New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

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SaskStallion
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New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by SaskStallion » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:12 am

Hi All. I'm new to Gun Dog training, and have a few questions on training our 4 month old WPG.
We are working on the standard obedience right now (sit, down, come, heel etc.).
A few questions have come up regarding how to start him with bird training:
1) We don't have access to birds, but have some wings and dummies that we have acquired. How should we start him on these?
2) He is a timid dog. How long should we wait before introducing .22 cal gunfire, and what is the best way to do this?
3) With him being timid, should we be skeptical of him becoming a decent hunting partner ?
4) How often should we be doing bird training at this age?

Here are some other questions we have that are non-hunting related:
1) We are working with him using a training collar (ie: choke chain style) and he seems to always want to pull during walks. Any ideas on getting him out of this behavior?
2) His training collar is cutting/wearing off the hair on his neck. Is this normal? Will his Griffon-like hair be ruined as a result of this? Is there something we can do to still enforce commands without this happening?

Thanks in advance for all of the help! As I'm new to this forum, I apologize if I'm not following the required format/protocol etc. I hear that this is a great resource for help, so I'm excited to see what people have to say!

RayGubernat
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Re: New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:32 pm

SaskStallion wrote:Hi All. I'm new to Gun Dog training, and have a few questions on training our 4 month old WPG.
We are working on the standard obedience right now (sit, down, come, heel etc.).
A few questions have come up regarding how to start him with bird training:
1) We don't have access to birds, but have some wings and dummies that we have acquired. How should we start him on these?
2) He is a timid dog. How long should we wait before introducing .22 cal gunfire, and what is the best way to do this?
3) With him being timid, should we be skeptical of him becoming a decent hunting partner ?
4) How often should we be doing bird training at this age?

Here are some other questions we have that are non-hunting related:
1) We are working with him using a training collar (ie: choke chain style) and he seems to always want to pull during walks. Any ideas on getting him out of this behavior?
2) His training collar is cutting/wearing off the hair on his neck. Is this normal? Will his Griffon-like hair be ruined as a result of this? Is there something we can do to still enforce commands without this happening?

Thanks in advance for all of the help! As I'm new to this forum, I apologize if I'm not following the required format/protocol etc. I hear that this is a great resource for help, so I'm excited to see what people have to say!
1 - short answer ...You should not. Wings and dummies are for retrieving and that is about all. They have no place in training a bird dog to seek and point birds.

2 - The best time(and the best way) to introduce gunfire is when the dog is fifty yards or more from you and in full chase of a bird that is flying away.

3- I cannot answer that. I have seen dogs that appeared to be timid to turn into bird finding machines and I have seen dogs that appeared to be bold... to fold like a house of cards when put under pressure. A lot depends on 1) how badly the dog wants to wrap its gums around a bird(which is genetic) and 2) how successfully the trainer conveys the required training to the dog.

4 - My dogs don't see birds until they are about 7or 8 months of age...typically. I may fly a pigeon or two for the dog, just to see how wound up it gets or plant a bird if I want to see if the dog has a decent nose, but I very much prefer to get the yardwork portion of the dog's training well along before I introduce birds. At four months of age, I would be doing "come in" drills and heel whoa drills(after the manner of Paul Long, but using a Smith wonder lead). Others use a "buddy stick" instead of the wonder lead, but I never learned to use it, so I stick with what I know.

Anyhow, when the dog is heeling and stopping, fairly reliably... off lead, and when I can stop the dog and then walk out in front and simulate a flush, it is getting to be the time to introduce birds. I think it is prudent to install the brakes and the steering in a race car before you take it out onto the track. Less wrecks that way. Same thing with dog training. The fact that the dog knows, understands and respects the obedience commands will go a long way toward successful bird introduction and the subsequent training.

non hunting questions:
1- You can use the same wonder lead techniques to teach the dog that it must heel quietly at your knee. Alternatively, for right now, you can attach the leash to a flat collar and then put a half hitch in the leash with the hitch going around the dog's waist. When it pulls, the hitch tightens around the dog's belly. They don't like that very much, so they quit pulling.

2 - I am not a fan of choker type collars in general. I think it is fairly common for choker type collars to rub hair off dogs, not just wires, but any dog. My dogs wear flat collars all the time and they are "just" tight enough to not pull over their heads, but that is all. If I cannot control the dog with a flat collar on, most of the time... the dog needs more training.

When training, will either wear a pinch collar, prong collar, wonder lead or e-collar...depending on what I am doing, when(what age and stage of training) the dog is at, where I am training, etc. They wear the training collar in addition to their flat collar.

If you do not have access to birds at this time...make it your business to get access to birds for training or start saving your money to have the dog professionally trained on birds. You need birds of some sort to train a bird dog. You also need a place for the dog to learn to run and hunt. If that means you have to get in your vehicle and drive an hour to find a place for the dog to run and hunt... so be it.

RayG

PS - I do not walk my dogs. Never have, never will. I let them run in my fenced in yard and let them run in the field. The only time I "walk" my dogs is crossing a hard road while hunting or training and coming going out of a field, to or from the vehicle.

I have and still will "slow road" dogs on foot with the dog in a harness and attached to me via a weightlifter's belt(6' wide), so I don't wreck my back. The dog is exercised at a walking pace and it will pull against me, building muscle and endurance.

shags
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Re: New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by shags » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:53 am

X2 on throwing away any bird parts, they are useless for training a bird dog, and X2 for the wonder lead.

Obtaining amd keeping birds is probably the biggest challenge in training for folks who don’t live in or near a rural area. It’s doable for most but a pain in the neck. Sometimes sending the dog for a few months at a training facility is easier.

If your dog is timid, lots of obedience can be a two edged sword. You need the dog to be a good pleasant companion, so he needs the boundaries that obedience provides. But you can’t go overboard where the dog looks for a command to know how to react in every situation. A hunting dog needs some independence and a bossy trainer can kill that. Another thing to consider is your own body language and tone of voice. Too loud and aggressive can make a timid dog moreso, too meek and mild leaves him wondering who is the boss. Cool confidence on your part can channel to your your dog.

Good luck with your pup. Enjoy the process.

SaskStallion
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Re: New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by SaskStallion » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:07 am

Thanks for the great information!
I knew I had come to the right place to get advice.

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Featherfinder
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Re: New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:14 am

I echo RayG's sentiments. The determination of whether this dog will handle the ensuing field training would have better addressed at the time of acquisition. As already mentioned by RayG, genetics goes a long way towards this end. If the sire/dam are decent hunters, the pup should be.
My experience with WPGs is that they are unlike GWPs. In this regard, they need a more gentle approach. The ones I trained were very quick studies and didn't require a firm hand. Perhaps that's what you're seeing as well?
My dogs have never seen a choke, pinch or spiked collar(s)....but that's just me. If you need to get your dog to heel, try raising your expectations. Learn some clicker processes and expect the dog to heel hands free. Then, introduce distractions and proof your training. My dogs heel hands free for the most part unless there are distractions, other dogs, people, which in all honesty is a reflection of their owner's low expectation rather than the dog's ability. :wink:

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Up North
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Re: New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by Up North » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:57 am

I think you would really benefit from a training program on DVD like Perfect Start, and Perfect Finish.

art hubbard
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Re: New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by art hubbard » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:22 am

A good book like "Training Bird Dogs by Paul Long" will help you in my opinion. Good luck.

slistoe
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Re: New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by slistoe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:49 pm

SaskStallion wrote: Here are some other questions we have that are non-hunting related:
1) We are working with him using a training collar (ie: choke chain style) and he seems to always want to pull during walks. Any ideas on getting him out of this behavior?
2) His training collar is cutting/wearing off the hair on his neck. Is this normal? Will his Griffon-like hair be ruined as a result of this? Is there something we can do to still enforce commands without this happening?
I think obedience training is hunting related :)
Never pull on a choke chain - the dog needs to learn to respect it and keep it slack. "Rap" the chain repeatedly when the dog gets away from where you want it till he returns to the proper place - if he starts to take the slack out of the CC, "rap" him again. A couple of session and the dog should be staying right beside you as you walk. After enough sessions that the dog is absolutely convinced that he should never, ever fight the lead you can transition to the flat collar.

A training collar is just that - a training collar. You put it on the dog when you are going to be training. The rest of the time the dog will wear a wide flat collar (well, all the time really 'cause you don't take it off to put on the training collar)

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Featherfinder
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Re: New to Gun Dog Training and WPG's

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:18 am

1) We don't have access to birds, but have some wings and dummies that we have acquired. How should we start him on these?
2) He is a timid dog. How long should we wait before introducing .22 cal gunfire, and what is the best way to do this?
3) With him being timid, should we be skeptical of him becoming a decent hunting partner ?
4) How often should we be doing bird training at this age?


1) For earlier training, I focus on nurturing a natural retrieve. This is critical because I have yet to work with a dog that I couldn't get to hold point. Retrieving is a whole other issue. Hence, I concentrate on this. I use canvas bumpers of various sizes, depending on the pup's age, etc.

2) You must introduce birds first and PROPERLY too. I know a chap that introduced his GSP pup to a cock pheasant! The pup was nice and bold, went to grab the pheasant. The pheasant spurred the pup. When that pup smelled birds it ran the other way!
I use a logical progression BUT I want to ensure the pup/young dog is boldly chasing birds across an open field. That is when I introduce gunfire with pup at a reasonable distance and the muzzle facing opposite the pup. It is CRITICAL that you remain casual and indifferent regardless of pup's reaction (if there is one). I tend to look far off into the horizon - keep walking with purpose - in the event pup should wheel at the sound and look to me for support. My casual, "Oh...look at that horizon.." attitude often transcends into pup and he returns to chasing. I do not use a 22 caliber or the likes because center-fire rounds have a sort of harsh, biting sound to them. I use .410 blanks ("fooom" sound) because shotguns in general make a softer sound than 22 blanks ("Crack" sound).

3) If he has the genetics (which typically precedes the acquisition) you have the odds on your side. Have you witnessed the sire and/or dam hunting?
Now, you need to do the due diligence in developing him properly.

4)Training has to have a clear and well-planned process. Watch your dog. He will tell you if he is receptive. I tell folk to use a stop-watch because time with pup can literally fly. If you don't have a solid grasp of actual time, you will likely work pup until he derails or loses focus. How long that takes can vary with your pup's fabric - breed and breeding, along with the difficulty factor in the lesson. Short and sweet works best. Trainers often have too high an expectation and work pup until they think the lesson was heading towards success. Sometimes, you have to break it down in segments while looking for the small milestones rather than what the intended or desired end result is.
Above all else, make sure YOU are in the right frame of mind to enjoy the lesson, have all the necessary equipment ready and a secure training area. I know...that's sounds fundamental but......you'd be surprised!
In closing, many believe that you should end the lesson "on a positive note". I could not disagree more. Sometimes and obstreperous pup needs to learn you are simply unimpressed. Simply end the session, walk away - no eye contact & no verbal for 15 minutes or so. He/she soon realizes, "Hmmm.....I think the boss isn't too happy with me." That too, is a salient aspect of training. Pup soon learns how you respond, your body language etc. when boss is happy versus disappointed (especially if you trial).
I have walked off a trial course with my disappointing dog while on a short lead, loaded him up into his kennel (NOTHING said), closed the kennel door, closed the back of my truck and walked away. Trust me, the message is loud and clear!

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