards and directional changes. I’ve come face to face with this breeds craftiness and he’s only getting better and I'm beginning to grow impatient. I play fetch with him 15 minutes a day twice a day, silent command training alone and assisted with verbal twice a day for 5 to 10 minutes and walked 2 to 3 miles a day or 1 to 2 hour terrain training and 1/2 to 1 mile walk in the evening. I'm a Veteran whose wife is in the Army and I have access to 75,000 acres of land full with a wide variety of bird species. I've self trained my pup and have hit a brick wall with this one issue.

I’ve allowed this to go on because I was uneducated until I found this forum and had begun reading Delmar Smith's book. In order to stay one step ahead, I’m ordering tomorrow a lsc better stakeout. I've read that this is only temporary and not a permanent fix but one that will get the ball rolling. I have a blaze orange gun dog supply collar with the O ring but would like to know if a different collar is required for lead walking and the stakeout? The weather is getting cold in Kansas and is fluctuating between 25 and 60 degrees. Is there a recommend warming layer for my pup for leash walking and is it a good idea for it to be worn on the stakeout? He's also pitching fits by whining, starring at us, cuttin' eyes at us, going to my wife if I give no or off command and then she gives the same one and back and forth.

I know this is a lot but I figured 1 post with multiple questions is like 1 shot 2 kills. Any advice given would be appreciated.
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Meller
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Re: Questions on Training

Post by Meller » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:32 am

Where are you located, what State?
Have you tried a half hitch on the flank, or pinch collar? Both these will curb the pulling, till dog gets the hint.

GSP FNG
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Re: Questions on Training

Post by GSP FNG » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:59 am

I’m located in Kansas. I have not tried a half hitch on flank for I do not know what that is and isn’t a pinch collar used for on a whoooah post or heeling?
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Re: Questions on Training

Post by cjhills » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:10 pm

You need to get this dog to learn to give to pressure. Short periods on the stake will help. Get 3/8 solid core check cord 15 or 20 ft long. You can get this from LCS also. Around $20. pull the dog toward you as quick as he responds release the pressure. when he stops tug again. Do this several times a day for short periods. He will eventually learn that pressure releases when he gives in to it. Give short tugs not steady pulls. Remember it takes two to have a pulling contest. When he learns to give to pressure you have pretty much established the basis for all training. A gentle leader works quiet well and some people really like the wonder lead. Personally I do not have a lot of luck with it and most of my training is done with no leash starting in the yard. When you start to use a command don't give the command when the dog is in the position. Don't give the sit command when the dog is standing or the heel command when the dog is not in the heel position.
Don't expect the dog with no yard training in the yard to walk quietly on a leash in the field.You have trained this dog to pull and it may take a while to untrain it.
A heeling stick works very well, but that is another story.
You do not need anything tom keep the dog warm accept his fur. we routinely run our dogs in 20 below zero weather with no issues accept cold feet. The dogs and mine......................Cj

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ezzy333
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Re: Questions on Training

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:47 pm

I would suggest that you look at Gundog Supply for any equipment you need.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by Sharon » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:55 pm

" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by shags » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:03 pm

If you're reading Delmar's book and like it, I'd suggest going a step further with Rick/Ronnie Smith's Silent Command System.
You'll learn about the stakeout for giving to pressure, the Figure 8 for the barking, the Wonder Lead for walking with you. Then you'll have info on the whoa post, forced retrieve, and beyond.

That dog has your number and the SCS will help you to gain control. I like the method because it's very calm, no yelling, no jerking the dog around. Basically, you learn to teach your dog 3 things - Go with me, come to to me, and stop. That's the basis of all field training.

Check Youtube for videos on using the the stakeout, wonder lead, and figure 8. If you can swing it, sign up for a seminar. They're a little pricey but worth every nickle. I attended one years ago that Rick ran, and there were a couple dogs there that acted much like you describe yours. I can tell you that by the end of the weekend, those dogs were very much improved. They went from raging barbarians who had no discipline at all, to pretty well behaved - walking on lead, not barking on the stakeout, etc.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by cjhills » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:32 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I would suggest that you look at Gundog Supply for any equipment you need.
And why is that? They both sell the same thing, for the same price..............Cj

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by polmaise » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:39 pm

Perhaps it's the technique and timing of application ,rather than the Tool that should be looked for?

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:25 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I would suggest that you look at Gundog Supply for any equipment you need.
And why is that? They both sell the same thing, for the same price..............Cj
And one of them has spent a lot of money to supply you with a forum to use free and without any interference from them. They have never even suggested we should be paying for a service like this.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by Settertude » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:32 pm

I agree--they are great people to do business with and also have top notch products and service.
Outstanding, actually.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by cjhills » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:40 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I would suggest that you look at Gundog Supply for any equipment you need.
And why is that? They both sell the same thing, for the same price..............Cj
And one of them has spent a lot of money to supply you with a forum to use free and without any interference from them. They have never even suggested we should be paying for a service like this.

Ezzy
Thing is the OP Stated he was ordering stakes From LCS. I merely suggested he could add a checkcord to his order.
I have been a long time customer of LCS and have always had very good service from them, plus they sell pigeon supplies.I see no reason to change.
I thank Gun Dog Supply for sponsoring the Forum. But I did not think it required members to buy their products........Cj

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by GSP FNG » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:56 pm

cjhills: My apologies. Set aside from the valuable information you've provided, the reason my methods were applied was because I was informed by trainers and others alike in this forum from reading replies on posts, that these were correct methods. I thought you were suppose to do longer intervals on the stakeout, wear himself out, check up on him and if doesn't greet you, go back indoors. My apologies for sounding condescending, but I'm quite confused by Delmar's method, your advice and others in the entirety of this forum. I'm confused by the suggestion of getting a check cord and the way you're recommending to use it when you've stated that "it takes two to have a pulling contest". I'd be doing the same exact thing by walking backwards with a 6ft leash. Are wonder leads used for walking or for heeling training? This guy Delmar Smith is suppose to be the, I don't like to say this, God of gundog training, stated in his book on pg. 35 "And don't start yard work till the pups a year to a year and a half old. Let him have that year of self-huntin'. A full year of roaming with zest and fun". Thank you for your advice, input and answer on what to keep pup warm. I hope I didn't come off rude. What I instill in my pup, I have to vet information before I act upon it. The only reason why I enforced methods I was using was because I read them on multiple sites, including this one.

ezzy333: Thank you for your advice. You'll be glad to hear that I ordered the LSC Better Stakeout and previously a blaze orange collar with nameplate.

Sharon: Thanks for the tip on the Wonder Lead. I've watched videos on it and are blown away. Just struggling when to implement it.

Shags: I actually just looked at the SCS, because of your post, more in depth and after reading descriptions on the training package, I'm pleased. I'm more of an auditory and visual learner. I was also raised in the North, have been exposed to different dialects in the English language but just get hung up on some sentences in Delmar's book. I'm going to look deeper into the seminars. I had some trouble putting two and two together on their website but I bet it would be amazing. Pup sure does have my number. He knows it and I know it. Time to get it back.

Polmaise: That was a vital statement made and I'd like to hear further clarification on it please.

Hey I appreciate ya'll for ya'lls post replies. I'm grateful for your time and input.
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Re: Questions on Training

Post by shags » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:35 am

GSP FNG,

Walking on a lead *is* heeling. Keep in mind that there are degrees of that - you can train for glued-to-your-leg military precision, or you can be satisfied with your dog walking along in a certain perimeter. That's up to you. You can choose to have him sit when you stop , but not many birddoggers go there, choosing for the dog to stand quietly instead.

I think you have your stakeout idea backward. For giving to pressure, I believe Delmar and the guys use a chain gang. The dogs all bounce around, getting tugged by the other dogs, until they learn to be still thus avoiding discomfort. When you use a stakeout, you let the dog carry on ( minus the barking, that's what a Figure 8 is for) and when he is quiet and settled you approach. If he gets wound up when you approach, you back off. Rinse and repeat until the dog is settled and quiet, tthen you release him. He learns that idiocy and shenanigans get him nowhere, and that being a gentleman gets him off the chain. It takes patience, so keep on mind Rick's golden words "It takes as long as it takes".

There is a beginner SCS dvd around, if you have a device to play it :P IMO it's more clear if you've attended a seminar before you view it because you'll better understand the background, but it illustrates the methods on the basic work.

I think people misinterpret Delmar's comment about letting a pup be a pup, or else his wording misleads his readers. He means don't go out and try to break a pup to big dog standards. It doesn't mean to let him go wild and be a bratty undisciplined companion. I saw and heard this at the seminar I attended - two guys with GSPs di exactly that. Their year old dogs were not even housebroken because they thought they should never correct a pup or say No! Those dogs were total barbarians. I can't say they didn't poop in the house after the seminar, but they did walk nicely on their WLs, and they were quiet on the stakeout.

Good luck to you...remember it's a process, so enjoy it.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:56 am

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I would suggest that you look at Gundog Supply for any equipment you need.

And one of them has spent a lot of money to supply you with a forum to use free and without any interference from them. They have never even suggested we should be paying for a service like this.

Ezzy
Thing is the OP Stated he was ordering stakes From LCS. I merely suggested he could add a checkcord to his order.
I have been a long time customer of LCS and have always had very good service from them, plus they sell pigeon supplies.I see no reason to change.
I thank Gun Dog Supply for sponsoring the Forum. But I did not think it required members to buy their products........Cj
[/quote]

Of course you are right CJ, absolutely no requirement. I just made note of what would be a reasonable jester since I have always thought that it is reasonable to help someone who has gone out of their way to help you. Kind of a common sense type jester on our part. Sorry I had to explain it.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by cjhills » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:53 am

GSP FNG wrote:cjhills: My apologies. Set aside from the valuable information you've provided, the reason my methods were applied was because I was informed by trainers and others alike in this forum from reading replies on posts, that these were correct methods. I thought you were suppose to do longer intervals on the stakeout, wear himself out, check up on him and if doesn't greet you, go back indoors. My apologies for sounding condescending, but I'm quite confused by Delmar's method, your advice and others in the entirety of this forum. I'm confused by the suggestion of getting a check cord and the way you're recommending to use it when you've stated that "it takes two to have a pulling contest". I'd be doing the same exact thing by walking backwards with a 6ft leash. Are wonder leads used for walking or for heeling training? This guy Delmar Smith is suppose to be the, I don't like to say this, God of gundog training, stated in his book on pg. 35 "And don't start yard work till the pups a year to a year and a half old. Let him have that year of self-huntin'. A full year of roaming with zest and fun". Thank you for your advice, input and answer on what to keep pup warm. I hope I didn't come off rude. What I instill in my pup, I have to vet information before I act upon it. The only reason why I enforced methods I was using was because I read them on multiple sites, including this one.

ezzy333: Thank you for your advice. You'll be glad to hear that I ordered the LSC Better Stakeout and previously a blaze orange collar with nameplate.

Sharon: Thanks for the tip on the Wonder Lead. I've watched videos on it and are blown away. Just struggling when to implement it.

Shags: I actually just looked at the SCS, because of your post, more in depth and after reading descriptions on the training package, I'm pleased. I'm more of an auditory and visual learner. I was also raised in the North, have been exposed to different dialects in the English language but just get hung up on some sentences in Delmar's book. I'm going to look deeper into the seminars. I had some trouble putting two and two together on their website but I bet it would be amazing. Pup sure does have my number. He knows it and I know it. Time to get it back.

Polmaise: That was a vital statement made and I'd like to hear further clarification on it please.

Hey I appreciate ya'll for ya'lls post replies. I'm grateful for your time and input.
GSP FNG
First there is certainly no need to apologize to me. If you disagree with me or don't understand what I am saying that is fine with me.
My main point is you now have a problem dog mostly of your own making. he has learned to control you. You have to learn how to change his behavior. This is easy for Somebody who has been doing it for years. Not so easy with a first dog.
All dogs need to be trained to walk quietly on a leash if that is what you want him to do.They will not do it naturally.
I put the pup on a stakeout for short periods to teach him to give to pressure on his neck. While I would prefer that he stands quietly I don't wait until he does. I take him off when I want to. He has already learn this in crate training. If you just leave him and let him howl, it just makes his anxiety worse. I just walk around the yard a bit and and take him off.
I put on the check cord. You want a stiff cord for this. That is why i suggest the solid cord. With tug and release pull him to you. No command just pull and release if he resist by laying down drag him. But always tug and release.
this will take a few lessons, it took awhile for him yo learn to pull. but if he learns it well it will be the basis for all training. if you use tug and release in your training and on walks he will get it. it might be more jerk and release to start with, but not steady pulling. you are stronger than him now. so you will win. Some of the leads that are on the market make thinks easier, but they are all gimmicks. Almost all our training is with no leash on a dog we start as a puppy. it will work pulling won't and gimmicks might...Cj

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by polmaise » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:34 am

GSP FNG wrote: Polmaise: That was a vital statement made and I'd like to hear further clarification on it please.
I don't believe that 'Timing' between an individual dog and individual handler on a forum or any other on-line medium can be conveyed or instructed.
When I owned a dog training centre and pet store, Petsmart superstore was 500 metres away from me.
They had the same dog leads for sale at £5 that I sold for £20 . I sold 10 times more leads than they did.
Mine came with a session on how to use it with the dog and handler.
Last edited by polmaise on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:17 am

I know I'm coming to this discussion a bit late, but I have a heeling suggestion for you.

First, get a copy of Paul long's book "Training Pointing dogs" . It explains the process far, far better than I ever could.

Then, get a Delmar Smith wonder lead, or if you are a cheapskate like me, a 6-7 ft. pigging string.

The Long book says to use a looped checkcord. I suggest the wonder lead because it has a feature that the looped checkcord does not have. The wonder lead is a waxed lead which has a spring action. The spring action allows the handler to have perfect timing, because the dog controls whether or not the loop closes and puts pressure on. If you keep your hand in the same position, with the loop high on the neck, just behind the ears and "just" contacting the dog, with the lead "just" making contact with the lightest of pressure You are set. When the dog surges forward or goes away from your knee...the loop closes and puts pressure on the dog. The more the dog surges...the tighter the loop closes. If the dog returns to the correct position, even for an instant... the loop instantly opens relieving the pressure.

This instant response of the lead teaches the dog that it is in control of whether or not it gets choked. Even the most stubborn dog figures out that it is walking quietly by your side allows it to breathe regularly. It teaches the dog that it is in control of whether or not it gets choked. Most learn fairly quickly.

I start all my pups on this type of lead at about 4-5 months. I do a session in the AM when I am out cleaning the kennels and another session in the evening when feeding. Each session takes about five to ten minutes.

By the time the pup is a year old, it is walking quietly by my side, without a lead.

Oh FWIW, the kind of pups I work with are horseback field trial prospects that are about as physically and mentally strong and independent. If it works for that kind of dog...it'll work for whatever you have.

RayG

PS - Paul Long's book is a very easy read and very straightforward. Lots of good info. "Training with MO" is another good easy read with a somewhat different approach, but also very informative. Both are very inexpensive and every pointing dog trainer should have them in their library.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by setterpoint » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:22 am

try this when the dog starts pulling give the leash a quick jerk and turn and go in the op.direction the dog will go to the front when dog starts pulling jerk and turn go in diff direction after you do this awhile you will see the dog start paying more att. to you when this happends walk and when the dog starts to move ahead jerk change direction do this ever 25ft or so

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by GSP FNG » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:51 am

I’m tracking on all the knowledgeable information and advice that is being provided but on the same note respectfully, I’m getting an overload to my brain. If someone is up to or willing for a phone to phone conversation I would really appreciate it. I’m available all day long. Thanks.
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Re: Questions on Training

Post by GSP FNG » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:54 am

I’ve known I was in deep water months ago and have been struggling to punch my way out of a paper bag.
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Re: Questions on Training

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:53 am

Your problem is so simple. At 7 months a pinch collar will end your woes and so will a heeling still. Either one will do the trick in a couple of sessions.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by Steve007 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:23 pm

A pinch collar would certainly work. though so would quite a few other tools over time. But you'll get a more comprehensive method of training your dog for all-around civilized behavior by investing three bucks for a used copy of Bill Koehler's classic book.

https://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method-D ... ds=koehler

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by Sharon » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:31 pm

[quote="GSP FNG"]

Sharon: Thanks for the tip on the Wonder Lead. I've watched videos on it and are blown away. Just struggling when to implement it.

.........................................

Now :)
Never used a pinch collar, but gonehuntin' is much more knowledgeable that I am.

PS If you ever get a chance to go to a Rick or Ronnie Smith seminar go! Expensive , but worth every penny.
Google it in the New Year and see if one is in your State or nearby.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Questions on Training

Post by polmaise » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:13 pm

Sharon wrote:
GSP FNG wrote:
Sharon: Thanks for the tip on the Wonder Lead. I've watched videos on it and are blown away. Just struggling when to implement it.

.........................................

Now :)
Never used a pinch collar, but gonehuntin' is much more knowledgeable that I am.
I think he/she said 'Wonder lead' .Not pinch collar Sharon ? ..and relating to 'Timing' ? .lol ..Just saying.

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