Partially Gun Shy

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darmento
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Partially Gun Shy

Post by darmento » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:17 am

Wondered if you guys can give me some advice.

I have a three year old Braque Francais. Very nice dog with an excellent disposition. Very birdy god. Loves to point birds and range out in the field. When I take him out hunting by myself, he is fine. He never flinches at gun fire and hunts enthusiastically all day long. However, when I take him hunting with my two sons, or with other people, and there are multiple guns going off when the birds flush, he gets intimidated and spooky. He starts walking at my side, and will not range out in the field. sometimes he even goes over to the car and just sits by the car waiting for us to finish hunting. He definitely has an issue with the sound of multiple guns going off at the same time. Sometimes when the birds flush, there can be 4 or 5 shots fired in a two-second timeframe.

All of the hunting I do is quail hunting here in Georgia.

Has anybody experienced this before? Is there any way to cure him of multiple-gunshot gunshyness? I have never seen this before. I can hunt with him just by myself if I have to, but it would be better if I could take him hunting with other people.

Thanks for your help and advice!!!!

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by DonF » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:14 pm

Easy problem to avoid. Only one person shoot's at a time. I'd get him back in the training field with a couple other people, only one with a gun. Then work up to everyone with a gun but, BUT only one person can shoot at a time! Probably won't take a lot to get him over it.
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:35 pm

DonF wrote:Easy problem to avoid. Only one person shoot's at a time. I'd get him back in the training field with a couple other people, only one with a gun. Then work up to everyone with a gun but, BUT only one person can shoot at a time! Probably won't take a lot to get him over it.
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:08 pm

He either Is or He Isn't . There Is no Partial about it .
Be nice to hear how you get on after the advice given ?
Especially if He goes back to the car.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Tooling » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:31 am

+2

I don't blame the dog one bit - I don't much care for that sort of hunting myself. No offense intended, JMO.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Urban_Redneck » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:00 am

Is the dog steady flush, shot, and fall?

I think if he was my dog, I'd consult or hire a professional trainer before he becomes full gun shy.

YMMV

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:48 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:Is the dog steady flush, shot, and fall?

I think if he was my dog, I'd consult or hire a professional trainer before he becomes full gun shy.

YMMV
The OP could do as you suggest...however, I strongly suspect that any pro worth paying will have the exact same solution" as Don T. And gonehuntin' is a pro, and has probably trained more dogs to a higher level than any five persons on this board.

FWIW, I recommend the same thing...One shooter at a time and, where possible, one shot or at most two. I have no meaningful experience with that particular breed but the OP's initial description suggests that the dog is looking to the OP for support and security. I would therefore recommend that the OP go afield with one or two hunters and leave his gun in the vehicle, standing by and in sight of the dog when the others flush and shoot.

The dog has already been "sensitized" and is reacting negatively to a barrage of heavy artillery. It needs to re-connect with the joy of pointing a bird, without the assault on its hearing. In time, the dog may accept and tolerate a second shooter and then a third. However...it may not. A lot depends on the prey drive of the individual dog and how badly it has already been traumatized. The fact that the dog hunts with joy when it is only the OP is an encouraging sign and suggests the way forward. Baby steps. Build confidence.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:25 am

Had 2 females over the years that had this problem and basically corrected both in a similar method, however, one much quicker than the other. On a side note, the one that was hard to correct, ignored thunderstorms as though she was deaf, and a male the same age, different litter, wasa great dog in the field but was a basket case during a thunderstorm. I think it proves that loud noises have no correlation to gun shyness or to helping prevent it.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Robbw » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:54 am

My current dog came to me gunshy. Couldn't even watch hunting videos because she was afraid. I bought "the Master's Voice" gunshy audio and started using that to desensitize her (still using it). After work just with birds to get her excited, then with blank gun when she was fully engaged on the bird, and then with single gunner usually only one or two shots total, I was able to hunt over her and we had a nice season. But she still doesn't like the barrage of gunfire and I think it is just going to take time and patience in the field. She is getting used to some gunfire in the background when she is hunting. Keep doing it and avoid the barrage and eventually I think mine will be fine. If not, I have no problem hunting alone with her as that is a very nice way to hunt.

My trainer also recommended that she watch action movies with us. No lie. So that may be helping to desensitize her too.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Timewise65 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:26 am

In a state park near to me we have a Trap and Skeet Club. Slightly behind the club parking lot is a very large open grassy area. I start all my young dogs by going to that area and staying back where they can hardly hear the guns going off. Over time I work them closer and closer to the parking lot, until we are standing in the parking lot. If the dogs ignore the guns when we are in the parking lot, they are ready for anything....

In this set up I can actually train where you cannot hear the gun shots, but seems to work better if I get were they can barely hear the guns to start.

If you have any area like this, you might try it....seems like something you can control like this may be the trick for your dog, that is if you have something like this you can use.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:40 am

I'd go with DonF's suggestion. I might also try going to a clay shooting range but I'd keep a good 2-300 yards back from the bangs to begin with . I'd play with the dog, I'd even give it treats and throw balls for it. Then, if the dog was o.k. with that I'd move progressively closer to the bangs.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Featherfinder » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:52 am

Quote: I think it proves that loud noises have no correlation to gun shyness or to helping prevent it.
ezzy333, IME you are 100% on the mark! That is why I no longer do the gun club thing (desensitize). I stopped many years ago. The fix is in the field/hunting and that's why the preferred way to introduce the gun is also in the field, specifically when chasing birds as a youngster. ( I know...this dog is 3.)
In fact, loud noises - my favorite is banging pots/pans when feeding a pup ?!?!?- intended to "desensitize or flood" can actually INDUCE noise sensitivity. Desensitizing is one process used to try to resolve an EXISTING phobia. If you don't create one, you won't have to resolve one.
Yes, each and every dog is different. Some have a stronger fabric and handle stress/noises/corrections like water off a duck's back. Others are too sensitive to handle those same procedures, even if you've had success with those procedures every time in the past.
I don't take many chances when training especially where young pups are concerned which brings me to a question. This dog (the OP's) is 3 years old. Was it acquired as a young pup or later in life?

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:06 pm

Taking the route of slowly introducing the bangs in proximity or frequency will determine at which point this dog 'goes back to the car' .
So what you gonna do now ?
''Urban Myth'' with the clay shoots thing ..old wives tale that may have inadvertently appeared to work for a few ,more likely something else in the process,but ain't the amount of shots at distance that curs a 'Gun shy' dog ..IME

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:04 pm

polmaise wrote:Taking the route of slowly introducing the bangs in proximity or frequency will determine at which point this dog 'goes back to the car' .
So what you gonna do now ?
''Urban Myth'' with the clay shoots thing ..old wives tale that may have inadvertently appeared to work for a few ,more likely something else in the process,but ain't the amount of shots at distance that curs a 'Gun shy' dog ..IME
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ddoyle » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:56 pm

Had a dog that never handled the gun great and was conditioned then went with a large group and all the shots caused confusion. Even more so at a game farm with the shots from other fields. Vet was adamant there can be no sympathy! Only reinforces the behavior....when dog would start to get skittish she got corrected with the collar. It was hard and got some horrible looks but saved the dog. My experience is a n of one and folks with much more experience but thought I would share it.
I think the biggest hurdle for most dogs is the multiple shots...they get conditioned to one.
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:15 am

I would never have corrected a dog for exhibiting gun-nervy behaviour. I'd have been thinking --- theoretically--- that using an e-collar when the dog showed fear would have reinforced it's fears ?

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:32 am

Trekmoor wrote:I would never have corrected a dog for exhibiting gun-nervy behaviour. I'd have been thinking --- theoretically--- that using an e-collar when the dog showed fear would have reinforced it's fears ?

Bill T.
+ 1000. A gun should result in a pleasurable experience, not correction. Vet had NO idea what he was talking about.
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:53 am

Funny how folks are critical of methods that have been used by others that worked very well...! I have trained many retrievers, some gun shy, most not! The gun club method, done slowly has worked 100% of the time. I notice that those who are 'critical' provide no experience supporting their "Theory"!

I support my method by my training experiences "using this method!" Why else would I offer this experience! To try and mislead someone?

More importantly, if you in fact have never tried this with a gun shy dog or any dog, how can you comment that it does not work? So you are offering an opinion or theory with nothing but hearsay behind it.............seems odd!

I am sure folks can make up their own minds without, speculation being offered....if you have not tried it....move on! :mrgreen:

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:34 pm

Timewise65 wrote:Funny how folks are critical of methods that have been used by others that worked very well...! I have trained many retrievers, some gun shy, most not! The gun club method, done slowly has worked 100% of the time. I notice that those who are 'critical' provide no experience supporting their "Theory"!

I support my method by my training experiences "using this method!" Why else would I offer this experience! To try and mislead someone?

More importantly, if you in fact have never tried this with a gun shy dog or any dog, how can you comment that it does not work? So you are offering an opinion or theory with nothing but hearsay behind it.............seems odd!

I am sure folks can make up their own minds without, speculation being offered....if you have not tried it....move on! :mrgreen:
I find it interesting that you have worked with that many gun shy dog's. A gun shy dog is a fairly rare animal to encounter and one that is truly GUN SHY is never going to be cured at a gun club. Most trainers will tell you a dog that is TRULY gun shy, not just nervous around loud noise, is nearly impossible to break of the habit and due to time constraints, most will refuse to try. Any yes, I have trained hundred's of retrievers and pointing dog's so have some experience in it. It has NEVER made any sense at all to me and never will. Again, a gun should be associated with a PLEASURABLE experience. Both food and birds accomplish that. The gun club method CAN work and it can also totally destroy the wrong dog. Do what makes sense.
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:24 pm

I support my Theory with Common sense.
Often many who take any dog through a progression of training successfully often profess how they achieved it. For example ,if a dog has been successfully introduced to shot for the purpose intended using 'their' way and it worked ! Doesn't mean that the same will be for every one or every dog ,the same can be said for any other individual process such as hold or delivery as examples resulting in either hard mouth or dropping the bumper ?
In the case of the OP ,this supports the Theory where somewhere along the process something has gone wrong for this dog and this handler ,by the very fact that 'they' have an issue/problem. (That's fact)
So,if the OP's dog ''Only'' exhibits behaviour which the OP has interpreted as 'Gun Shy' when there is 'Multiple/barrage' of shots ,then Introducing This dog a shot at a time closer and closer has absolutely No correlation to what triggers the dog to Quote "Run to the car" . You can spend all day at a Clay shoot if you want with a dog like that (ime) .
The earlier poster , who commented that they are surprised by some on here responses. A Truly professional Trainer of Dogs and people with dogs with specific Issues such as the OP has mentioned would Not advise taking this one to a Clay shoot as the Entry level of remedial advancement . A fool who thinks they can do this because they have had success with one or even many 'Who have Never run to the car' when a barrage of shots have gone off ,Is Not a professional Dog trainer ,but they may well have very good dogs of their own .
Now, back to the Original ?> So when it gets to the stage where there is a Barrage of shots (at a Clay shoot) I'll assume a barrage both sides of the pond are the same meaning ? ie All at the same time , and the dog 'Bolts back to the Car' what next ?
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:13 pm

[quote="gonehuntin'"][quote="Timewise65"]Funny how folks are critical of methods that have been used by others that worked very well...! I have trained many retrievers, some gun shy, most not! The gun club method, done slowly has worked 100% of the time. I notice that those who are 'critical' provide no experience supporting their "Theory"!

I find it interesting that you have worked with that many gun shy dog's. A gun shy dog is a fairly rare animal to encounter and one that is truly GUN SHY .....


Guess you misread my comments.....I qualified it by saying "Most Not" which is consistent with your observations.....you have to read the details!

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:17 pm

I support my Theory with Common sense.......

Common Sense is like Belly Buttons....everybody thinks they have some! I will go with experience every time....

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:24 pm

My Gran dad once said something similar regarding experience. I called it complacency and comfort just after he seen what could be done different,all be it with the experiences in the past .

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ddoyle » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:38 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I would never have corrected a dog for exhibiting gun-nervy behaviour. I'd have been thinking --- theoretically--- that using an e-collar when the dog showed fear would have reinforced it's fears ?

Bill T.
Bill very much respect your opinion....as said an n of 1. My main point is what do most people do for gun shyness? They coddle the dog and reassure them. Same thing you would do if you wanted to reinforce the behavior. I can tell you it was difficult but ended up with hunters saying they had never seen such a turn around in a dog.

If the dog is a wash out from gun shyness I would definitely try it again.
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by shags » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:56 pm

Punishing isn’t not coddling.

If your kid is scared of the dark, would you smack him around?

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by polmaise » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:01 pm

ddoyle wrote: If the dog is a wash out from gun shyness I would definitely try it again.
Great stuff, So in the case for this dog ,when and If the point has been reached with those who advocate taking the dog to the Clay shoot (including playing and toy and cuddly stuff) What do you advise to do when the dog 'Goes back to the car' when the barrage is done ?

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:07 pm

ddoyle wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:I would never have corrected a dog for exhibiting gun-nervy behaviour. I'd have been thinking --- theoretically--- that using an e-collar when the dog showed fear would have reinforced it's fears ?

Bill T.
Bill very much respect your opinion....as said an n of 1. My main point is what do most people do for gun shyness? They coddle the dog and reassure them. Same thing you would do if you wanted to reinforce the behavior. I can tell you it was difficult but ended up with hunters saying they had never seen such a turn around in a dog.

If the dog is a wash out from gun shyness I would definitely try it again.
Probably 99% of all dog's that people call gun shy are simply noise sensitive. A truly gun shy dog, in a hunting dog, is very, very, rare. One in a thousand or more people has ever seen one. When a gun goes off they go insane. They make take off in a straight line and run for miles, to end up quivering in a culvert. They may bolt for a truck, hide under it and bite you when you try to drag them out. They may simple fold at your feet and lay slobbering and shaking on the ground. They are truly a pitiful sight. I only worked on two like that out of hundreds of dog's I trained and I didn't fix either one.

I've pretty much tried everything on them. At one time trainer did try forcing them through it. First the dog was FF'd, then the gun was introduced with the dog on a trolley system so he couldn't escape. It never worked. Nothing I have ever heard of works. I think it is a mental defect in the dog's.

Now, you deal with quite a few dog's that are noise sensitive for one reason or another, but they're fairly easy to bring around with common sense and caution. But a gun-shy dog? No.
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Sharon » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:34 pm

Do you think it can be genetic gh?
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ddoyle » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:43 pm

polmaise wrote:
ddoyle wrote: If the dog is a wash out from gun shyness I would definitely try it again.
Great stuff, So in the case for this dog ,when and If the point has been reached with those who advocate taking the dog to the Clay shoot (including playing and toy and cuddly stuff) What do you advise to do when the dog 'Goes back to the car' when the barrage is done ?
I didn't carry and had her on leash...when she started to bolt correction and ignored! Love how people use loaded language "barrage" who has spoken about a barrage? As I stated this dog would take off just as others talked about and would crawl under truck. I understand not the first way to go and gun shyness is on us. Just my experience!
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ddoyle » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:46 pm

shags wrote:Punishing isn’t not coddling.

If your kid is scared of the dark, would you smack him around?
Treating dogs like kids is where a lot of problems start! When speaking to your kid you are explaining that you are there to protect and nothing to be a afraid of..... When your dog retrieves how do you behave? I would imagine praise and petting? Fear? Do you stroke them and try to talk them down? What would be the difference?
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:47 pm

Sharon wrote:Do you think it can be genetic gh?
My belief is that it is absolutely genetic, in the sense that the few really gun shy dog's I've seen were very skittish, spooky dog's to begin with. That is a trait that is passed on. In one way or another, all gun shyness is man made, it is just that some dog's are more prone to it than others. You know it from the time they're a pup on. In general, they are very disagreeable dog's to work with.
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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:44 am

GH, I agree that usually there is a personality trait of shyness or some say softness that shows in every dog I have seen that was really gunshy. But I am not sure you would call that genetic unless it showed itself in the whole litter or was evident in one of the parents.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:12 am

This is an interesting thread which has several different threads running through it.
Is being gun-shy or gun-nervous genetic ?..... I think probably yes based on the fact that I have seen more dogs of non-gun dog breeds show fear or nervousness in the presence of "bangs" than among dogs purpose bred to be working gundogs. We tend to only breed from the less noise-nervous dogs.

Is gun-shy or gun-nervousness caused by the trainer ? I think almost certainly that this is a very definite yes ! I am surprised more of our dogs here in Britain are not gun-nervous ! I have seen idiotic lab or spaniel owners give their pups their first "real gun" experience at big-bag driven shoots. The pup may have heard single or double bangs before then but if a man goes to a big driven shoot and his dog is to be what we call a "peg-dog" ....that is a dog that sits right beside it's owner as he fires at the many birds flushed then driven over him by the beaters, then that dog will hear it's owner fire many shots at just that one first drive. The dog will also hear the dozens of shots fired by the guns on the neighbouring pegs.

Take that one drive then multiply it's bangs by 5 -6 to account for the day's other drives and that dog will have been subjected to perhaps a thousand bangs in just one day . If , as is usually the case, the dog does not become gun nervous , it is a credit to it's breeding but not to it's owners "training !"

I have probably been fortunate as I have never had a gun-shy or a gun -nervous dog. I have owned 2 -3 dogs that were fine with shotgun bangs but were nervy of the bangs made by dummy-launchers . I sometimes wonder if we really are being kinder to puppies when we use starting pistols or launchers to get them used to bangs before using a shotgun ?
Shotguns make a duller sounding "bang" than does a launcher , launchers make more of a "crack" noise.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by shags » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:55 am

ddoyle wrote:
shags wrote:Punishing isn’t not coddling.

If your kid is scared of the dark, would you smack him around?
Treating dogs like kids is where a lot of problems start! When speaking to your kid you are explaining that you are there to protect and nothing to be a afraid of..... When your dog retrieves how do you behave? I would imagine praise and petting? Fear? Do you stroke them and try to talk them down? What would be the difference?
Holy cow.

Can you point out where it was said that anyone should ‘stroke and talk them down’ re fearful dogs?

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by polmaise » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:15 am

Trekmoor wrote:This is an interesting thread which has several different threads running through it.
I sometimes wonder if we really are being kinder to puppies when we use starting pistols or launchers to get them used to bangs before using a shotgun ?
Shotguns make a duller sounding "bang" than does a launcher , launchers make more of a "crack" noise.

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Now You've started another one . :lol:

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by DonF » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:30 am

ddoyle wrote:
shags wrote:Punishing isn’t not coddling.

If your kid is scared of the dark, would you smack him around?
Treating dogs like kids is where a lot of problems start! When speaking to your kid you are explaining that you are there to protect and nothing to be a afraid of..... When your dog retrieves how do you behave? I would imagine praise and petting? Fear? Do you stroke them and try to talk them down? What would be the difference?
I would not stroke them and try to calm them, I would go on as if nothing had happened. You try to calm them and all you really do is confirm something bad has happened. I have only see one gun shy dog in my life. It was a very nice shorthair And the moment you produced a gun if would turn and go away. That dog was gun shy. It knew exactly what caused the noise and wanted nothing to do with it. Gun shy dog's are displaying a man made problem. Noise sensitive dogs are displaying a bred in problem. I think it would be possible to get a noise sensitive dog in any litter but in hunting dog's it's just not common. Gun shy is common and a man made problem.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:55 am

Trekmoor wrote:This is an interesting thread which has several different threads running through it.
Is being gun-shy or gun-nervous genetic ?..... I think probably yes based on the fact that I have seen more dogs of non-gun dog breeds show fear or nervousness in the presence of "bangs" than among dogs purpose bred to be working gundogs. We tend to only breed from the less noise-nervous dogs.

Is gun-shy or gun-nervousness caused by the trainer ? I think almost certainly that this is a very definite yes ! I am surprised more of our dogs here in Britain are not gun-nervous ! I have seen idiotic lab or spaniel owners give their pups their first "real gun" experience at big-bag driven shoots. The pup may have heard single or double bangs before then but if a man goes to a big driven shoot and his dog is to be what we call a "peg-dog" ....that is a dog that sits right beside it's owner as he fires at the many birds flushed then driven over him by the beaters, then that dog will hear it's owner fire many shots at just that one first drive. The dog will also hear the dozens of shots fired by the guns on the neighbouring pegs.

Take that one drive then multiply it's bangs by 5 -6 to account for the day's other drives and that dog will have been subjected to perhaps a thousand bangs in just one day . If , as is usually the case, the dog does not become gun nervous , it is a credit to it's breeding but not to it's owners "training !"

I have probably been fortunate as I have never had a gun-shy or a gun -nervous dog. I have owned 2 -3 dogs that were fine with shotgun bangs but were nervy of the bangs made by dummy-launchers . I sometimes wonder if we really are being kinder to puppies when we use starting pistols or launchers to get them used to bangs before using a shotgun ?
Shotguns make a duller sounding "bang" than does a launcher , launchers make more of a "crack" noise.

Bill T.
I will answer that last question as I would not consider using anything other than a shotgun to introduce a gun. I normally use a 20 guage but am sure gauge makes no difference. It really is no difference than using a CC to introduce a check cord or a whistle to introduce a whistle. How they are used is the only concern and not what is used or even when.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by ddoyle » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:03 pm

shags wrote:
ddoyle wrote:
shags wrote:Punishing isn’t not coddling.

If your kid is scared of the dark, would you smack him around?
Treating dogs like kids is where a lot of problems start! When speaking to your kid you are explaining that you are there to protect and nothing to be a afraid of..... When your dog retrieves how do you behave? I would imagine praise and petting? Fear? Do you stroke them and try to talk them down? What would be the difference?
Holy cow.

Can you point out where it was said that anyone should ‘stroke and talk them down’ re fearful dogs?
C'mon Shags going over the top there! The comparison was to if I would smack my kid around (clearly over the top and confrontational)! I was refer to what I would do to my kid...I would hug them and talk them down about their fears and was simply pointing out the problem of treating dogs like kids....

So save your holy cows and look at the discussion!
Doyle

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by cjhills » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:34 pm

ezzy333 wrote:GH, I agree that usually there is a personality trait of shyness or some say softness that shows in every dog I have seen that was really gunshy. But I am not sure you would call that genetic unless it showed itself in the whole litter or was evident in one of the parents.

Ezzy
The general consensus is that all puppies cannot have the same genetic issues, so if all have something that is generally considered genetic It is probably environmental.
We do know that the tendency toward gunshyness is very likely genetic. but the causes are manmade..................Cj

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:03 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:GH, I agree that usually there is a personality trait of shyness or some say softness that shows in every dog I have seen that was really gunshy. But I am not sure you would call that genetic unless it showed itself in the whole litter or was evident in one of the parents.

Ezzy
The general consensus is that all puppies cannot have the same genetic issues, so if all have something that is generally considered genetic It is probably environmental.
You're gonna have to sell that to someone else. That's not a general consensus at all. Running field trial retrievers, the same traits were passed on generation to generation, trainers banked on it. A good example was a dog named Dude's Double of Nothing. He consistently threw pup's that were so spooky you couldn't even get them around strangers. So I believe that it certainly can be passed on as an issue of mental stability.

That being said, even with a spooky dog, if he ends up gun shy, it IS the man that did it.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:52 pm

It's a hard sell these days ' .....
But they keep on buying the pedigree rather than the dog...sorry ,traits ', sorry, Traits that were bred , sorry , Pedigrees that had traits that were bred , sorry, Traits that were bred by successful people in the trials . Sorry , selling dogs to people that wanted the traits that were bred by the people who had success in trials . Ooops, sorry, People buying pups that are from pedigrees from people who have had success in Trials but some of them that have been bred are sold .?

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:07 am

I agree with Gonehuntin and Polmaise's earlier words of wisdom. Consider that, if a dog's fabric is such that it is a sensitive dog in general, noise may also be something to be careful about as well. True gun-shy's are most often created and if you have an honest owner, he/she can tell you exactly how and when it happened.
Now, to address some vociferous comments: Yes, I used to do the gun club thing so I am speaking from experience. However, life is about learning and when you find something that PROVES to be better, you grow with those lessons which is why I wouldn't even consider the gun club approach today. As I said, "Dog training is a journey not a destination." In fact, I'm open minded enough to accept a process that might be just as good but doesn't take quite as long. I won't buck that!
Yes, I have had 100% success with the last 5-6 TRUE hard core gun-shys with my current process. To be honest, I don't like working with them but.....
I have a wonderful process but as already mentioned, it does take time. Using the gun club process with ANY of these dogs would have been a horrific mistake! In one case, the owner said, "If you can't fix this, put him down." Now that's motivating! I got the Brittany working beautifully but it took a LONG time. Translation: The gun club idea would likely have meant putting this wonderful perfectly capable gun dog and terrific companion down.
Finally, common sense and experience are not one-and-the-same. With common sense, we realize that experience may bring with it a better understanding of something that we felt strongly about in days gone by, yet chuckle (or shake our heads) when we look back today.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by averageguy » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:33 am

http://www.perfectionkennel.com/order-dvds.html

I was down at Jon's place last week and watched him working a young setter using the methods taught in this DVD. If you have the facilities and birds to use these methods I have seen their effectiveness on multiple dogs now, in both avoiding the problem to begin with and curing it in dogs with existing problems. If not I would find a pro trainer who employs these same techniques, with Jon being the pro I consult with as needed with my training needs. Best of luck.

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Re: Partially Gun Shy

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:25 pm

"I support my Theory with Common sense:

Often many who take any dog through a progression of training successfully often profess how they achieved it. For example ,if a dog has been successfully introduced to shot for the purpose intended using 'their' way and it worked ! Doesn't mean that the same will be for every one or every dog ,the same can be said for any other individual process such as hold or delivery as examples resulting in either hard mouth or dropping the bumper ?
In the case of the OP ,this supports the Theory where somewhere along the process something has gone wrong for this dog and this handler ,by the very fact that 'they' have an issue/problem. (That's fact)
So,if the OP's dog ''Only'' exhibits behaviour which the OP has interpreted as 'Gun Shy' when there is 'Multiple/barrage' of shots ,then Introducing This dog a shot at a time closer and closer has absolutely No correlation to what triggers the dog to Quote "Run to the car" . You can spend all day at a Clay shoot if you want with a dog like that (ime) .
The earlier poster , who commented that they are surprised by some on here responses. A Truly professional Trainer of Dogs and people with dogs with specific Issues such as the OP has mentioned would Not advise taking this one to a Clay shoot as the Entry level of remedial advancement . A fool who thinks they can do this because they have had success with one or even many 'Who have Never run to the car' when a barrage of shots have gone off ,Is Not a professional Dog trainer ,but they may well have very good dogs of their own .
Now, back to the Original ?> So when it gets to the stage where there is a Barrage of shots (at a Clay shoot) I'll assume a barrage both sides of the pond are the same meaning ? ie All at the same time , and the dog 'Bolts back to the Car' what next ?
"If we can credit a dogs intelligence in doing something right when we teach them something , surely we can credit them with the same intelligence when we don't"

Quote Polmaise circa 1989


Wow....pure gold!

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